Battery to Battery Chargers - Smart Alternator

[MikeJJ]

Hi

 

I wondered what the latest thinking is with regard to the need for a Bat-to-Bat charger like a Sterling BB1230? Or are alternative (cheaper) solutions emerging.

 

My chassis is a 2017 Mercedes Sprinter BlueEfficiency and, as far as I can tell from the build codes, with a smart alternator/regenerative system. All the electrics on this AutoSleeper are made by Sargents.

 

(I have read some of the pages from Allan's website (aandn caravans).)

 

Thanks

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that there has been some on-line discussion about this

 

https://tinyurl.com/y92z7e4h

 

[MikeJJ]

Hi Derek, yes I had read through the thread which you contributed too extensively and really was wondering what the view was a year on from that discussion.

 

It was brought back to my attention as it has recently come up on the AutoSleepers forum (following some issues which seem to have been raised with AS at the NEC show).

 

Alan's website seems to suggest that Hymer and Burstner had now developed solutions and that Sargents may follow.

 

On my previous Fiat Euro6 I found out that Pilote used the "Delete Option" when ordering the chassis and it did not come with a smart alternator.

[aandncaravan]

Mike, Be very wary of the marketing that claims super fast recharge times for B2B's, most won't even achieve a 1.5 times faster charging versus a well set-up Hymer, and nothing like the 5 times you read.

 

The only time you might achieve 2 times would be versus a very poorly set-up Motorhome, and that will be a short lived gain.

 

A B2B, like a Sterling, boosts the voltage slightly to 'Supercharge' the battery, but in a Motorhome this is done at the expense of battery life and efficiency. The loss of efficiency eventually impacts charging times.

 

This results in a Sterling B2B charging budget batteries more slowly after a few months than a conventional Alternator solution because the high voltage charging during those first few months has caused corrosion on the battery Plates. This corrosion reduces current flow, by up to 70%.

In other words, most B2B's are self defeating.

 

All battery manufacturers give recommended battery charging voltages for their batteries, and all state that going above these charge rates will result in deteriorating batteries. On Gel and AGM batteries life will be exceptionally short on this type of B2B.

 

You will note that many who use these B2B's in Motorhomes report high fluid loss, which goes hand in hand with battery corrosion/degradation. That degradation causes them to charge more slowly.

 

The best solution in your case, assuming it has not been covered by Sargent, is a Alternator voltage regulator/booster, like the Buttner/Votronic/Schaudt WA series units.

 

These connect directly to the Alternator (more efficient than a direct battery connection, but the Starter battery can be used if you wish) and the Sargent so maintain the exact charge profile that is the fastest recommended by the battery manufacturer.

Suitable for Gel, Wet and essential to get the best from AGM batteries.

 

 

The way to check if you need such a device is to monitor the habitation battery voltage when the engine is running. It should be at a consistent 14.4v for Wet habitation batteries.

Note that the Fridge should be off while this test is done.

 

 

Not sure what Sargent unit you have installed but we now have a 'Keep the Habitation area electrics alive when the engine is started' modification for the EC 225, EC400, EC 500, EC 325 and EC 328.

This mod stops the rear habitation area shutting down so you are able to see on the LCD screen above the door what voltage/current is being applied to the habitation batteries by the Alternator.

 

 

Be wary about having different Habitation area batteries to that 'under the bonnet' as a smart Alternator set up for AGM batteries may put out a battery damaging 14.9v for any Gel Habitation batteries?

A Schaudt/Votronic/Buttner 'Alternator voltage regulator' fits between the Alternator and the Sargent Power Controller so only regulates the habitation battery charging, not the Starter battery.

 

 

Sterling B2B's, and the like, work ok on boats because the Electronics are so much simpler and the battery banks are so much bigger that the 'boost charge' is 'diminished' across the large often multiple battery banks.

But as there is little other option on a Boat, not many 230v EHU points out at sea, it is also regarded as an acceptable compromise.

 

 

 

 

[MikeJJ]

Hi Allan,

 

Your insightful comments are really appreciated.

 

I downloaded details of the Schaudt WA 121525 and compared that to a Sterling BB1230. They seem to be connected to the batteries in exactly the same way; obviously the charging profiles may be different.

 

Does that mean that the Schaudt WA will cause the same long term issue as the Sterling?

 

(I note that the German press seems to welcome the new Schaudt box)

[aandncaravan]

I think you might have misunderstood the Schaudt WA121525 (121545 a 45amp version) wiring diagram as the unit goes between the Alternator/Starter battery and the Sargent/Schaudt Power controller/charger box. Ideally located as close to the Sargent/Schaudt as possible.

The first wiring diagram is the relevant one, see the full document at the bottom of the web page "Batttery to Battery chargers" : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-to-battery-chargers.php

 

It doesn't connect to the Habitation batteries directly, so effectively the Sargent Power Distribution box doesn't know anything has changed, it now just 'sees' a constant 14.4v regardless of what the Alternator is actually outputting.

The advantage of this is that no functionality in the Sargent, Schaudt, Calira, etc is altered or short circuited as it would be in the normal 'Battery to Battery charger' set-up.

 

The WA 121xx series units only charge the batteries at the maximum recommended by the battery manufacturers, it doesn't 'over boost' them like the Sterling, and most other B2B's, do.

 

Apart from a rock steady 14.4v, the other main advantage is zero voltage drop. Many Sargent wired vehicles will have upto a 0.5v drop at the habitation battery by the time the Alternator 14.4v gets through all the connections/relays/wiring before arriving at the Habitation battery.

 

One other thing, so long as the wiring is adequate for the current to the battery bank, you do not need to increase the wiring thickness, it just connects into the existing wiring from the Alternator/Starter battery to the Sargent. This is because any minor voltage drop that might normally occur from 'thin cabling' will be catered for by the WA121xx, so long as it is located at the Sargent and not the Alternator end.

 

If you can connect it directly to the Alternator, both the B+ terminal and a negative/Earth, it will take any poor engine Earth issues out of the equation and also improve efficiency.

 

 

 

It is a neat easy to install unit that would improve the Alternator charging on most non German built vehicles.

 

Because it is designed to fit in ALL Motorhomes without impacting any existing functionality, we are trying not to call it a B2B so it doesn't get tarred with the same brush.

 

For a supplier try Brownhills, they advertise Schaudt Solar regulators and OVP's on eBay at competitive prices.

 

 

 

[ilreeves]

Have to agree 100%

I had a Sterling B2B charger fitted 2 years ago. The best charge I ever got out of it was about 2 x normal. Then after a few months my charge would never hold as long as it used to. When I looked at the battery levels thay were way down.

 

Got 2 new batteries and they now charge from 10-18amps when connected via a clipper BM2, but check the levels on a monthly basis. So I do now get quicker charge bot nowher near 5 times faster.

 

What is this mod for the sargernt. I have the EC 450 and when traveling the kids are in the dark in the back. Will the 12v now work if I have this mod done.

 

where can I get it done and how much. I am from the merseyside area.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Ilreeves, A Motorhome standard Alternator with quality wiring and relays will charge two quality batteries at 10 - 25amps. Ask most Hymer owners how much Alternator charge they see on discharged batteries on Start-up. .

 

Just improving the wiring, Batteries and relays on most Motorhomes with poor Alternator charging will give a better overall, long term improvement than a Sterling B2B, because the Sterling will quickly degrade the batteries..

 

 

 

The modification we do to the Sargent EC range stops it shutting down the Habitation 12v when the engine is started. This allows you to see the Alternator charge into the batteries, to asses how good or bad it is.

So yes your children will be safer on the move, belted up, sitting quietly watching TV rather than the usual tendency to wander around a dark moving Motorhome because they get bored.

If you have children it makes a big difference to the journey as all the 12v Games/Laptop power points remain 'alive' as well.

 

 

You can also 'boost' the batteries using the engine in an emergency without being plunged into darkness as soon as the engine starts.

 

You will be able to use your Motorhome exactly as the rest of the entire World do. Only U.K built Motorhomes have the strange way of shutting down the 12v when the engine starts.

 

 

We build in a covert switch that allows the system to revert back to original functionality, should that be required for some reason.

The modification is all within the ECxxx box so it can be swapped with a standard box, again to revert to original.

No modifications are done outside the ECxxx, which works exactly as before but keeps the 12v electrics alive.

 

The modification is usually carried out at the same time as a charger repair but we have already carried out some mods on brand new units for Dealers where the new buyers specified they didn't want the habitation 12v to shutdown.

A Solar regulator upgrade, to the high efficiency Votronic, is also available at the same time on those units that have the not so good built in 'generic' Solar regulators.

 

 

You can get it done anywhere, the Dealer/Auto electrician just needs to send us the old box and we send back one that is modified, yet straightforward to refit.

Goes back in exactly as it came out, no wiring changes, etc.

 

More info on our Sargent webpage : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/sargent.php

 

 

[arthur49]

aandncaravan - 2017-12-09 11:04 AM

 

Just improving the wiring, Batteries and relays on most Motorhomes with poor Alternator charging will give a better overall, long term improvement than a Sterling B2B, because the Sterling will quickly degrade the batteries..

 

 

Mmmhhh. I respect your knowledge Alan but you do seem to have a thing about B2B.

 

I have used a Sterling B2B for three and a half years. Two cheapo 100Ah batteries from Eurocarparts also three and a half years old. These were professionally drop tested at service six months ago and found to be fine and my experience is they cope well with a load off EHU.

 

I installed B2B partly because my EC155 is basic - never varies from 13.8v, unless a load is applied whilst on EHU.

 

However, the B2B does have its weaknesses. That is why I use a remote controller to switch it off when I think the batteries have had enough. I'm also happy to replace my batteries after three and a half years ..... for LFD90s!

 

Incidentally you hold Votronic in high regard I seem to recall. They manufacture a B2B?

[kevina]

Yes, Votronic do manufacture them and I've been using one very effectively with my Victron gel batteries for over 4 years. It has an input for the d+ signal to automatically turn it off when the igbition is turned off. I think they have a version for vehicles with smart alternators.

 

Ours gets serious usage skiing in the Alps without hookup for 2 months each year, plus a 2 month autumn tour. If the batteries are below about 70% it will initially charge at the full 45A and up tp 14..4v (temperature compensated). If batteries are over about 85% the initial charge will be something like 15A. We regularly start with the batteries beow 50% so get a much better charge rate than the original Rapido 15A ish (and rapidly reducing) which was also at a much lower voltage.

 

It works for us, we couldn't do anything like what we now achieve previously, in fact our Banner batteries lasted 1 short season.

[aandncaravan]

Arthur, You are right we do have a thing about the battery damaging Sterling, because they degrade the batteries which then overload the mains chargers and Alternators. But not about the other "Intelligent Alternator Charging Solutions".

 

You are skilled and understand batteries and battery charging so are able to limit the Sterling 'over boost' damaging charge.

If I remember rightly, you have configured your B2B to charge at lower voltage. i.e. at the battery manufacturers limit, and you turn the Sterling off remotely before battery over charge damage occurs?.

 

Under these circumstances the damage to the batteries, won't occur. It will be as though the batteries were hooked up to a quality 'standard' Alternator set-up, but without the voltage drop. You have pretty much configured it like the Schaudt units we recommend above.

 

 

Kevina is also is using an intelligent B2B that charges at the maximum voltage the battery recommended by the battery manufacturer, not a Sterling's 14.7v 'overboost' voltage.

He notes that he sees 14.4v which is the same as a well configured standard set-up, not the Sterlings 'Overboost'.

 

 

Standard Alternator charging set-ups vary enormously from a Hymer's single fat cable (no connectors) run from the Starter Battery fuse direct to the Elektroblock. There is then a single fat cable from there direct to the Starter Habitation batteries, which you will find quite close to the ELektroblock. Unlike some vehicles that put the batteries in the Garage just about as far away as you can get from the Alternator.

Again a Hymer will have no connectors in the prime cables apart from the seriously heavy duty ones at the Elektroblock.

Typically the voltage at the habitation battery will be 14.3/14.4v, almost zero voltage drop over the Alternators 14.4v delivered to the Starter battery.

 

On UK built Motorhomes not enough thought is given to the Alternator charging, cables undersized, lots of connectors, etc.

Typically an Elddis will deliver less than 14.0v to the habitation battery, especially when the Fridge is on 12v. The Fridge wiring is usually poorly thought out, often wired from the habitation battery not the Starter battery. That can introduce a 0.3v drop on it's own.

 

This all has an impact on charging, as you know the ''trickle' charge of a mains charger is typically 13.8v so a Alternator voltage that has dropped to 13.9 by the time it reaches the Habitation battery is going to 'trickle' charge the Habitation battery.

Some Motorhomes have cabling at the Habitation batteries that is little better than Bell Wire.

 

If you put in quality cable/relays from the Alternator to the habitation battery on the typical Motorhome you will see the Habitation battery voltage match that of the Alternator. That is close to the best there is, you don't need a Sterling B2B 40amp unit at £1,000 inc Install costs and VAT.

 

 

There are good B2b's and bad ones, Kevina has a quality Votronic, you have a Sterling configured to limit it's damaging 'overboost' feature, effectively acknowledging what we say above.

 

 

ILreeves had exactly the experiences we suggest will happen, short battery life and high fluid loss. That was with a B2B that works by battery damaging 'overboosting' the batteries, like a Sterling.

He was locky he recognised the batteries degrading and replaced them before they killed the Alternator and Mains charger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[arthur49]

aandncaravan - 2017-12-11 10:45 AM

 

If I remember rightly, you have configured your B2B to charge at lower voltage. i.e. at the battery manufacturers limit, and you turn the Sterling off remotely before battery over charge damage occurs?.

 

If you put in quality cable/relays from the Alternator to the habitation battery on the typical Motorhome you will see the Habitation battery voltage match that of the Alternator. That is close to the best there is, you don't need a Sterling B2B 40amp unit at £1,000 inc Install costs and VAT.

 

 

Sorry Allan, I removed an 'l' from your name in earlier post!

 

Yes, I have B2B set to charge initially at 14.4v. After 2 hours or so driving, it then reduces to about 13.4v from memory. One weakness of B2B as I've highlighted before is that I rarely drive more than 2 hours without a pee/coffee stop. Restart engine and B2B starts off again at 14.4v! I have never run down my batteries so much that I need more than 27A (at 14.4v), and then only for minutes as the B2B starts to wind down amps, with no intervention from me.

 

So, to prevent any risk of overcharging my batteries, I switch off B2B remotely when I think thats enough, certainly well within 2 hours.

 

My EC155 regardless of wiring size and/or split charge quality is not capable of efficiently charging 200Ah of batteries by EHU or alternator?

 

So, in summary Allan as I've oft said I respect your knowledge and expertise but I do believe that a Sterling B2B, carefully set and managed, is a good charging option. Maybe it should be more sophisticated though?

 

Incidentally £1000 to supply and fit a B2B? I had mine done by Dave Newell in April 2014 - I can't remember the cost but it was nowhere near four figures. RoadPro website lists it at under £350, supply only.

[aandncaravan]

Arthur, I am not sure of your argument as you seem to be agreeing with most of what I wrote, with the exception of the total cost for a Sterling, which with fitting and VAT is usually around £600 to £1,200 depending on the battery bank size, ease of installation, etc.

 

What you have done with your system is turn off the faster 'Overboost' charging which Sterling says is it's greatest asset.

You have 'turned it down' to 14.4v which won't cause battery damage, pretty much the same as a standard Hymer.

 

That charging voltage you have downgraded your Sterling to, can be matched by a good wiring and relay set-up, as evidenced by every healthy Hymer..

So while you may have turned off 'Overboost' charging, I am not sure that is quite in the category of a well setup B2B?

 

 

An EC155 can charge the habitation battery at close on 14.4v with just cabling and wiring changes. Much advice on this is given at the bottom of the "Add a Second Battery?" webpage : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php

 

The EC155 isn't a great unit and has a poor standard mains charger which as you note is a low 13.8v, but the Alternator charge just passes through, the EC155 doesn't place any restriction on the charge.

A simple, low rated Split charge relay and thin cabling is all that normally connects the two batteries together when D+ is triggered.

 

Just changing the quality of that relay, as per advice on the webpage, can make a big difference because the connectors are usually so poor and the Relay contact area so small.

The bigger 100amp relay we suggest (£9 on eBay) is not just about handling extra current, but has bigger switching contacts which give lower voltage drop and are less resistant to burning. The ones we suggest also have large screw connectors, not weedy 6.3mm Spade connectors, again reducing resistance.

 

It all makes a difference, especially if the original Split Charge relay is mounted in a harsh environment under the bonnet where heat and corrosion can take their toll.

Along with the cabling changes we suggest on the webpage, the difference should be zero voltage drop.

 

 

For probably less than £50 for cabling, connectors and relay, anyone with the skills can transform an EC155 Alternator charging solution into the performance you have now, without fitting a Sterling B2B.

 

 

I think that is a much more sensible route than using a Sterling B2B with it's side effect of bypassing the functionality of the Motorhomes Power Controller, as well as adding an extra level of unreliability.

Several people on the forums have reported Sterling B2B failures and we have found Motorhomes with these units also have a higher incidence of Alternator failure.

 

 

Some of the Sterling B2B's trigger on a voltage rise at the Starter battery, rather than the more sensible D+ Alternator signal. That means that anytime you charge the Starter with mains 230v, Solar, etc. the B2B can trigger.

All the Intelligent Alternator charge units we know of, like the Votronic or Schaudt, only use D+ of the Alternator as the trigger.

 

 

 

[arthur49]

aandncaravan - 2017-12-11 4:39 PM

 

Arthur, I am not sure of your argument as you seem to be agreeing with most of what I wrote, with the exception of the total cost for a Sterling, which with fitting and VAT is usually around £600 to £1,200 depending on the battery bank size, ease of installation, etc.

 

 

I can't compete technically Allan but my experience is that a B2B was a good solution at the time I opted for it ...... and you agreed.

 

Took me a while to find it but check out this thread, and in particular your post 26.6.16 1.23pm http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Battery-to-Battery-chargers-B2B-and-Solar-Power-/42261/31/

[aandncaravan]

Arthur, that whole thread is about the disadvantages of a B2B like the Sterling and how damaging they can be in so many ways.

It painted the opposite side of the advertised 'advantages' to such an extent that it generated a lot of 'heated dicussion'.

 

You then emailed to say you had one fitted 3 years previously and despite the Sterling flaws when used in a Motorhome, you seemed to be knowledgeable enough to limit the damage and work around the limitations. I even replied with, " You are probably the exception to the rule that we see, in that you understand the B2B does give the batteries a hard time so you don't leave it to it's own devices, intervening to manage the system yourself."

Which history shows you have done.

 

 

 

One of the last posts was from the highly respected Velotron, who wrote :

 

 

"Lots of marketing BS on the Sterling power website re B2B's!"

 

and

 

"A far cheaper option to the B2B for poorly wired vans is a length of 4AWG welding cable and a voltage sensitive relay. Just wire this in via a fuse direct from the van battery to your LB's (remembering to disable the vans built in charging system), and you will see 90% of the benefits of the B2B with none of the negatives and save yourself a pile of cash. With the new van, if I did not already have the B2B then I suspect this would have been my route. When I sold the old van, this is exactly the system that I put in it in place of the sterling B2B".

 

 

He has fitted better cabling and relays, just as we suggest, and quotes 90% of the benefits of a B2B with very low outlay.

 

Those figures show just how far off the mark the claims of even 2 times faster charging for a B2B are on a well set up system.

 

 

[rogher]

I put B2B into my previous van, to charge the habitation battery between stops (no solar) and it did the trick wonderfully. I took no measurements, so cannot say how good it was but, one time that the battery was flattened, I ran the engine on tick-over to recharge it and it was surprising how quickly it came back to life.

The advantage of installing individual components is that they are independent and can be removed if necessary. The "black box" controllers at the centre of a van's 12V system are largely undocumented, so you have no idea what they are actually doing. Bearing in mind that they are sold to manufacturers for low cost production, I doubt they will perform as well as discrete components which can be tailored to individual requirements. In theory the B2B will address the charging requirements of a particular battery chemistry, so overcharging should be difficult (unless, perhaps, you are frequently switching the engine off and the charger starts its cycle over again).

[aandncaravan]

A Sterling puts up to 14.8v into a Wet Battery designed for 14.4v, how is that not 'over charging' it?

 

[lennyhb]

I agree with Allen about the Hymer wiring well up to scratch and you do get a good charge into the hab batteries.

I got a bit of a shock last week I was helping my neighbour sort out the wiring on his Auto Sleeper to get rid of the stupid switch off of the hab electrics when driving, I just couldn't believe how undersized the wiring was. It took a lot of persuasion and he is now going to rewire the van with decent size cables.

 

Even with the Hymer's good wiring you only get a 20-25 amp charge for the first ½ hour or so, as once the internal resistance and the terminal potential of the battery increases the charge rate drops to 8-10 amps it will take an very long drive to charge my 240 a/h of batteries.

 

I have just bought a 3rd 100 watt solar panel and have been thinking about a 4th and a B2B. On the B2B's I came to the conclusion that a Votronic unit was much better than the Sterling but a lot of dosh so put the idea on hold.

 

All change I've bought a Sterling BB1260. Why? A Funster (Motorhome Fun Member) gave us the heads up to a guy on eBay selling used ones that are the current type 49 model for £135, at that price worth a punt.

Not too worried about my batteries as the charge current will be split over 3 batteries and Hymer fit uprated alternators so no worries their either. Also if I only achieve 1.5-2 times the normal current I'll be happy with that for 135 quid.

 

I do wonder if a lot of Allen's comments are based on the older models as the the current units are supposed to output proper 3 stage charging. They have setting for 7 different types of battery and a custom setting where you can program the charging parameters yourself.

e.g. on the Gel II setting the bulk charge is at 14.4v the absorption charge period at 14v and a float charge at 13.8v.

The new units are also designed for use with smart alternators. Hymer's on Fiats do not have the smart alternator.

 

What is a bit worrying with the Sterling unit, is that most people fit them using the basic configuration where they work by voltage sensing of the starter battery, turning on at 13.6v and off at 13.3 volts. This gives problems if you have a solar panel that feeds the starter battery either via a dual output regulator or Battery Master or solar split charge relay. In this situation the starter battery voltage rises with the solar input and the B2B turns on, the voltage drops and it turns off and it constantly cycles.

 

I pointed this out to a friend who had just fitted one to his new van, he went and checked and found it cycling. I got him to fit a 100 amp relay on the output switched by the D+ circuit. I didn't realise there is an ignition switch facility built into the latest units.

 

There are 2 modes of operation with the ignition feed the regen mode for smart alternators appears a bit dodgy as if the ignition is left on it will carry on charging the hab batteries until the starter battery drops to 10v, not a good idea .

In the standard ignition mode it switches from standby to on providing starter battery is over 13.6v a much safer option and switches off when ignition is turned off.

 

I'm looking at wiring the ignition wire to one of my D+ relays so it will only turn on with the engine running, should work.

 

[aandncaravan]

Lenny, you are right this is primarily about the 'Old style' B2B's rather than the new breed of Intelligent Alternator to Battery chargers, as we state through out.

But even so your new style Sterling BB1260 charges Wet batteries at 14.8v, not the 14.4v ideal for long life. That is how fast chargers work, you can't get a battery to fast charge any other way and there will be a penalty to pay because it goes against battery manufacturer advice..

 

Your 240Ah battery bank is drawing all the power it needs for long life, if you Force charge them, they will be degraded.

That is a fact of battery life and why all 'proper' chargers from Alternators to mains chargers have 14.4v as their limit for wet batteries.

 

Selecting a lower charge rate from the selection offered may prevent battery degradation, but you have also turned off the fast charging feature these are being installed for.

It will still work, but little better than a good 're-cabling' solution, exactly as Velotron notes.

 

 

The only exception we know of to the above is the special Ford Silver batteries as fitted to the older Transit vans (not Motorhomes), Mondeos, Focus, etc where the intelligent Alternator would charge at 16 + volts for a LIMITED time only on Start-up while the battery was cold. As soon as it's temperature rose the charge dropped off, even going down to 13.8v if it was hot.

Even so the Ford Silver wet batteries had the technology inside to work with this system and it's higher short term voltage.

An aftermarket conventional battery degraded quickly in these vehicles, lasting less than 2 years, whereas the Silver batteries typically had close on a 9 year life. Such is the effect of faster charging inappropriately.

 

I can build you a charger that Supercharges a battery at 16+volts and triple speed, but you won't charge the battery very many times. :)

 

 

No doubt you will still use the BB1260, so can I suggest that to keep your Schaudt installation functioning as normal (so you can see the charge on the existing display, etc) you consider wiring the output of the BB1260 directly into the back of the EBL unit?

Especially so if it is a EBL 101, EBL 269, EBL 220, etc as those will give errors, and even shutdown, if they are not aware of all charging.

 

Take the negative output of the BBxxx to the Habitation battery neg - terminal, but feed the Positive into the Red/Rot connector on the rear of the EBL and remove and insulate the existing cable in the Red/Rot/Starter battery connection port.

 

You will then have the B2B sitting between the Starter battery and the EBL Starter battery input, so while the voltages/current into the EBL may now be different, functionally it will be as before with the EBL passing the charge through to the Habitation battery and not being bypassed.

 

 

Most EBL's have a spare D+ output available to trigger aftermarket satellite systems, etc.

If you want to know which EBL amplified D+ trigger connector pin to use, email us with details of the EBL you have fitted.

 

 

[Steve928]

lennyhb - 2017-12-13 11:13 AM

I do wonder if a lot of Allen's comments are based on the older models as the the current units are supposed to output proper 3 stage charging. They have setting for 7 different types of battery and a custom setting where you can program the charging parameters yourself.

e.g. on the Gel II setting the bulk charge is at 14.4v the absorption charge period at 14v and a float charge at 13.8v.

 

I wonder also as I've been delighted with the performance of my Sterling B2B. Having selected the correct charging voltages from the 7 or 8 available it's performed faultlessly over the past 18 months and the battery is always well-charged and kept in good condition.

 

A B2B was by far the simplest method of adding decent charging capability to my Bailey which ex-factory charges the hab. battery via a 5A mini-fuse in the converter's interface.

[aandncaravan]

Steve928, To say the batteries are charged and working well applies to 95% of Motorhomes without a Sterling.

 

How are you determining the state of the batteries as being perfect, how do you know they are not down to 70% already which is what we would expect after about 18 months?

What tests have you carried out on charging prior to the install and monitoring done since, to come to your conclusions?

You may think it is working well, but could there have been a better simpler, cheaper solution?

 

 

Ask yourself why the Schaudt, Buttner and Votronic's 'Intelligent Alternator Powered chargers' only charge a wet battery at 14.4v?

 

They are Motorhome aware, Motorhome specific electronic specialist manufacturers. Schaudt equipment is installed in more Motorhomes worldwide than any other manufacturer so should they know more than most.

Why don't they overcharge batteries at 14.8v - 15.0v?

 

If overcharging Motorhome batteries was the best option, I am sure they would have taken it.

 

Rather than disagree with me, why don't you ring Yuasa Technical and ask them is it ok to fast charge one of their standard wet batteries at 14.8v and what will be the impact on it's life?

 

Contrary to your opinion, I would not expect your habitation battery see the end of the summer with even 60% capacity remaining.

 

[lennyhb]

aandncaravan - 2017-12-13 1:55 PM

 

Lenny, you are right this is primarily about the 'Old style' B2B's rather than the new breed of Intelligent Alternator to Battery chargers, as we state through out.

But even so your new style Sterling BB1260 charges Wet batteries at 14.8v, not the 14.4v ideal for long life. That is how fast chargers work, you can't get a battery to fast charge any other way and there will be a penalty to pay because it goes against battery manufacturer advice..

They are not quite as bad as that the bulk charge is at 14.6v for wet cells.

 

Your 240Ah battery bank is drawing all the power it needs for long life, if you Force charge them, they will be degraded.

I have Sonnenschein Gel's, the bulk charge voltage when set to Gel II is 14.4v which complies with Sonnenschein recommendation of 2.4v per cell. This of course assumes the B2B performs within its spec.

 

No doubt you will still use the BB1260, so can I suggest that to keep your Schaudt installation functioning as normal (so you can see the charge on the existing display, etc) you consider wiring the output of the BB1260 directly into the back of the EBL unit?

Especially so if it is a EBL 101, EBL 269, EBL 220, etc as those will give errors, and even shutdown, if they are not aware of all charging.

Elektroblock is an EBL 30 and like most of the EBL's fitted to modern vans there is no charge/discharge indication just a strip of leds giving approx voltage. I will be connecting the Neg to the shunt of the BVM700. Otherwise I was going to connect as you suggest.

 

Most EBL's have a spare D+ output available to trigger aftermarket satellite systems, etc.

If you want to know which EBL amplified D+ trigger connector pin to use, email us with details of the EBL you have fitted.

Under the passenger seat there is an AD03 with a big bank of relays connected to it so should be easy to find a suitable D+ connection.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Steve928]

aandncaravan - 2017-12-13 2:38 PM

 

Steve928, To say the batteries are charged and working well applies to 95% of Motorhomes without a Sterling.

 

How are you determining the state of the batteries as being perfect, how do you know they are not down to 70% already which is what we would expect after about 18 months?

What tests have you carried out on charging prior to the install and monitoring done since, to come to your conclusions?

You may think it is working well, but could there have been a better simpler, cheaper solution?

 

 

Ask yourself why the Schaudt, Buttner and Votronic's 'Intelligent Alternator Powered chargers' only charge a wet battery at 14.4v?

 

They are Motorhome aware, Motorhome specific electronic specialist manufacturers. Schaudt equipment is installed in more Motorhomes worldwide than any other manufacturer so should they know more than most.

Why don't they overcharge batteries at 14.8v - 15.0v?

 

If overcharging Motorhome batteries was the best option, I am sure they would have taken it.

 

Rather than disagree with me, why don't you ring Yuasa Technical and ask them is it ok to fast charge one of their standard wet batteries at 14.8v and what will be the impact on it's life?

 

Contrary to your opinion, I would not expect your habitation battery see the end of the summer with even 60% capacity remaining.

 

Before you went off on a rant perhaps you should have asked what charge voltage I selected on my Sterling B2B. It's 14.4 :-D

[aandncaravan]

Steve928, so you have installed a B2B with fast charging and then disabled fast charging.....................

Like I asked, were there other better, simpler, cheaper ways than a Stirling B2B? The answer is obviously a yes.

And that is the point of this thread to suggest people do not get taken in, by what Velotron describes as "BS", on the website and I say are half truths.

 

 

 

Lenny The manual indicates it is 14.8v not 14.6v, it states :

"Non sealed/sealed lead acid, where you can unscrew the lid of the battery and are able to top it

up with water, these are by far the best type for fast charging and long life. ( max voltage 14.8 )"

 

One of the diagrams early in the manual it also shows

"Yellow LED - Open Lead Wet Acid 14.8V / 20°C"

 

 

And in another section :

 

"My advise is where possible use the open lead acid batteries, which are also by far the lowest cost . Due to their slow recharge rate, avoid gel batteries for fast charging cycles"

 

.

 

 

[lennyhb]

aandncaravan - 2017-12-13 2:57 PM

 

Lenny The manual indicates it is 14.8v, it states :

"Non sealed/sealed lead acid, where you can unscrew the lid of the battery and are able to top it

up with water, these are by far the best type for fast charging and long life. ( max voltage 14.8 )".

I'll give you that one for some strange reason on the front of the unit they quote the initial startup voltage.