Guest pelmetman Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 I thought you had to be clever to go to university? :D ............ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6025073/Too-students-huge-debts-prospect-earning-life-graduates-Britain.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-04 8:29 AM I thought you had to be clever to go to university? :D ............ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6025073/Too-students-huge-debts-prospect-earning-life-graduates-Britain.html Not since they gave up being educational establishments and became businesses. They're main aim now is to attract as many students ( with their loans ) as possible, regardless of ability. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 All that and to have left wet types preaching the gospel according to Corbyn at ya ... yuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-04 8:29 AM I thought you had to be clever to go to university? :D ............ Depends on which university. Oxford and Cambridge require a far higher level for admission than an ex-Polytech rebranded as a 'university'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 I've previously decided not to read DM links, but thought I'd make an exception in this case. God knows why, just a few quick checks and the story falls apart. Take the figure quoted for someone leaving university with a education degree, well the story is a little vague, but it seems to imply that they are starting out as a NQT on less than average wage, well shock horror, maybe the reporter might like to compare the average wage for a teacher to the UK average wage. As the saying goes, Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 colin - 2018-08-04 6:10 PM I've previously decided not to read DM links, but thought I'd make an exception in this case. God knows why, just a few quick checks and the story falls apart. Take the figure quoted for someone leaving university with a education degree, well the story is a little vague, but it seems to imply that they are starting out as a NQT on less than average wage, well shock horror, maybe the reporter might like to compare the average wage for a teacher to the UK average wage. As the saying goes, Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics. Eh ... What a load of tosh ... They've quoted the average wage which takes into account teachers salary doesn't it or am I missing something ... Show the rest of the world where the Mail have lied or damn lied ??? ... Looks to me like a case of blind hatred for the Mail ... How sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-08-04 7:21 PM colin - 2018-08-04 6:10 PM I've previously decided not to read DM links, but thought I'd make an exception in this case. God knows why, just a few quick checks and the story falls apart. Take the figure quoted for someone leaving university with a education degree, well the story is a little vague, but it seems to imply that they are starting out as a NQT on less than average wage, well shock horror, maybe the reporter might like to compare the average wage for a teacher to the UK average wage. As the saying goes, Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics. Eh ... What a load of tosh ... They've quoted the average wage which takes into account teachers salary doesn't it or am I missing something ... Show the rest of the world where the Mail have lied or damn lied ??? ... Looks to me like a case of blind hatred for the Mail ... How sad Yes you do seem to be missing something, they have compared a new teachers wages to the UK average wage, this is treating the readership as morons, either compare the average wage of someone with a degree with the average wage or compare someone starting out at (lets say McD's) with a new teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Hi, My son lived NFA for his final year at Uni, being happy to move on when his mates kicked him out. He left Uni with a £1,500 student debt. We had not helped him financially, other than finding him a "free to good home" Triumph Herald estate, and paying for it's tax and insurance. He never bought a book. His first job, after graduating (mid-1980s) was selling advertising space in a national newspaper, OTE £15,000. He earned approx £50,000 in his first year. His degree probably got him through the first recruitment sift, but his salary was dependent on his performance. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 colin - 2018-08-04 8:08 PM antony1969 - 2018-08-04 7:21 PM colin - 2018-08-04 6:10 PM I've previously decided not to read DM links, but thought I'd make an exception in this case. God knows why, just a few quick checks and the story falls apart. Take the figure quoted for someone leaving university with a education degree, well the story is a little vague, but it seems to imply that they are starting out as a NQT on less than average wage, well shock horror, maybe the reporter might like to compare the average wage for a teacher to the UK average wage. As the saying goes, Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics. Eh ... What a load of tosh ... They've quoted the average wage which takes into account teachers salary doesn't it or am I missing something ... Show the rest of the world where the Mail have lied or damn lied ??? ... Looks to me like a case of blind hatred for the Mail ... How sad Yes you do seem to be missing something, they have compared a new teachers wages to the UK average wage, this is treating the readership as morons, either compare the average wage of someone with a degree with the average wage or compare someone starting out at (lets say McD's) with a new teacher. "The starting salary for newly qualified teachers is currently at least £22,467, rising to £28,098 in inner London. This compares favourably to the average starting pay for all graduates who left university and entered the workforce in 2015, which was around £21,700, according to the Higher Education Statistics Agency." "According to data from the Office for National Statistics, the average electrician salary in the UK is £30,765 per year. Electricians are closely followed by plumbers, who earn an average of £29,136, and carpenters who can expect to bring home £25,729 every year." Looks to me like a electrician is the brightest spark, but all tradesmen are cleverer than teachers as they'll earn more and wont have a 50k university bill >:-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-05 8:19 AM colin - 2018-08-04 8:08 PM antony1969 - 2018-08-04 7:21 PM colin - 2018-08-04 6:10 PM I've previously decided not to read DM links, but thought I'd make an exception in this case. God knows why, just a few quick checks and the story falls apart. Take the figure quoted for someone leaving university with a education degree, well the story is a little vague, but it seems to imply that they are starting out as a NQT on less than average wage, well shock horror, maybe the reporter might like to compare the average wage for a teacher to the UK average wage. As the saying goes, Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics. Eh ... What a load of tosh ... They've quoted the average wage which takes into account teachers salary doesn't it or am I missing something ... Show the rest of the world where the Mail have lied or damn lied ??? ... Looks to me like a case of blind hatred for the Mail ... How sad Yes you do seem to be missing something, they have compared a new teachers wages to the UK average wage, this is treating the readership as morons, either compare the average wage of someone with a degree with the average wage or compare someone starting out at (lets say McD's) with a new teacher. "The starting salary for newly qualified teachers is currently at least £22,467, rising to £28,098 in inner London. This compares favourably to the average starting pay for all graduates who left university and entered the workforce in 2015, which was around £21,700, according to the Higher Education Statistics Agency." "According to data from the Office for National Statistics, the average electrician salary in the UK is £30,765 per year. Electricians are closely followed by plumbers, who earn an average of £29,136, and carpenters who can expect to bring home £25,729 every year." Looks to me like a electrician is the brightest spark, but all tradesmen are cleverer than teachers as they'll earn more and wont have a 50k university bill >:-) ............. Why can't you understand the difference between starting salary and average salary? Or the fact that Labour made further education available to all based on merit not just money (Good Idea) and the Tories have turned it into a taxpayer funded business teaching third rate degrees there is no demand for (Bad Idea) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 John52 - 2018-08-05 8:49 AM Why can't you understand the difference between starting salary and average salary? Salary ranges: England and Wales (excluding London and fringes) Inner London Outer London London fringe Headteachers Max £109,366 £116,738 £112,460 £110,448 Min £44,544 £51,991 £47,667 £45,633 https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/funding-and-salary/teacher-salaries http://www.ladbible.com/community/uk-inspirational-self-employed-london-plumber-earns-210000-a-year-in-his-mid-30s-20180204 Feel better now? :D .............. BTW I was earning more than the average headteacher back in the late 90's when I decided to semi retire ;-) .............and the only thing I left the education system with, was a grade 3 CSE in history :-> ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-05 9:38 AM John52 - 2018-08-05 8:49 AM Why can't you understand the difference between starting salary and average salary? Salary ranges: England and Wales (excluding London and fringes) Inner London Outer London London fringe Headteachers Max £109,366 £116,738 £112,460 £110,448 Min £44,544 £51,991 £47,667 £45,633 https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/funding-and-salary/teacher-salaries http://www.ladbible.com/community/uk-inspirational-self-employed-london-plumber-earns-210000-a-year-in-his-mid-30s-20180204 Feel better now? :D .............. BTW I was earning more than the average headteacher back in the late 90's when I decided to semi retire ;-) .............and the only thing I left the education system with, was a grade 3 CSE in history :-> ....... Still not a sensible comparison. You are comparing the best paid plumber in his best year with the regular pay of a job-for-life and gold plated pension Head Teacher - and ignoring working hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 John52 - 2018-08-05 10:03 AM pelmetman - 2018-08-05 9:38 AM John52 - 2018-08-05 8:49 AM Why can't you understand the difference between starting salary and average salary? Salary ranges: England and Wales (excluding London and fringes) Inner London Outer London London fringe Headteachers Max £109,366 £116,738 £112,460 £110,448 Min £44,544 £51,991 £47,667 £45,633 https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/funding-and-salary/teacher-salaries http://www.ladbible.com/community/uk-inspirational-self-employed-london-plumber-earns-210000-a-year-in-his-mid-30s-20180204 Feel better now? :D .............. BTW I was earning more than the average headteacher back in the late 90's when I decided to semi retire ;-) .............and the only thing I left the education system with, was a grade 3 CSE in history :-> ....... Still not a sensible comparison. You are comparing the best paid plumber in his best year with the regular pay of a job-for-life and gold plated pension Head Teacher - and ignoring working hours I'd take a 100k extra a year over a top headteachers pay any day of the week ;-) ........ and I'm not dumb enough to work for nowt either :D .......... "Half of all teachers work unpaid overtime: more than most other professionals in Britain, new figures reveal. In fact, they are more than twice as likely to work unpaid overtime than chief executives, according to data published by the Trades Union Congress (TUC)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-05 9:38 AM John52 - 2018-08-05 8:49 AM Why can't you understand the difference between starting salary and average salary? Salary ranges: England and Wales (excluding London and fringes) Inner London Outer London London fringe Headteachers Max £109,366 £116,738 £112,460 £110,448 Min £44,544 £51,991 £47,667 £45,633 Very poor example to use. You're trying too justify a point using the higher end of the teaching pay scale. TA's (Teaching Assts) average £11.500 - £23k. https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/job-profiles/teaching-assistant BTW I was earning more than the average headteacher back in the late 90's when I decided to semi retire ;-) .............and the only thing I left the education system with, was a grade 3 CSE in history :-> ....... Either bus drivers earn way more than they claim or was it all the rock stars you had clamouring to buy those pelmets you were knocking out in a shed? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-08-05 10:29 AM pelmetman - 2018-08-05 9:38 AM John52 - 2018-08-05 8:49 AM Why can't you understand the difference between starting salary and average salary? Salary ranges: England and Wales (excluding London and fringes) Inner London Outer London London fringe Headteachers Max £109,366 £116,738 £112,460 £110,448 Min £44,544 £51,991 £47,667 £45,633 Very poor example to use. You're trying too justify a point using the higher end of the teaching pay scale. TA's (Teaching Assts) average £11.500 - £23k. https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/job-profiles/teaching-assistant How does a teaching assistant wage compare to a trademans? ;-) .......... £11,500 to £23,000 average per year Very poorly............I was earning more than that working a average 2 day week for the last few years >:-) ........... If you recall I spent some of my income on converting Fanny to a V6 to ensure I didn't fall into the income tax bracket :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-08-05 10:29 AM Either bus drivers earn way more than they claim or was it all the rock stars you had clamouring to buy those pelmets you were knocking out in a shed? :-| I weren't fussy who I worked for ;-) .............But they all seem'd to be wealthy :D ......... The only headteacher I did work for was of a private school in Essex........and the school picked up the tab >:-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Hi, Some people want to DO a good job. Other people just want a good job While teaching is considered a good job (rather than a respected job) the will be those who will want to be teachers because it pays well ... perhaps taking jobs from those who have a vocation for teaching. Perhaps the educational equivalent of "I've got a degree, so I don't do bed-pans!" I've not encountered that, bur a nurse (who looked like a kiss-o-gram) refused to help me wash my hair two days after i had my appendix out. And another nurse, who, if she talks to me like that again, will be asked to bring me the self-discharge forms. 602 PS less than a week after my appendix came out, I finished changing my Land Rover gearbox, that my GP so rudely interupted. It hurt a bit, but not enough to stop me enjoying myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 I don't understand Dave's point. All a degree does is provide its holder with greater knowledge about a particular subject than the average person is likely to have. We all need people with degrees when there is a complex challenge that requires specialised knowledge to solve. Electricians and plumbers generally do what others decide they will do. We need them to do their bit well or the electrics or plumbing won't function correctly. But, behind the electrician or plumber is an engineer who has designed the installation, and the engineer will be educated to degree level because to design the installation he will need to have wider knowledge than the man who carries out the installation. I once queried an electrical engineer on how many sockets he could installed onto a ring main according to the IEE (now IET) Regulations. Ah yes, he said, but the regulations are for electricians. I'm an MIEE engineer, and MIEE engineers write the IEE regulations, and are not bound by them. If I calculate the diversity on the total likely load on the circuit, and it is within the capacity of the circuit wiring and circuit fuse, I can install pretty well as many sockets as I like. Even Dave's Fanny was designed by engineers (mainly MI Mech E variety) and not by mechanics. If those who study a field of knowledge to degree standard (or above) all said "well, I'll just go off and be a plumber instead of doing what interests me, because plumbers earn more than I will in my chosen field", the market for plumbers would soon be oversubscribed (so plumbers' earnings would tumble), and we'd have no plumbing engineers (members of CIBSE of CIPHE) to design the installations for plumbers to install. We need both highly educated specialists and highly trained practitioners to turn the specialists' creations into the objects, tools, instruments, structures, vehicles, ships, aircraft etc. etc. that we all use in the course of our lives. People's earnings are no guide to how clever they are. If that were true, all footballers would have PHDs. (That is not to say that someone with a PHD could not also acquire the skill to become an extremely good footballer, but how many footballers have the academic ability to gain a PHD? They are different skill sets, with different applications, to be taken up by those most suited to each.) As I asked above, what is Dave's real point in crowing that some poor kids have loaded themselves with debt as a consequence of being conned into spending three years studying a subject that does not guarantee them a higher than average salary? Somehow, it just seems to be the chant of the Luddite seeking a world in which everything is transactional, with no room for specialists, creative thinkers, or dreamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 I've always assumed that our politicians want ALL youngsters to go to university to keep the unemployment figures down. Always helpful if some come out with a useful qualification of course. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-06 6:58 PM As I asked above, what is Dave's real point in crowing that some poor kids have loaded themselves with debt as a consequence of being conned into spending three years studying a subject that does not guarantee them a higher than average salary? Somehow, it just seems to be the chant of the Luddite seeking a world in which everything is transactional, with no room for specialists, creative thinkers, or dreamers. Of course doctors and engineers etc require degree's.......... The point is universities are conning the gullible into thinking degrees are the road to nirvana, when the truth is that for many they're nothing more than fodder for their education empires *-) ........ BTW you don't need a degree to be creative or a dreamer...... a grade 3 CSE in history is enough :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 malc d - 2018-08-06 7:23 PM I've always assumed that our politicians want ALL youngsters to go to university to keep the unemployment figures down. Always helpful if some come out with a useful qualification of course. :-( Oh I think they have got easier ways of fiddling the unemployment figures now l ;-) And they are no as bothered as they were in 1979 when Thatcher got elected after the famous Saatchi & Saatchi poster of a posed unemployment queue under the caption 'Labour isn't Working' because the unemployment figure had gone above one million. I know ,miners who got £50k redundancy (when the average house price was £25k) and were encouraged by jobcentre staff to sign on sick instead of unemployed to keep the unemployment statistics down. The other extreme to what it is today with people being declared 'fit for work' on the day they die from their illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-06 6:58 PM I don't understand Dave's point. All a degree does is provide its holder with greater knowledge about a particular subject than the average person is likely to have. We all need people with degrees when there is a complex challenge that requires specialised knowledge to solve. Electricians and plumbers generally do what others decide they will do. We need them to do their bit well or the electrics or plumbing won't function correctly. But, behind the electrician or plumber is an engineer who has designed the installation, and the engineer will be educated to degree level because to design the installation he will need to have wider knowledge than the man who carries out the installation. I once queried an electrical engineer on how many sockets he could installed onto a ring main according to the IEE (now IET) Regulations. Ah yes, he said, but the regulations are for electricians. I'm an MIEE engineer, and MIEE engineers write the IEE regulations, and are not bound by them. If I calculate the diversity on the total likely load on the circuit, and it is within the capacity of the circuit wiring and circuit fuse, I can install pretty well as many sockets as I like. Even Dave's Fanny was designed by engineers (mainly MI Mech E variety) and not by mechanics. If those who study a field of knowledge to degree standard (or above) all said "well, I'll just go off and be a plumber instead of doing what interests me, because plumbers earn more than I will in my chosen field", the market for plumbers would soon be oversubscribed (so plumbers' earnings would tumble), and we'd have no plumbing engineers (members of CIBSE of CIPHE) to design the installations for plumbers to install. We need both highly educated specialists and highly trained practitioners to turn the specialists' creations into the objects, tools, instruments, structures, vehicles, ships, aircraft etc. etc. that we all use in the course of our lives. People's earnings are no guide to how clever they are. If that were true, all footballers would have PHDs. (That is not to say that someone with a PHD could not also acquire the skill to become an extremely good footballer, but how many footballers have the academic ability to gain a PHD? They are different skill sets, with different applications, to be taken up by those most suited to each.) As I asked above, what is Dave's real point in crowing that some poor kids have loaded themselves with debt as a consequence of being conned into spending three years studying a subject that does not guarantee them a higher than average salary? Somehow, it just seems to be the chant of the Luddite seeking a world in which everything is transactional, with no room for specialists, creative thinkers, or dreamers. As long as they are useful degrees. But Dr Fred Dibnah made the point that when British Industry led the world, very few British people went on to further education because only the rich could afford it. The vast majority went straight into productive industry and learnt at the sharp end - like he did. Wheras now we tend to cream off the brightest kids at the peak of their learning ability and teach them non-productive subjects instead. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-06 7:37 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-08-06 6:58 PM As I asked above, what is Dave's real point in crowing that some poor kids have loaded themselves with debt as a consequence of being conned into spending three years studying a subject that does not guarantee them a higher than average salary? Somehow, it just seems to be the chant of the Luddite seeking a world in which everything is transactional, with no room for specialists, creative thinkers, or dreamers. Of course doctors and engineers etc require degree's.......... The point is universities are conning the gullible into thinking degrees are the road to nirvana, when the truth is that for many they're nothing more than fodder for their education empires *-) ........ BTW you don't need a degree to be creative or a dreamer...... a grade 3 CSE in history is enough :D ....... I agree. But, you do ned to know enough to be able to realise your dream, and for some that may require a degree course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 John52 - 2018-08-06 10:44 PM...…………………..As long as they are useful degrees. But Dr Fred Dibnah made the point that when British Industry led the world, very few British people went on to further education because only the rich could afford it. The vast majority went straight into productive industry and learnt at the sharp end - like he did. Wheras now we tend to cream off the brightest kids at the peak of their learning ability and teach them non-productive subjects instead. :-S Useful to whom, John? Non-productive in who's opinion? Is a philosopher useless? The point about people learning at the "sharp end" is a bit illusory, IMO. Before engineers were invented, there was no formal training in engineering, so the bright, inquisitive, adaptable people working at the sharp end became engineers through trial and error. Then they wrote the rules of engineering so that others could learn from their experiences. Much more efficient than trial and error, which condemns everyone else to repeating their mistakes to arrive back at the same point. Those who learn from the pioneers add to the sum of their learning, instead of merely marking time. The resulting pile of knowledge grows until, in certain fields, it requires several years of initial learning before the student is "safe" to begin the practise. They may then merely practise what they have been taught, or they may become involved in work that involves new discovery, so that they, in turn, add to the sum of knowledge that is taught to the following generations. It is how society has evolved all its technologies. Initial trial and error, recording of what worked, and why, and passing that knowledge on to the next generation for them to exploit or grow in their turn. Universities are merely places of information exchange, where the next generation of pioneers take their first steps. The flaw in the present process in UK is that the imparting of knowledge has become transactional, so that there is an expectation of financial benefit to the student because they had to buy the initial knowledge. It isn't the principle that is flawed, IMO, but the way it is delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-07 7:35 AM I agree. But, you do ned to know enough to be able to realise your dream, and for some that may require a degree course. "Some" yes ;-) .............. But the fact is there are thousands doing unnecessary degrees that are only of benefit to the university empires *-) .......... ........and you know my views on empires >:-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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