stantheman Posted May 6, 2008 Share Posted May 6, 2008 No, not another A-frame debate, just a question. Having an A-frame fitted to my wife's '99 Ford Ka in a couple of weeks. Phoned Churchill for a comprehensive insurance quote for the car: - £134 without A-frame (excess on this cover is £350) - £187 with A-frame modification (with an excess of £600!!) Is this about right, or does anyone have any better experience? Incidentally, Caravan Guard said that towing the car would have no effect upon the motorhome policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantheman Posted May 6, 2008 Author Share Posted May 6, 2008 post script - just had a word with my current insurer (SAGA), who have noted the modification and say that there will be no alteration to the policy. Should have spoken to them first!!! Thought this may be of some help to future A-framers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1ntersun Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Hi, I also tow an a-frame insured with comfort. points to mention The motorhome is insured to tow a trailer but the trailer itself is not covered by the motorhome insurance. If you are the cause of an accident the car is driverless and by definition is a trailer. Is you insurance covered for this ? You will probably find that you are only covered third party fire and theft, so in the event you can only claim if the accident is caused by the other driver When you notify your insurance co you are only telling them it is modified you still need to make sure you are properly insured if you tow car is worth a few bob Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Lee Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 We insure both vehicles with Norwich Union via Comfort. This way, if the worst comes to the worst, we can't have a situation where one insurance company says its the responsibility of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Hi, Wintersun Could you please explain a little more regarding the car insurance when it is being towed, and about the notification ?? Just to explain my position, I am thinking of taking the car to Tow-a-car to have the "A" frame fitted to it, do i need to tell my car insurance company that i have a "A" frame straight away as i don't intend to use it until later this year when we head for Spain to over winter, the reason for the question is that we are going to change insurance companies nearer the time. The second question is does the Comfort insurance provide more than 3rd party for the car when its being towed, as they are the people we were thinking of transferring the car insurance too Any help or advice would be welcome as insurance cover for using an "A" frame appears to be getting more complicated Thank you w1ntersun - 2008-05-07 4:00 PM Hi, I also tow an a-frame insured with comfort. points to mention The motorhome is insured to tow a trailer but the trailer itself is not covered by the motorhome insurance. If you are the cause of an accident the car is driverless and by definition is a trailer. Is you insurance covered for this ? You will probably find that you are only covered third party fire and theft, so in the event you can only claim if the accident is caused by the other driver When you notify your insurance co you are only telling them it is modified you still need to make sure you are properly insured if you tow car is worth a few bob Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 If you have your car modified to take A frame you will need to tell insurance company. The fitments for the A frame(at least all I've seen) are permanantly bolted to the front of car and may/will affect the NCAP rated parts of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Hi, I can't quiet remember the exact situation but i thought someone followed up the point you are making regarding th NCAP rating and if my memory is correct the person reported back something like, the people who did the rating weren't interested ??, do you remember this, as i have proberbly got it completely wrong colin - 2008-05-10 10:18 AM If you have your car modified to take A frame you will need to tell insurance company. The fitments for the A frame(at least all I've seen) are permanantly bolted to the front of car and may/will affect the NCAP rated parts of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Sorry that was one of my 'short and sweet' answers that I tend to do without going ointo details. On new cars since 2007? part of NCAP includes protection of pedestrians, this will proboly be completly negated by having two lumps of metal protruding out front, if not by any bar behind bumper. Unless your particulier model has been crash tested with A frame fittments then NCAP rating cannot apply to the crash worthyness of the vehicle. Both the above are of interest to your insurance company, but also you will find some sort of clause relating to modifications to vehicle which bolting on A frame attachment is, wheither your insurance company want to up the premium is up to them, but unless you tell them you are paying for a worthless piece of paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 colin - 2008-05-10 11:04 AM Sorry that was one of my 'short and sweet' answers that I tend to do without going ointo details. On new cars since 2007? part of NCAP includes protection of pedestrians, this will proboly be completly negated by having two lumps of metal protruding out front, if not by any bar behind bumper. Unless your particulier model has been crash tested with A frame fittments then NCAP rating cannot apply to the crash worthyness of the vehicle. Both the above are of interest to your insurance company, but also you will find some sort of clause relating to modifications to vehicle which bolting on A frame attachment is, wheither your insurance company want to up the premium is up to them, but unless you tell them you are paying for a worthless piece of paper. This has always concerned me more then the actual legalities of A frame towing. If you are unlucky enough to be involved in a serious accident with a pedestrian or a cyclist and it is discovered you have had a heavy steel bar fitted behind bumper which totally negates the crash worthiness of the vehicle I think you will be in trouble...... Furthermore, I believe that any case brought against you from your "victim" could probably cost you everything you possess and more *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Hi, How does that relate to Bull bars and Badge holders for the various groups you can belong to like the AA, RAC, Veteran Drivers club etc. do you need to tell your insurance company, Albeit from what i can understand Comfort will cover the car when an "A" frame is fitted, so i supose in answer to my own question is I proberbly need to take out the Comfort insurance as soon as i have the "A" frame fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 You fit a bull bar or similier which has not been tested you get nicked http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2007/05/23/103858/bull-bars-banned.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Insurers will shrug their shoulders while the family of the person you permanently injure will sue you for everything! Have you seen the case this week where a parent was awarded 2 million for brain damage to their child from a family holding a children’s party. Cause - an accidental kick to the head on a bouncy castle. We are getting like America - a far more litigious society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECORATION720 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Hi new to the site had an interesting chat with my insurer about towing the third party risk insurance only applies if the braked A frame can be proved that it conforms to all statutory requirements of trailer towing looked everywhere on the net but can not find an A frame that legally conforms even the best can not reverse and the requirement for breakaway in a straight line the trolley effect is a problem also braking with the servo switched off has an adverse effect. I would like to tow with one although it looks like you would be uninsured in a crash even if you where not at fault. Lorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I am sure someone will be along shortly to inform us that a completely legal & radically new A frame system has just hit the market *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 It would appear that a company called "Tow bars 2 Tow cars" may have the solution as regards A frames. An electronic senser applies the brakes on the tow vehicle and it can also be reversed. Shown at the Stratford rally, could cause another debate on the A frame situation. Only 3 types of cars are suitable, Citreon C1 / Peugeot 107 / Toyota Aygo. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Blimey! here we go again lol The 3 cars mentioned are more or less identical.... Cannot see how this solves the A frame legislation/trailer law compliance issues regards reversing. How do you control the front wheels while reversing? Has any one got this system? Perhaps they could demonstrate with a video clip or a more in depth explanation :-D Website has little or no technical information *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 Hi Stantheman i tow my car on a frame and my car and motorhome is insured with comfort, they know and show a picture on your policy of a car on tow and no extra charge, i used to be with churchill but they dont issue a green card for morocco. My cover is cheaper with comfort and they issue a green card for both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 When we towed on an A-frame the small Fiat car was insured with Fortis. This was before Comfort would cover towed cars although the m/home was insured with them. Comfort warned me that the car might not be insured while it was on tow so I insisted that Fortis issued a cover letter to this effect. It might be prudent for other motorists who tow to get assurance from their insurers that the car would still be covered comprehensively in the event of an accident. The towing vehicle's insurance will only normally cover the car for third party damage. PS Obviously you are right about the inability to reverse. This is particularly problematic in France as drivers are not allowed to tow in this way and do not understand that you cannot reverse. We had a quick method of unhitching and with two drivers it was fine or relatively so. Now on my own I won't take the risk and will be selling the A-frame in the Autumn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 Hi just a point, not all "A" frames have lumps of steel bolted across the towcar to fit the frame. Some makes have an eyebolt which goes into a factory fitted towing receptacle low down at the front of the car, usually on the passenger side, the "A" frame manufacture simply fits another one on the drivers side, when you remove the "A" frame you can remove these eyebolts leaving the car fully compliant with all the regs. Some of you guys really do seem to be pathologically against "A" frames, maybe a more open mind would be a good idea? Olley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 olley - 2008-06-19 7:17 PM Hi just a point, not all "A" frames have lumps of steel bolted across the towcar to fit the frame. Some makes have an eyebolt which goes into a factory fitted towing receptacle low down at the front of the car, usually on the passenger side, the "A" frame manufacture simply fits another one on the drivers side, when you remove the "A" frame you can remove these eyebolts leaving the car fully compliant with all the regs. Some of you guys really do seem to be pathologically against "A" frames, maybe a more open mind would be a good idea? Olley Not at all, I have no real arguement against 'A' frames, except maybe reversing, but some feel this is not an issue, but I only pointed out that all 'A' frames I've seen have more 'metal' than that which you are talking about, and the Insurance company needs telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Le Thou Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 braunston - 2008-05-10 7:45 PM Hi, How does that relate to Bull bars and Badge holders for the various groups you can belong to like the AA, RAC, Veteran Drivers club etc. do you need to tell your insurance company, Albeit from what i can understand Comfort will cover the car when an "A" frame is fitted, so i supose in answer to my own question is I proberbly need to take out the Comfort insurance as soon as i have the "A" frame fitted. I,m with Judgemental on this one, we had a Smart car which had the Tow a Car frame fitted and to do this the front cross member had to be removed and in it's place was the A frames cross bar. Not only could it compromise the strength of the chassis but striking anything with the metal protrusion on the front WOULD have been a serious issue should the situation asrisen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 olley - 2008-06-19 7:17 PM Hi just a point, not all "A" frames have lumps of steel bolted across the towcar to fit the frame. Some makes have an eyebolt which goes into a factory fitted towing receptacle low down at the front of the car, usually on the passenger side, the "A" frame manufacture simply fits another one on the drivers side, when you remove the "A" frame you can remove these eyebolts leaving the car fully compliant with all the regs. Some of you guys really do seem to be pathologically against "A" frames, maybe a more open mind would be a good idea? Olley Hardly Olley, most of us want an A frame solution. As in theory it is eminently practical but the reality of compliance with reg’s is a little more difficult to achieve. The devil is in the detail *-) Most A frame firms do not do as you say above, they fit bars behind the bumpers. Only one I believe do as you suggest, the relative newcomers in the market mentioned earlier in this thread. But they don't really come up with much technical information, so its hard to properly evaluate the merits of their system either......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 hi I had a good chat with the guy at the peter borough show and if it works as he says it sounds a good system. He uses electronic motion detectors to operate the brakes, via a small electric actuator and a bowden cable, this connects onto the brake pedal in the usual way. Because of this method the brakes do not engage as you reverse, he also claims that the braking system has been certified by VOSA or the DVLA (can't remember which) as meeting the braking efficiency required by the regs. Instead of a 7pin trailer connector he uses the new one which I think has 13pins, so the system is powered by the towing vehicle not the car. His price includes the converted car, "A" frame and conversion of your motorhome to the 13pin socket if required. He told me he only coverts cars he supplies either new or secondhand, and you only have the Aygo and its stablemates from Peugeot and Citroen to choose from. I would guess that the reason for this is that his braking certificate only applies to those cars, it also makes life easy for him as he's converting the same car all the time. I had one or two reservations, if your going down a long steep hill, and are simply maintaining a steady speed by the use of gears/brakes, as theirs no deceleration would the tow cars brakes operate? He claimed that you could reverse with his system, but I could see no reason why this would be better than any other "A" framed car, and he lost some credibility in my eyes. I didn't see the braking certificate so can't comment on the validity of it. If what he claims is correct then I think that only leaves the reversing problem, but this is not defined accurately in law, ie. no distance or ability to maneuver is stipulated, so if taken to court I guess the judge would have to decide on what was intended. Olley PS I wonder if the certificate refers only to the ability of his actuator to apply the brakes with sufficient force to meet the regs. while the car sits on a rolling road, not while its being towed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryowlgirl Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 We met a gentleman at the Lincoln Motorhome show last year from Greener Planet Motors. He has supplied us with a tow car etc and up to now we are very pleased with it. If you need more details I will have to ask Roger as I am not mechanically minded lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 A bit of topic but can someone please explain to me why anyone would want to tow a car behind a motorhome, especially if it cannot be reversed. If you get lost as much as I do this would be a nightmare. If you want to tow why not buy a caravan and tow this with you usual car, much more sensible and cheaper option. Better still stick a couple of bikes or a scooter on the back and use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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