Diagnostic Plug (where is it)

[fairweather camper]

Hi All

 

We broke down on Motorway last week and called the RAC the man duly arrived and started to look for the Diagnostic Plug, well to cut a long story short after about an hour of looking in all the places it should be, he still could not find it, we were then Recovered to the Garage that does our MOT's a commercial Garage that deals with lorries and buses and also Motorhomes, still no joy, and to date it still cannot be found, we have rung Fiat, Hayes the converter of the Motorhome and the Garage have done an internet search, can anyone help as to the whereabouts of this elusive plug.

 

Motorhome is a Fiat Duccati 2.8 diesel 2002, and is a Pilote Galaxy

 

Our Mechanic is going to "mend" what he and the RAC man think is the problem, but as this is costing about £300 it could be a costly trial and error event.

 

Just thought I would ask you very knowledgeable people as a last resort.

 

Thanks in advance (I hope)

 

 

Val

[colin]

Whilst we await nick finnishing his morning coffee :D

On the later x2/50, it's just below 'parcel shelf' to right of steering column

[Robinhood]

I'm pretty sure my 2002 Ducato had the diagnostic port behind a small flap, below and to the right (I think - though could be left) of the steering wheel (The 2005 one certainly did).

 

Having memories of reading that there was a changeover somewhere about 2002, I've looked at the Fiat Forum, which implies there was a change around 2001/2, and thus the location may depend on the actual build date of your Ducato.

 

If it pre-dates the change, then the following extract may help:

 

"I am having trouble locating an adapter and software to enable me to read diagnostics from a 2001 2.8 JTD.

 

The diagnostic port is a three pin connector with two wires under the bonnet on the near side of the vehicle." (A second post pinpoints the area around the air-filter housing)

 

......and other posts refer to the need for a specific lead, and that some commonly used reading software is incompatible.

[euroserv]

Hello and good morning.

 

Robinhood is exactly right, and thanks Colin; the coffee was goood.

 

The thing is though, if this is a pre-2002 model, and it does not have the 'proper' EOBD diagnostic socket you will not really be able to extract much information from the vehicle ECU, or at least anything that is meaningful.

 

The symptoms usually lead easily to the problem with the 2.8JTD, so please let us know what is going on and we will see if we can point you in the right direction.

 

Nick

 

PS; I will have a wild stab at it any way.....

 

If it was running fine on the motorway then lost power and won't start it is probably the fuel lift pump that has either lost power or packed up completely. It is part of the fuel tank sender unit (below cab floor) and can normally be heard running for 20 or so seconds when you turn on the ignition, then stops if you have not started the engine in that time.

Neither the injectors or high pressure fuel pump will cause these symptoms without many other warning signs like major loss of power, huge fuel leaks or smoke.

[fairweather camper]

Hi have now found plug it in the engine bay, but the Garage have nothing to plug into it, they only have the new version that looks like a scart, I have had the excelorator actuator (I think thats right) changed as both RAC and my Mechanic thought that was what was wrong, BUT it is still the same, and the Mechanic is saying that it is probably the fuel pump, but how many things do u have to change before its the right one.

 

The symptoms are it starts ok but the engine is revving more than it should, and when you press the accelorator there is nothing there, it is just dead.

 

Any Ideas :-( :'(

[euroserv]

Hi.

 

If it was the low pressure (lift) pump it would try to rev up and then conk out.

If it was the high pressure pump it probably would not start at all.

 

The accelerator pedal sends a signal to the throttle actuator. If the actuator has been replaced then it could well be the pedal itself, or the connector on the back of it that sends the signal. No signal means no response from the vehicle!

 

There is an outside possibility that the fuel pressure regulator (on the common rail) is reading too high a fuel pressure and disabling anything other than idle speed.

 

Where are you located? Are you near enough to Leicester that we could help? I have spare parts on older vehicles that we break for just these sorts of situations.

 

Nick

[BGD]

This may help:

 

The diagnostic plug on our 2001 2.8 JTD Ducato is on the right side (as you stand looking into the bonnet, ie rearwards) of the engine bay, near the air filter (the big black cylindrical thing at the back right of the engine bay).

 

It is NOT the three pin plug with THREE wires coming from it (if you have one there...that is for the ABS system if fitted), but the three pin plug nearby with only TWO wires coming from it.

Its centre wire is black, and its left hand wire is white & red, and nothing comes from the right hand pin.

 

Most garages need to use an adaptor to get your Ducato plug fitted to their diagnostic kit

Some garages/breakdown people don't have the right adaptor, or don't know how to hook it up, which is why I always carry one in the MH, together with instructions on how to use it.

 

This is what you need:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16PIN-OBD2-TO-3PIN-OBD1-DIAGNOSTIC-ADAPTOR-CABLE-F-FIAT-/220808692750?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item336939440e

 

 

 

 

Here's how you/they should use it (according to a Fiat forum techie):

 

 

Connect the Red wire of the multi-purpose adaptor to positive (red) terminal of vehicle battery.

Connect the Green lead of multi-purpose adaptor to the left hand pin of the ECU connector (the White and Red wire).

Connect nothing to the ECU connector centre Black wire.

DO NOT at this point connect the black earth wire of the multi purpose adaptor to the negative terminal on the battery, nor let it touch anything metal in the vehicle.

Now try the system. If it works, then DO NOT connect that black earth wire to anything.

 

ONLY if the diagnostics computer doesn't work , then also connect Black wire of the multi-purpose lead to negative (black) terminal of vehicle battery, and try system again.

 

 

Might be worth getting one of these adaptors and keeping it, plus these instructions, in your Ducato for future use..........

 

 

[fairweather camper]

euroserv - 2013-07-02 6:41 PM

 

Hi.

 

If it was the low pressure (lift) pump it would try to rev up and then conk out.

If it was the high pressure pump it probably would not start at all.

 

The accelerator pedal sends a signal to the throttle actuator. If the actuator has been replaced then it could well be the pedal itself, or the connector on the back of it that sends the signal. No signal means no response from the vehicle!

 

There is an outside possibility that the fuel pressure regulator (on the common rail) is reading too high a fuel pressure and disabling anything other than idle speed.

 

Where are you located? Are you near enough to Leicester that we could help? I have spare parts on older vehicles that we break for just these sorts of situations.

 

Nick

 

 

Hi Nick thanks for your info, unfortunately we live in Mid wales, nr Newtown, the irony of it is we are moving to Stoney Stanton (about 10miles from Leicester) in 2 weeks, so I know where to come when we move if (or when) it breaks down again.

 

Been speaking to the Mechanic and apparently when he started the Van this morning (pre fitting the new Actuator) all was working as it should, so it seems to be an intermitent fault, does this throw anymore light on what it could be, we were supposed to be going on holiday tomorrow (Wed) so we are very upset and disapointed that we can now not go, never mind the £300 it has cost me already

 

Regards Val

[fairweather camper]

BGD - 2013-07-02 7:11 PM

 

This may help:

 

The diagnostic plug on our 2001 2.8 JTD Ducato is on the right side (as you stand looking into the bonnet, ie rearwards) of the engine bay, near the air filter (the big black cylindrical thing at the back right of the engine bay).

 

It is NOT the three pin plug with THREE wires coming from it (if you have one there...that is for the ABS system if fitted), but the three pin plug nearby with only TWO wires coming from it.

Its centre wire is black, and its left hand wire is white & red, and nothing comes from the right hand pin.

 

Most garages need to use an adaptor to get your Ducato plug fitted to their diagnostic kit

Some garages/breakdown people don't have the right adaptor, or don't know how to hook it up, which is why I always carry one in the MH, together with instructions on how to use it.

 

This is what you need:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16PIN-OBD2-TO-3PIN-OBD1-DIAGNOSTIC-ADAPTOR-CABLE-F-FIAT-/220808692750?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item336939440e

 

 

 

 

Here's how you/they should use it (according to a Fiat forum techie):

 

 

Connect the Red wire of the multi-purpose adaptor to positive (red) terminal of vehicle battery.

Connect the Green lead of multi-purpose adaptor to the left hand pin of the ECU connector (the White and Red wire).

Connect nothing to the ECU connector centre Black wire.

DO NOT at this point connect the black earth wire of the multi purpose adaptor to the negative terminal on the battery, nor let it touch anything metal in the vehicle.

Now try the system. If it works, then DO NOT connect that black earth wire to anything.

 

ONLY if the diagnostics computer doesn't work , then also connect Black wire of the multi-purpose lead to negative (black) terminal of vehicle battery, and try system again.

 

 

Might be worth getting one of these adaptors and keeping it, plus these instructions, in your Ducato for future use..........

 

 

Thanks BGD very informative, have sent for one, and printed the instructions, will keep it in the van for future use.

 

Regards Val

[fairweather camper]

Just a quick update it seems the engine and chassis are 2000/2001 not 2002 as registered and it is not a common rail engine, dont know if this makes any difference.

 

Val

[euroserv]

It makes a lot of difference.

 

I now assume you have a 2.8 litre NON TURBO engine. Is this the case? It is about 85hp and has no turbo, no intercooler on the left of the radiator etc?

 

[Dave Newell]

QUOTE]euroserv - 2013-07-03 6:19 PM

 

It makes a lot of difference.

 

I now assume you have a 2.8 litre NON TURBO engine. Is this the case? It is about 85hp and has no turbo, no intercooler on the left of the radiator etc?

 

In my experience, while there are non turbo 2.8s about they are few and far between so its more likely to be a 2.8idtd with intercooler and turbo but not electronic engine management and therefore no electronic diagnostics. It is getting a bit confusing though as JTD (common rail electronically controlled fuel injection) came in around 2000/2001 as far as I recall so this should be a JTD with common rail injection and (basic) diagnostics port as previously described. One simple way to ascertain which is to look at the injection pump, if there is a throttle cable then it will be idtd, if no physical connection to the pedal is present then it is JTD.

 

D.

[fairweather camper]

I am getting really confused now, it is a TURBO and apparently it does have a plug for diagnostics, but my Mechanic said it is not a common rail engine ? 8-) :'(

[BGD]

fairweather camper - 2013-07-04 12:43 AM

 

I am getting really confused now, it is a TURBO and apparently it does have a plug for diagnostics, but my Mechanic said it is not a common rail engine ? 8-) :'(

 

 

 

My punt would be that it is the "2.8idtd" engine, which was the 2.8 litre turbo jobbie that they fitted before the "2.8JTD" was introduced.

 

If I remember, that "idtd" bit meant "direct injection turbo diesel", but it did not mean that the diesel injection was via a common rail system (that common rail system came in with the later "JTD" engine).

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

So it has a Turbo.

 

The 2.8idTD was last made in 1999 and there may be some registered in 2000 or even 2001 around. Dave Newell is correct; the main clue now is the accelerator cable; does it have one? Also if you can see the injectors they will have only fuel pipes attached if it is an idTD and electrical connectors to each plug if it's a JTD.

 

If you would like final confirmation please send me a private message with your full chassis number and I will look up your vehicle.

 

Nick

[fairweather camper]

euroserv - 2013-07-04 1:09 PM

 

Hello,

 

So it has a Turbo.

 

The 2.8idTD was last made in 1999 and there may be some registered in 2000 or even 2001 around. Dave Newell is correct; the main clue now is the accelerator cable; does it have one? Also if you can see the injectors they will have only fuel pipes attached if it is an idTD and electrical connectors to each plug if it's a JTD.

 

If you would like final confirmation please send me a private message with your full chassis number and I will look up your vehicle.

 

Nick

 

Hi Nick

 

Sorry dont have the chassis number to hand, its in the Van at the Garage.

 

The mechanic has now told me it is a common rail engine JTD, apparently the apprentice told him it wasn't but when he looked he said it is, it has a turbo, I sent for the adaptor for the diagnostic plug, from the above link, it arrived this morning, the Garage has looked at it and said there are 4 fault codes showing, one is to do with the pump pressure and one is about the injectors, can't remember the other two, but as yet no joy in fixing the problem, this is turning out to be a costly issue, and I cannot see an end to it, I am tearing my hair out, should now be sunning myself on holiday with friends :'(

[fairweather camper]

I now have the codes for the faults on our Van, but the Mechanic has no idea what they mean, can anyone help.

 

P0609 Control Module VSS output B

 

P0190 Fuel Rail Pressure

 

P0220 Throttle Position Switch, B Circuit

 

P0235 Turbo supercharger boost sensor A Circuit

 

 

Also he has tested the Fuel rail pressure at 450 bar, any idea what it should be, he says if it is too low or too high, it could be the problem

 

Sorry to be a pain, but am tearing my hair out, as can't seem to get this resolved.

 

Val

 

Unfortunately there isn't a Fiat garage anywhere near where I live

[BGD]

fairweather camper - 2013-07-05 11:56 AM

 

I now have the codes for the faults on our Van, but the Mechanic has no idea what they mean, can anyone help.

 

P0609 Control Module VSS output B

 

P0190 Fuel Rail Pressure

 

P0220 Throttle Position Switch, B Circuit

 

P0235 Turbo supercharger boost sensor A Circuit

 

 

Also he has tested the Fuel rail pressure at 450 bar, any idea what it should be, he says if it is too low or too high, it could be the problem

 

Sorry to be a pain, but am tearing my hair out, as can't seem to get this resolved.

 

Val

 

Unfortunately there isn't a Fiat garage anywhere near where I live

 

 

 

Maybe you and/or your mechanic could Google, and/or phone some Fiat dealers, or Fiat UK...............

[BGD]

And also try here too?

 

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/

[euroserv]

OK.

 

First generation common rail fuel pressures are as follows;

 

In order to obtain 'permission to start' the pressure must be at least 270 bar with the optimum being 300 and the maximum being 340 bar. While the engine is running the pressure can drop to a minimum of 230 bar before the ECU will cut it out. The maximum pressure while running is approximately 900 bar and during driving the pressure will fluctuate as required between 300 and about 750 bar.

 

It sounds to me like there is a problem with the pressure sensor or pressure regulator. In order to protect the engine from potential damage there are various circuits that can be disabled and the ECU does this by introducing values that are unacceptable in order to test the system. This produces faults that may be recorded but are strictly 'red herrings' or consequences of the main fault. Are you still with me?

 

The bottom line is that this equipment is very durable but is difficult to accurately diagnose without spare parts to substitute or a trial and error replacement process that is both expensive and time consuming.

 

I would absolutely recommend that you take the vehicle to a Bosch Diesel Specialist. It might sound like a potentially expensive exercise but they have test equipment that can plug into the vehicle at every sensor and connection and monitor every value that is present and also simulate loads and even faults to test the integrity of every component. This kind of testing produces definitive conclusions and that saves you money in the long run.

 

My only word of caution is that if they suggest testing the injectors for the correct spray pattern and for leaks, don't be surprised if they all fail. They are a few years old and are obviously not as perfect as they were when new but if the engine starts ok they are NOT the cause of your problem as it stands. If they say that the cannot continue their tests without the injectors being renewed or reconditioned this may be true but this should only cost about £80 per injector to do. Motor factors can supply exchange Bosch injectors for about £120 each.

 

Let me know what you decide to do and what happens next. Don't go spending lots of money without talking to me first. I have lots of spare parts from older vehicles that we are breaking and would be happy to help if i can.

 

Nick

[fairweather camper]

euroserv - 2013-07-05 3:10 PM

 

OK.

 

First generation common rail fuel pressures are as follows;

 

In order to obtain 'permission to start' the pressure must be at least 270 bar with the optimum being 300 and the maximum being 340 bar. While the engine is running the pressure can drop to a minimum of 230 bar before the ECU will cut it out. The maximum pressure while running is approximately 900 bar and during driving the pressure will fluctuate as required between 300 and about 750 bar.

 

It sounds to me like there is a problem with the pressure sensor or pressure regulator. In order to protect the engine from potential damage there are various circuits that can be disabled and the ECU does this by introducing values that are unacceptable in order to test the system. This produces faults that may be recorded but are strictly 'red herrings' or consequences of the main fault. Are you still with me?

 

The bottom line is that this equipment is very durable but is difficult to accurately diagnose without spare parts to substitute or a trial and error replacement process that is both expensive and time consuming.

 

I would absolutely recommend that you take the vehicle to a Bosch Diesel Specialist. It might sound like a potentially expensive exercise but they have test equipment that can plug into the vehicle at every sensor and connection and monitor every value that is present and also simulate loads and even faults to test the integrity of every component. This kind of testing produces definitive conclusions and that saves you money in the long run.

 

My only word of caution is that if they suggest testing the injectors for the correct spray pattern and for leaks, don't be surprised if they all fail. They are a few years old and are obviously not as perfect as they were when new but if the engine starts ok they are NOT the cause of your problem as it stands. If they say that the cannot continue their tests without the injectors being renewed or reconditioned this may be true but this should only cost about £80 per injector to do. Motor factors can supply exchange Bosch injectors for about £120 each.

 

Let me know what you decide to do and what happens next. Don't go spending lots of money without talking to me first. I have lots of spare parts from older vehicles that we are breaking and would be happy to help if i can.

 

Nick

 

 

Thanks for that Nick

 

It is ticking over at 450 bar, the mechanic is going to put a new pressure sensor on, unfortunately I think he has already ordered one, we cannot take it anywhere as we have no accelorator (lol) and it cannot be driven. He has tested the Injectors and they are all OK, if that dont work its the pressure regulator next. could you possibly give me a ring with the prices for both, understand if you would rather not. 01686630347

 

Am coming to Rugby tomorrow, if not too expensive might buy one just in case.

 

Regards Val

 

[fairweather camper]

BGD - 2013-07-05 12:39 PM

 

And also try here too?

 

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/

 

Thanks BGD have done both no joy with Fiat dealers, they just say its a matter of trail and error, have been on the Fiat Forum, one guy had exactly the same problem 2 yrs ago with his motorcaravan same engine, but it does not say what was wrong, have emailed him, but if he dont visit forum !!!!

[euroserv]

 

 

Thanks for that Nick

 

It is ticking over at 450 bar, the mechanic is going to put a new pressure sensor on, unfortunately I think he has already ordered one, we cannot take it anywhere as we have no accelorator (lol) and it cannot be driven. He has tested the Injectors and they are all OK, if that dont work its the pressure regulator next. could you possibly give me a ring with the prices for both, understand if you would rather not. 01686630347

 

Am coming to Rugby tomorrow, if not too expensive might buy one just in case.

 

Regards Val

 

 

I won't be around tomorrow I am afraid but would add the following so that it's 'out there' and others can benefit......

 

The pressure regulator is fixed to the rear of the high pressure pump and is very expensive. So much so that we always buy a reconditioned pump if the regulator is in doubt and it costs less and comes with a guaranteed regulator attached!

 

What I would try is checking the connections to the accelerator pedal and if these seem ok get someone with a multi-meter to check that the resistance changes in a linear fashion when the pedal is pressed. You may have a dead track on the potentiometer that is the 'encoder' for the signal sent to the ECU and throttle assembly. On a full EOBD vehicle you can see the live readings from track one and track 2 of the pedal output but on yours this is not possible.

 

Nick

[fairweather camper]

Guy on Fiat forum who has the same problem, says his mechanic is going to lengthen the wires to the fuel injectors ? is this feasible ?, could that be the problem ?

 

 

[euroserv]

No. That's not it.

 

There have been some problems with poor connections to injectors in the past but this will only ever affect one injector at a time and will result in a pronounced mis-fire. It will still rev up but will run badly, and the engine management light will come on. The injector wiring is fairly tight but it does not cause any problems.

 

The more I think about it, the more likely the pedal is the problem. Please try and get it checked and if possible get the part number off yours. I have one here off an old van and it is part number 1326536080. It is made by Hella and the pedal foot plate is a ribbed MMMM pattern in plastic.

 

I am off now until Monday. Hope you make some progress.

 

Nick