david lloyd Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi everyone We are trying to work through an idea to use a campervan suitable for towing our Bailey Senator Indiana caravan so that we can have the best of both worlds! Generally, we are happy with the principle and confident that, apart from the initial capital outlay, the combination will be at least as economical as using our present Kia Sorento for towing and also give us much more flexibility for our own trips away and with the family. Two types are favourite at the moment - the previous generation Autosleeper Symbol or the Autosleeper Topaz on a T4 chassis - but they do differ in the overall size with the Topaz being much more carlike but the Symbol offering much more internal space for not much more external size. One of the deciding factors could well be the overall consumption. So - any of these van owners have details on overall mpg please? Many thanks, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi David, On my 2003 Fiat Ducato 2.8 jtd I can get up to 38/9 MPG. On a recent 400 mile trip across France I got about 38.92 MPG. I was doing a steady 50MPH with the cruise control. I've now done 54,000 miles and it's just about run in. We don't charge about but usually drive at about 56 MPH that's about 2000 revs. I have had the Van Aaken smart box fitted thet ups the BHP to 145, I think that figures right. I've seen a few tuggers using panel vans and the ones I've spoken to all seem very happy with the combination. I don't know the weight of your caravan but I would go for the the 2.8 engine on what ever you decide on. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted March 27, 2008 Author Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi don Thanks for that information. You know what it's like - it's so difficult not to b drawn into thi nking about a larger and larger vehicle - even if they are still panel vans! We started out by convincing ourselves that the VW T4 or T5 is about as carlike a conversion you can get (without dropping down to the micro conversions) and this fitted the plan of merely changing the 4x4 for a camper with equivalent proportions. There are innumerable conversions that would be suitable but are just on the next size up! With regards to engine size - unfortunately, I think the Symbol came in either 1.9 or 2.5 TD engine form that changed to 2.0 and 2.2 hdi versions in later years. The VW T4 version would probably be the 2.5 TD. In each case I would have considered chipping as an option but the Kia Sorento tows the caravan (1500kgs fully loaded) well with the 2.5 - 138bhp - engine and is a good match weight wise but at just over 2000 kgs kerbweight is around a 73% match (best practice is to get an 85% match or less) - a small camper at , say, 3000kgs would be a 50% match so I was thinking it should have a better power to weight ration even with a 2.5 engine? Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Remember that van conversions, like all motorhomes, are relatively heavy vehicles. With a 1,500Kg lead lined caravan, I'd think you may have more of a problem with Gross Train Weight than with simple 85% rule matching. I'd also say get the power built in, rather than chipping the engine. There's usually more to the extra horse power as supplied by the van manufacturer that the gee- gees themselves. Clutch, transmission and brakes are also often beefed up, and with an extra one and a half tonnes on the back, that beefing seems desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 David: I'm not certain which motors Symbol was fitted with in earlier years but, according to Auto-Sleepers' November 2003 brochure, it was then available with a 2.0litre/85bhp Peugeot HDi power-plant as standard and, optionally, 2.2litre/100bhp or 2.8litre/127bhp Peugeot HDi motors (the last being identical to Don Madge's Fiat engine). The contemporary VW T4-based Topaz had an 88bhp 2.5litre TDi motor as standard, with a 102bhp version as an option. Symbol's MTPLM was 3300kg and Mass in Running Order (MRO) with 88bhp motor was 2499kg, NOT allowing for the weight of water, gas, passengers, luggage or accessories. (Symbol's MRO increased to 2569kg when the more powerful motors were used.) Topaz's MTPLM was quoted as 2800kg and the MRO as 2323kg, again EXCLUDING any water, gas, passengers, luggage or accessories weight allowances. Auto-Sleepers' brochures make no mention of Gross Train Weight or trailer-weight restrictions and (as Brian advises) it's something you'd need to confirm. (I'd guess that the Symbol might be OK legally with a 1500kg caravan on the back, but I'd be wary of the Topaz.) The fuel consumption Don obtains from his Fiat-based Timberland is exceptionally low and results from travelling for long periods in a very high gear at a steady speed where the motor will hardly be ticking over (plus a very restrained right foot when cruise-control is disengaged!). My own feeling - supported by mpg figures published in MMM road tests - is that a 30mpg average for a Symbol (whatever its engine size) would be more normal and I'm doubtful that you'd get much better consumption from a Topaz. That's when the motorhomes are in 'solo' mode. None of the motors used in Symbol or Topaz match the 138bhp output of your Sorrento's engine and the MRO of either motorhome will be greater than that of your 4x4 vehicle. Based on an MRO of 2000kg, your Kia's weight-to-power (WTP) ratio would be 14.49kg-per-bhp, while the best WTP ratio for the motorhomes would be 20.23kg-per-bhp for a Symbol with 2.8litre engine. I don't know how torque figures for the Kia and Peugeot/VW motors compare, but, on the face of it, you seem to be looking at well reduced on-road performance (particularly acceleration-wise) if you choose the motorhome route. As the motorhomes weigh more than your 4x4, then the 'tug'-to-caravan weight ratio will (as you rightly say) shift in favour of the tug. Theoretically this might make towing easier, but I would have thought your Sorrento should currently tow your Bailey caravan without inducing white-knuckle moments. As the complete ensemble of motorhome and caravan will be at least 4 tonnes - significantly more than your present combination - the motorhomes' fuel consumptions will undoubtedly suffer and I'd anticipate a low-20s mpg average when towing with Symbol or Topaz. Perhaps worth adding that Symbol and Topaz are both front-wheel drive and this may present grip problems on grass-surfaced campsites. If you like Auto-Sleepers products, then the RWD Transit-based Duetto might be a better choice in this respect, but no 2-wheel drive motorhome will offer the slippery-surface grip of your 4x4 Kia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 Brian and Derek Many thanks for your excellent technical input. It's really useful having access to the technical detail in the old brochures. Since we got the Sorento I have been meticulously monitoring the mpg (sad - I know, but quite important for various reasons) and solo it averages 28.4 - towing it goes down to 22.8. I am quite a 'gentle' driver and much of this has been done with cruise control when possible - even towing. The newer models on VW T5 base vehicles are, I believe, much better in terms of power, performance and economy but are out of reach price wise having invested in the new caravan. This, and the rationale to exchange for a camper as carlike as possible but with a cassette toilet, led us to focus on the Topaz. The Symbol, with similar overall dimensions, also seemed to fit the requirements nicely. The fact that they are both Autosleeper products also made them more attractive compared to cheaper alternatives and gave us certain on board facilities (which I won't go into here) that some others do not have. Your information (and Don's) on mpg confirms my own experience with previous panel van conversions and these sort of figures seem comparable with the Sorento. The remaining issues are whether the flexibility offered by having a camper tow vehicle outweighs the benefits of tractability with the 4x4. I take particular note of your observations on the Topaz and Train Weight. On seeing one close up we did have some reservations on just how cramped the interior was compared to the slightly wider Symbol too so this put the Symbol in front. However, in following prices etc over recent weeks it has become obvious that the majority were built on either the 2.0l petrol engine or the 1.9TD and I don't think either would be suitable for this purpose. Moreover, the few 2.5TD versions I have enquired about have sold immediately - so they are in short supply! Even worse - I haven't seen any yet on the 2.8 chassis. So, I think we may have to consider either changing to a smaller (lighter) caravan or stepping up to a slightly larger motorhome with a 2.8jtd engine or, your suggestion, that the Duetto in RWD format could give us a better tow vehicle is another possibility. Earlier models of the Duetto with the 2.5TD engine do seem to be more readily available - how would this fare do you think or would it be more sensible to limit our thoughts to a conversion on the 2.8 range of engines? Many thanks, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 David, I have been looking to do something similar, at present i run an ageing Talbot Autosleeper Talisman AND a Toyota Rav4 of 1997 vintage. We fancy a 'Day Van' which could tow a touring caravan, So, like you to have the best of both worlds, and only have to run ONE vehicle. I have been thinking of a new Devon Limousin on a mwb Renault Master(with a towbar of course) and a Bailey single axle caravan with a rear seperate shower. We like CL's I am quite impressed with the new Renault/nissan/vauxhall vans both the Master and the smaller Traffic ,they ain't perfect, but you do see a lot of them around 'working for a living'. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 Hi rayisi Yes - as you can see from my avatar our last motorhome was on the Renault Master and I have to say it was about the best we have had. We bought it just before the launch of the new Sevel range and thought "have we jumped in too soon?" but, given the range of problems encountered in the early days of the sevel I'm glad we went for the Master. I have no doubt that Fiat, et al, will eventually sort out the technical faults and it will resume its' place as the leading chassis for converters though. There are a couple of conversions I like - the Devon Monaco is one - on this chassis but our original intention was to try and get a tow vehicle that was as close to carlike as possible for everyday use and economy. It does look as though we may have to rethink that strategy and start with something like the Autosleeper Duetto but, if that is the case, I have always liked the Murvi Morello and the IH Oregon layouts...................... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 Well, we got there in the end. After all our searching we have just put a deposit on a La Strada Avanti which is based on a 2001 Fiat Ducato 2.8jtd so will have power aplenty for the towing bit and has a very good layout for everyday use and a bit of touring just for the two of us. I had never seen this particular model before but Murvi have just brought out a similar layout on the new Fiat chassis called the Piccolo. It uses an excellent RIB double passenger seat on the offside for the double bed, a wordrobe and shower/toilet behind that then a kitchen across the rear doors and back up the nearside to the sliding door. With inboard fresh tank, truma water/heater, triple burner hob and space for 2 x 6kg propane cylinders it is really well equipped. Loads of storage and one design feature I have never seen on a high top van is the lockable, integrated roof locker (accessed via a ladder on the rear door) which will be great for chairs/table etc. Hope to collect in a couple of weeks' time and our first real trip will be a few weeks in France. Once again, many thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts, advice and experiences. Best regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 Well, the La Strada is on the driveway and, so far, all is well with the world. The Avanti is a really great layout. I don't think I have seen so much storage in a high top and the RIB seat system is a joy compared to the usual bed makeup systems. We haven't had the opportunity yet to use it for camping but I have treid all the life support systems and they are fine. Gas/elec water heating and gas blown air heating are both very efficient. Obviously, we shall have to be a bit more careful (than when we had the Knaus Sun Ti) on the amount we can take just in the camper but we have the caravan for longer trips that will give us all the luxuries we could possibly want. On the towing side it pulled the 1500kg Senator like a train - probably the best tow vehicle we have ever had - very stable. With a kerbweight (or MIRO) of around 2700kg the caravan is about a 55% match (with a MTPLM of 3250kg this will fall to around 56%) and the only potential problem I can see is the front wheel drive on grassy pitches etc. On the way home from Wimborne we stopped overnight at the C&CC site and were met by the new site manager who immediately asked how we got on with the combination as he was thinking of doing the same thing!! I have spent the last few days tinkering (as you do) and personalising the La Strada so that we will be ready for our trip to France in May. There are a few bits and pieces we will want to add during the coming months but have decided just to put the most essential ones on first. Things like a passenger door pocket, cab carpet and sound proofing on the underside of the bonnet. The rest can wait for now. Looking forward to getting plenty of use out of both. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 David: A classic example of motorcaravanner promiscuity - start out flirting shamelessly with dignified English roses from the Cotswolds and end up marrying a flighty German hussy! A good choice I would think for what you had in mind. I wasn't aware that La Strada had built on Fiat and I've only seen Mercedes-based versions in the UK. However, I notice from MMM's road-test listing that a full report on a Citroen Relay-based Avanti (petrol engine) was published in the May 1999 issue, which might prove useful if you can get hold of a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Derek Uzzell - 2008-04-28 8:05 AM David: A classic example of motorcaravanner promiscuity - start out flirting shamelessly with dignified English roses from the Cotswolds and end up marrying a flighty German hussy! A good choice I would think for what you had in mind. I wasn't aware that La Strada had built on Fiat and I've only seen Mercedes-based versions in the UK. However, I notice from MMM's road-test listing that a full report on a Citroen Relay-based Avanti (petrol engine) was published in the May 1999 issue, which might prove useful if you can get hold of a copy. Ah, yes - 'twas ever thus! Thank you for the info on the road test - I had it in mind to see if MMM had done a road test but wasn't sure where to ask - I will get one ordered now. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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