Foreign Lorry Drivers

[bob b]

After watching that clip.......maybe UK traffic enforcement isn't as irksome as we think !!

[Brian Kirby]

And that is only Slovenia, which is regarded as reasonably integrated into Europe!

Regarding the more general comments on foreign lorry drivers, I seem to be getting a contradictory message from those "in the trade". 

I thought there was a general feeling that UK truckers were a bit hard done by, because the higher fuel and other taxes we pay in this country made it very difficult for them to compete with firms from elsewhere in Europe.  What I seem to be reading above is that we should not bear down too heavily on these European visitors after all because, well you know, we all work fiddles while away and if we stop them doing this, we might have to play by the rules ourselves.

Don't know if this is really what you mean Guys and Gals, or whether it is just how I'm reading your comments.  But, where do you really stand? 

Do you feel there is unfair advantage to foreign trucking companies?  The complaint seems to me reaonable enough, because yours is one of a very small group of industries where not only does lower taxes etc grant commercial advantage, but that advantage can be carried right to your doorstep.  Put simply, truckers from some countries can buy, insure, and tax their trucks more cheaply than in the UK.  If their standard of living is also lower, which it often is, they can live better on lower pay than a UK driver.  If they arrive in the UK with 400 litres of fuel bought below UK rates that gains further advantage.  While here they can live in their cabs, they pay no road charges, our roads are toll free, they will buy no fuel, and they can return having spent not one penny to benefit our economy - except they will have made their delivery more cheaply than a local firm, and probably (if they are even half organised) picked up a return load a UK trucker might otherwise have delivered.

Notwithstanding this substantial advantege, about which UK firms can do virtually nothing (can you drive faster, use smarter routing, drive for longer, avoid the tolls, eat less?) there seems to be general, and very generous, sympathy for these poor old foreign drivers, even when they break our laws or take unreasonable advantage of our lax enforcement standards (for example, no on the spot fines).

So I repeat, where do you stand?  Are you really prepared to commit commercial suicide on the basis that all truckers must stick together, even if you are getting shafted in the process?

[Geof Angi]

Brian

 

Where do I stand

 

Well yes the UK trucking industry is at a disadvantage in the UK, when however we cross the water we are allowed to play under the same rules as every one else and move loads around Europe as we please even internally in any EEC country.

 

Where we lose out in the UK is the UK taxing of the business, road fund licence (when was the last time this was spent on looking after the roads), I think that you will find that the UK fuel price is one of the cheapest in the EEC if it was not for the goverments greedyness for tax, cost of the tax (purchase) on new trucks, most trucks are now built abroad and before some one says what about DAF at Leyland, they are manufactured abroad and only assembled here, so there is a cost of importing spares hence dearer to repair in the UK.

When abroad you will find that most companies will only support there own countrymen and therefore put thier goods on country of origin vehicles where as in the UK we will put it on the cheapest. So yes I do think that the UK haulage industry does have it hard but it needs to fight it's case with the goverment and then maybe it can have some influance on british industry, whats left of it, again through taxation. The problem with the UK drivers, and as an ex driver with 25 years + behind the wheel of an artic I feel that I am qualified to say this even if I can not spell, is that they are loaners and need to get together as a team.

Back in the eighties (swing that light) I was caught up in the customs work to rule at Dover, when we were arriving at the dock's on a Sunday and given a raffle ticket and told to wait until our number was called before we could get customs clearence to leave the country, normally about Wednesday, the equivlent of operation stack of today. This went on for a couple of weeks before the work to rule was lifted one Sunday night, how?, the French drivers were caught up in it and when they saw that cars were being allowed onto the ferries they drove thier vehicles across the loading ramps and locked the doors so as they could not be moved, they car drivers were not to happy and the ferries were going to lose money from tourists so they lifted the restrictions and the docks were clesred in about 5 hours, why did the British not do this?

Sorry, waffling on again

But in short I feel that the UK haulage business needs support from all agencies to make it a level playing field

 

Geof

[Brian Kirby]

In truth Geoff, it was Donna's contribution that provoked my post.  I think your points are well made, but I also think the UK transport industry is being a bit sleepy in how it responds to foreign competition.  If it were no more than a difference in pay levels between countries it would not be so bad.  However, it is far greater than that, to the point at which, it seems to me, UK hauliers are actually facing unfair competition.  It is a lot more than just taxation that causes the unfairness, but if UK is to have a transport sector that sector is going to have to force the issue, in just the same way as the European competition forces its issues with its respective governments when its interests are threatened.  The problem with the UK's obsession with its "plucky little loners" is that the loners are easily set one against another to the advantage of everyone else.  If UK firms go to the competition instead of UK hauliers, it is because most of the UK runs on the basis of "cheapest at any cost".  We have never really constructively supported our own industries.  I don't mean silly "buy British" campaigns that do no-one any good, I mean proper, constructive, mutually supportive, partnering arrangements.  The French, Italians, Germans, and Dutch are very good at this, and we should do more.  We should also do far more to encourage those loners into co-operatives, where they gain advantage and political and financial clout.

However, back to Donna.  I agree with of much of what she says, but there is a slightly uncomfortable and illogical thread running through a lot of it as well.  I think it is encapsulated in the last couple of paragraphs, which I will quote verbatim.

"Yes, some drivers choose to flout, ignore or make up the rules, but it's not confined to foreign truck drivers, we all do it at some point, we use the excuse that " It's legal in Britain, so why should I change when I go abroad". Please remember foreigners take the same stance.
....................................................................
Be not so quick to condemn, lest WE become the condemned."

To me, this seems to plead no more than because some of us ignore the rules or break the law when abroad, we should expect no better from visitors to our country.  I strongly disagree with this sentiment.  When abroad we should accept the notion we are ambassadors for the UK.  We should take the trouble to check the rules in the countries we are visiting, and we should observe them.  If we get caught doing something wrong we shouldn't whinge, we should accept the consequences - since they are our own fault.  If we do that, we earn the right to demand that visitors to our country reciprocate, and the right to criticise them when they fall short.  The problem, for me, with Donna's softer line, is that it is liable to lead to a gradual erosion of our rules and laws, as we begin to tire of upholding them in the face of others flouting them. 

Democracy only works by consent.  If the law is applied unevenly, and visitors are "let off" their lapses, some in UK will begin to feel they are unfairly picked upon if prosecuted for something they think would have been ignored if done by a foreign driver.  So, have the same standard for all, but be sure it is a reasonable standard, and then enforce it rigorously and without favour.

[donna miller]

Brian.

 

If you read my original contribution, you will note that I clearly stated I do not condone any form of illegal or dangerous driving or practices, regardless of the nationality of the driver.

One of the points you seem to be making quite strongly are that foreign haulage companies are somehow "unfair competition" to UK companies. Now, whilst I have respected and mostly considered the majority of your posts to be accurate in their content, I'm afraid when it comes to the haulage industry, you have absolutely no idea how it works.

Ideally, when a truck arrives here from Poland, the driver will deliver that load in, say, London. he would then make a collection of a load to be returned to Poland from close by. In reality, he will have to travel to Manchester to collect his Polish return load. So what they do is contact an agency to arrange a load to be taken from London to Manchester. This will pay for the fuel for the journey north.

You claim this is taking work away from UK haulage companies and therefore is an unfair practice. However, what you do not understand, is that that load will have been placed with this agency for them to obtain the cheapest possible rate from a haulier, it is commonly known as a "Back load". In other words, a truck that has delivered to London and has to return to Manchester, will take it at a highly reduced rate, usually just enough to cover fuel costs. However, many UK hauliers wont touch these loads, simply because they are not viable, eg you go to a dock or warehouse to collect a back load for Manchester, It's 3pm and you've delivered your original load. That warehouse keeps you there for 2 hours loading timber. you rope and sheet your load, its now 6pm, you set off and run out of hours at Coventry. Park up on an industrial estate, it's now 8.30pm. You take your 9 hours rest, wow lucky you, up at 5.30, no breakfast and head up to Manchester. Good going with the traffic, get there at 8am,sit in a queue to get unloaded at another warehouse for 2 1/2 hours, it's now 10.30 and you need to get back to your depot to start todays work, It's now 11.30 and the load you have just spent 20 hours collecting and delivering has earned your boss £120.00. Out of that comes £70.00 fuel, your wages @ £10.00 per hour, plus your night out payment of £25.00. Plus he has lost half of the current day. It would have been cheaper to get you to drive back empty, you would have finished about the same time, no night out payment, and you and your truck are ready to start work for a full day.

Haulage companies, UK or foreign, do not set the rates for these loads, so to suggest Johnny foreigner is taking work away from UK hauliers is very far from the truth. The rate is set by the agency, you take it or leave it.

It works exactly the same when our drivers are abroad, it's called cabotage, and it's 100% legal. You should realise that these drivers often do the work our own drivers do not want.

 

On the subject of "loner" , that is British culture in it's entirity, not just lorry drivers.

A friend of mine who drives , not only a car but also a motorhome, made a comment about the fuel protests that happened a couple of years back. he said that the lorry drivers who attempted to block the Severn bridge were spineless and moved as soon as the police told them to. After resisting the temptation to knock him out, I asked where all the car drivers in Wales had got to, or everyone with a motorhome in Wales had gone, insted of joining the self employed drivers who attempted to make a stand.

 

You may strongly disagree with some of the things I said, but have offered no valid reason for your views, other than you believe I have taken a soft stance. I seem to recall in one of your previous posts, you suggested that competition in business is a good thing. Do I take it you only mean selective competition ?

 

There is one reason and one reason only that there are so many foreign trucks on our roads, and that is because we are importing so much more produce. Who do you honestly expect to bring goods from Poland,Italy,France Germany,Lithuania over to us. Perhaps you think a UK truck should drive over there empty or with a cheap back load and return with those goods.

 

I support drivers as a whole, I've driven here and abroad for 25 years, and whilst I only drive our own truck now, I still see what goes on. I dont think it's ok for foreign drivers to escape the fines we have to pay, and I dont agree that foreign trucks pay no levy to drive on our roads, However, unlike many of you, I know that the government is to blame for this, not the drivers.

 

So (to everyone) when a foreign truck comes past you at 70 mph on the motorway, dont moan, because yesterday, you were whinging that you were stuck behind a UK truck with a limiter doing 56 mph. Can't have it both ways, can you.

 

 

 

 

[Thai Bry]

Hi Donna

Quite agree with all your points so far.

We've now stopped asking about "Back Loads", as it's costing too much in time & then there's the fair ware & tare on the vehicles. Just sticking to our usual loads, and the only time I've actually taken a back load was to help out my cousin, with a specific load coming in from Canada, which he needed back at his factory for refurb work. It was a printing press, which was then going out to India after the refurb work.

And yes I've driven abroad - in wagons - so can also speak like Donna from a little bit of experience.

Thai

[Brian Kirby]

Woah Donna!  I haven't suggested you were condoning law breaking.  What I said is that I disagree with what seemed to me to be your "soft" approach to infringements by visitors to this country, on the basis we do the same when abroad.  Kind of "you scratch my back etc".  It is that which I don't agree with because, if adopted generally, it would gradually undermine general respect for our own laws.

My comments regarding hauliers generally are based only on what I have previously read, and heard, stated by them, or stated on their behalf.

I have no axe to grind at truck drivers of whatever nationality, so long as they are observant, courteous, considerate drivers.  Most, in my experience, are all those things, and I don't think I have implied otherwise in anything I have written.  I have encountered a few who were inconsiderate, and one in Portugal who nearly wiped us out because he did not have control of his truck.  However, I have had far more scares from drivers of other vehicles than from trucks!

I'm not sure where this "motorhomers versus truckers" stuff is coming from.  I haven't read it into other posts on here: just people expressing frustration at aspects of other people's driving.  The subject at hand being "foreign lorry drivers", it is surely natural the comments would be directed that way.

However, the programme Michele saw, which I'm pretty sure was the same programme I saw, illustrated, I thought very fully, the extreme difficulty truck drivers have with a large blind spot on the nearsides of their vehicles.  For RHD trucks outside UK, and for LHD trucks in UK, that does appear to be a serious problem for them, and for everyone else around them.  It also appeared that a mirror does not provide an adequate view into the relevant area, especially on dual carriageways, where it is very difficult for the driver to determine whether another vehicle is in the overtaking lane.  This has clear dangers for all concerned, and it seems can only be properly remedied with a look down camera, linked to a monitor placed within the driver's normal field of view.

My comment regarding lack of harmonisation of HGV licences came from a Police Officer on that same programme.  I assumed he based them on his experience.  Maybe he was wrong.

The foreign truck doing 70MPH will, I think, be one of those from outside the EC area, or will have had its limiter "doctored".  From my own experience, it seems trucks within the EC area are all giverned to 100KPH max.  I have seen a few go a bit faster, but usually only by the odd 1/2 MPH, although that seldom dissuades attempts at overtaking!

I did not imply the "loner" tendency was unique to truckers, it is a British trait, and it is not one that serves us particularly well.

Finally, I had a rough idea how loads were moved around, but am grateful for the extra detail.  I have no issue over "back loads", whoever carries them.  Such practices are normal in most, if not all, forms of commerce.  This is surely no different to the "loss leader" used in retail to get the customers into the store.  I do not object to competition, why should I.  However, to be beneficial competition must be fair and, as stated above, I had the gained the impression that aspects of the enlarged EC, and differential taxation, had left British hauliers at an unfair disadvantage.

I'm glad to learn it has not, and you are generally happy with the status quo.  I shall cease worrying about you all forthwith!  :-)

[Don Madge]

I don't normally get involved with these debates but I came across this item in the times. It certainly is an eye opener.

 

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3716801.ece

 

Don

[Geof Angi]

Don

 

They already have the right under the cabartarge laws, the same as UK companies have the right to do the same in any EEC country

 

Geof