StuartO Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 I was discussing the events arising from the death of George Floyd while in police custody in the USA with my daughter yesterday evening and she reminded me of an incident when we were on holiday together in Florida in the 90s. We were in one of the Disney Parks waiting on the sidewalk to watch the Parade when a black child of about 8 or 9 walked in front of my wife and stopped, blocking her view. It was the sort of thing children do and there was no malice, it simply hadn’t entered the child’s head that other people also wanted to watch the Parade. I tapped him on the shoulder and asked him (very gently) to move over slightly rather than stand directly in front of my small wife, who’s view he was obstructing. I did it with a smile. However the child’s mother saw me speaking to him as she approached in his wake and my daughter spotted that her hackles were up as she moved in – a white man was having a go at her son so she was going to take issue. Then she saw me smiling and being gentle and maybe also heard me speaking like a foreigner and immediately her hackles went down and the conversation was completed amicably. I can’t remember the incident clearly at all but my daughter does and that she saw trouble looming and then going away. My daughter commented yesterday that we need to understand that American blacks have lived their lives witnessing and suffering racist attitudes and behaviour from many whites, hence their sensitivity. If a white man speaks to their child they expect it to be or become racist behaviour because it usually is. We need to understand the historical context in the USA in which blacks react quickly and perhaps also over-react if they see even a hint of racism rearing because they have seen and experienced so much of it. Likewise of course American whites have seen, at least on TV and perhaps also experienced personally, bad behaviour by individual and groups of blacks, including gang and other criminal activity and involvement in drugs, not to mention looting being seen as a predominantly black opportunistic pastime. So they too are sensitized to antisocial and criminal or aggressive behaviour by blacks so they build up expectations that blacks are a threat to their peace and security so it doesn’t take much to get their adrenalin flowing either. If the mother of the black child at the Disney Park had found that a white American was interfering with her child and especially if he had spoken in any way disparagingly or aggressively she would have quite likely gone for him in some way. Many, perhaps most blacks and whites in the USA are conditioned to be on their guard and maybe even itching for a fight when the races come into contact – not all blacks or all whites of course but plenty of them, especially perhaps the less intellectual ones. And so that’s the context in America – and maybe increasingly so in UK. Our own non-intellectual blacks are becoming more confident and assertive and our not-very-bright whites are becoming increasingly resentful – both of being blamed for something they don’t blame themselves for and of the increasing extent to which blacks are seen as getting above themselves and becoming too demanding. British black, or perhaps more accurately British BAMEs, are now demanding action over “structural racism” and British whites are becoming much more willing to voice their attitudes about black drug dealers and other black criminals getting off far too lightly. The situation in UK is heading towards more polarisation of opinion and more racist attitudes – and therefore the potential for more open conflict. The black organiser of a demonstration about Black Lives Matter in Edinburgh this weekend was being interviewed on BBC1 this morning in parallel with the black Mayor of Bristol, who’s against the idea. The Organiser is insistent that the demo will be safe because they have plenty of space for the numbers and it’s to be a static demonstration (no parading) and social distancing will be maintained; they are talking to the police and local authorities so that’s all OK – the Organiser rejects the idea that they should not hold a demo at all because the COVID-19 rules do not permit gatherings of more than a handful. The Mayor of Bristol described his plan for an on line demo I support of Black Lives Matter, with everyone taking a picture of themselves “bending the knee” on their doorstep and posting it on Twitter, as a much safer way to demonstrate. He pointed out that mass gatherings are particularly risky for BAME people because of their special vulnerability to COVID-19 – but the Organiser in Edinburgh would have none of this; her demo was being safely planned in her opinion so it didn’t matter to her what anyone else thought about its lack of safety or legality. I have no idea how we can avoid the seemingly slippery slope into open conflict in UK between ethnic groups and it’s going to need a far more astute politician than I could ever be to think of a workable solution. We’ve had large scale race riots in UK already – remember the disturbances in the St Pauls District of Bristol some years ago? And we’ve had lots of smaller scale incidents, including killings, which are nevertheless warnings of the way things are going. When grasping a nettle becomes too difficult for our politicians the issues are avoided – witness the need for financing of social care which has been staring us in the face for years. Same with the unresolved ethnic divisions in our society - but we keep ignoring them at our deadly peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Good post Stuart ... Strange how we never have 'Chinese Riots , Jewish Riots , Indian Riots' etc etc ... You can only make excuses for folk for so long ... I know as a white male in the new world order I should be ashamed of myself and just let those who want to riot do just that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 Structural Racism is a new concept to me, so Ive been trying to read up about it. It's said to be synonymous with systematic racism and includes the idea that white priviledge is just as significant as black disadvantage or deprivation. Racial inequity is seen as what has to change - and the objective should therefore be racial equity, which means that there should be no difference in achieved health and wealth between racial or ethnic groups in society. Only then would racism have been defeated. Equality (as distinct from equal opportunity) strikes me as unachievable. There are biological differences among ethnic and racial groups and these will influence aptitude for achievement. For example blacks are far better atheletes than whites in many events, so blacks always win the marathon medals and there are disproportionaly more high earning black players in professional football. So I've always seem the sensible objective in a society as the creation of equal opportunity - by making adequate educational and other relevant opportunities available to all, by levelling up rather than levelling down. A big obstacle in trying to establish equal opportunity is that we don't choose our parents, so some of us end up with a bad deal which gives us a very bad start in life. I listened to children in a poor-area primary school reading as a volunteer and it was screamingly obvious as you met these kids that most of them were going to end up with the same sorts of failed lives that their parents were living. And it's politically incorrect to blame bad parenting as well as hugely impractical to try to compensate for it by levelling up opportunity for the children, so how we get around that problem I haven't a clue. But I am sure that pursuit of racial equity in society is pie-in-the-sky nonesense, so we should kick that idea into touch straight away. We were doing far better at equal opportunity in education when I went through the system in the 50s and 60s, free grammar school place, free unviversity with a maintenance grant etc etc. It's gone a long way backwards since then, largely because you had to pass a test to show aptitude and that was considered unfair; better to level down by introducing comprehensive schools and not allowing competitions among children so that no one could be a loser, as if life after school wasn't a competition in which some did well and some didn't. And we introduced payment of fees to go to university so that all the kids from poor background would have to shoulder a huge personal debt at the start of their working lives - and lots of them were encouraged to do crap degrees which would give them no employment opportunities anyway. One way or another our society has made a complete mess of creating equal opportunity, so how could we hope, even in our wildest idealist dreams, that racial equity was a realistic aim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Don't know much about it. I heard the police officer has been suspended and charged with murder - what more do they want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Here we go ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-52936980 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 The events of the past 24 hrs may have shown us the extent to which black people's anger is referred back to the slavery of two hundred plus years ago, from which some UK whites profited at the time, of which there are still visible reminders, either in the form of statuary or of wealth which has been inherited from those who profited from slavery. We are told that wiping all these reminders out would help to sooth the hurt which the blacks have been burdened by ever since. Well it might help - and at least it would remove that as the justification for their continuing sense of grievence from that cause. But it would not solve the continuing problem of modern racism in UK as many blacks are said to perceive it. Only racial equity will achieve that, which means that until statistics show that the average black is as successful in life in material terms as the average for other races in UK, which must also be equal, modern racism will not have been dealt with. Even then there may be a need for continuing action because of other indicators of modern racism, as it is now perceived to be manifest. Currently blacks, on average, do not do as well as other races in making their way in life in UK - by quite a margin. If there is no acknowledgement of any underlying difference in the average potential to succeed among different races, we will need to adopt systems of positive discrimination or the equivalent in order to to set the situation moving in the right direction. But will that ever be enough? We already provide some positive discrimination, so is there evidence that it works? Or is there, as I suspect, an underlying major difference in average potential for material success in a society like ours which disadvantages blacks so much that racial equity is an impossible aim. We can succeed in help the blacks who do have aptitude for better education etc, and we already do some of that, but not all of them can be helped in that way. So what else can we realistically do to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Whites must learn to respect blacks we are being told today. How should that work? Does it mean that we must take all their expressions of feelings and any ideas which stem from them at face value, without the normal processes of democratic discussion and decision when there might be differences of view? I can't see any of this working out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-06 1:05 PM Here we go ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-52936980 How very BBC *-) ......... The sooner they bin the licence fee the better :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-08 8:57 AM So what else can we realistically do to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Whites must learn to respect blacks we are being told today. How should that work? Does it mean that we must take all their expressions of feelings and any ideas which stem from them at face value, without the normal processes of democratic discussion and decision when there might be differences of view? Start looking beyond the colour of a persons skin for a start. Telling non-white people to "go back to their own country" when said country is the country of their birth, displays nothing but base bigotry from far right extremists and racists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 3:07 PM StuartO - 2020-06-08 8:57 AM So what else can we realistically do to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Whites must learn to respect blacks we are being told today. How should that work? Does it mean that we must take all their expressions of feelings and any ideas which stem from them at face value, without the normal processes of democratic discussion and decision when there might be differences of view? Start looking beyond the colour of a persons skin for a start. Telling non-white people to "go back to their own country" when said country is the country of their birth, displays nothing but base bigotry from far right extremists and racists. You are the only one talking about telling non-whites to go back to their own country on here Bulletguy, I have never said any such thing. And what do you mean by looking beyond the colour of a person's skin? How do meaningless sound bites like that help? How does anything you've said help to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Where are your constructive ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-08 5:08 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 3:07 PM StuartO - 2020-06-08 8:57 AM So what else can we realistically do to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Whites must learn to respect blacks we are being told today. How should that work? Does it mean that we must take all their expressions of feelings and any ideas which stem from them at face value, without the normal processes of democratic discussion and decision when there might be differences of view? Start looking beyond the colour of a persons skin for a start. Telling non-white people to "go back to their own country" when said country is the country of their birth, displays nothing but base bigotry from far right extremists and racists. You are the only one talking about telling non-whites to go back to their own country on here Bulletguy, I have never said any such thing. And what do you mean by looking beyond the colour of a person's skin? How do meaningless sound bites like that help? How does anything you've said help to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Where are your constructive ideas? Metaphorically Stuart, i wasn't saying you....i meant in general!! 'Looking beyond' is not a meaningless 'soundbite' at all and means exactly what it says, it's the person themselves that matters and not the colour. I couldn't give a flying fig what colour person i worked with, lived next door to me, repaired my car at the garage, served in shops etc etc as long as they're ok folks, what's the problem? You asked, " what else can we realistically do" over racial discrimination and i gave a known example of bigoted racism. Why do people say such things anyway? Not only is it disgusting, it's pretty damn thick and stupid when the person they're aiming it at is born in the country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 5:45 PM StuartO - 2020-06-08 5:08 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 3:07 PM StuartO - 2020-06-08 8:57 AM So what else can we realistically do to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Whites must learn to respect blacks we are being told today. How should that work? Does it mean that we must take all their expressions of feelings and any ideas which stem from them at face value, without the normal processes of democratic discussion and decision when there might be differences of view? Start looking beyond the colour of a persons skin for a start. Telling non-white people to "go back to their own country" when said country is the country of their birth, displays nothing but base bigotry from far right extremists and racists. You are the only one talking about telling non-whites to go back to their own country on here Bulletguy, I have never said any such thing. And what do you mean by looking beyond the colour of a person's skin? How do meaningless sound bites like that help? How does anything you've said help to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Where are your constructive ideas? Metaphorically Stuart, i wasn't saying you....i meant in general!! 'Looking beyond' is not a meaningless 'soundbite' at all and means exactly what it says, it's the person themselves that matters and not the colour. I couldn't give a flying fig what colour person i worked with, lived next door to me, repaired my car at the garage, served in shops etc etc as long as they're ok folks, what's the problem? You asked, " what else can we realistically do" over racial discrimination and i gave a known example of bigoted racism. Why do people say such things anyway? Not only is it disgusting, it's pretty damn thick and stupid when the person they're aiming it at is born in the country! Lets hope they aren't gay though ... "Pansy Boy" wasn't it ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 3:07 PM StuartO - 2020-06-08 8:57 AM So what else can we realistically do to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Whites must learn to respect blacks we are being told today. How should that work? Does it mean that we must take all their expressions of feelings and any ideas which stem from them at face value, without the normal processes of democratic discussion and decision when there might be differences of view? Start looking beyond the colour of a persons skin for a start. Telling non-white people to "go back to their own country" when said country is the country of their birth, displays nothing but base bigotry from far right extremists and racists. It's high time you AND your fellow Losers stopped talking out off your ar*e *-) ....... The Chinky Flu hasn't achieved what you wanted :-| ...... So you LOSERS have decided to jump on the Floydd band wagon 8-) ....... Really? :-S ....... Is his killer not in prison facing trial?...... Are all those BAME killers of BAME folk in London......"in" prison facing trial?....... Nope..... *-) ....... Where are the BAME riots for all those people? :-| ...... Effing Hypocrites >:-( ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Another alcohol fuelled rambling diatribe of inanity.....FGS stay off the damn bottle Pelmet. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 9:23 PM Another alcohol fuelled rambling diatribe of inanity.....FGS stay off the damn bottle Pelmet. *-) Stop excusing the majority BAME on BAME murders Dumb Dumb >:-( ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-06-08 9:30 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 9:23 PM Another alcohol fuelled rambling diatribe of inanity.....FGS stay off the damn bottle Pelmet. *-) Stop excusing the majority BAME on BAME murders Dumb Dumb >:-( ........ Bump......Come on Dumb Dumb step up to the plate? :-| ..... Best be quick as its past my bedtime ;-) ....... But post away as I am more than happy to sort through your Loser Gobsh*te in the morning :D ..... Just sayin :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Thankyou fellas ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 5:45 PM StuartO - 2020-06-08 5:08 PM Bulletguy - 2020-06-08 3:07 PM StuartO - 2020-06-08 8:57 AM So what else can we realistically do to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Whites must learn to respect blacks we are being told today. How should that work? Does it mean that we must take all their expressions of feelings and any ideas which stem from them at face value, without the normal processes of democratic discussion and decision when there might be differences of view? Start looking beyond the colour of a persons skin for a start. Telling non-white people to "go back to their own country" when said country is the country of their birth, displays nothing but base bigotry from far right extremists and racists. You are the only one talking about telling non-whites to go back to their own country on here Bulletguy, I have never said any such thing. And what do you mean by looking beyond the colour of a person's skin? How do meaningless sound bites like that help? How does anything you've said help to deal with the continuing racial discrimination which burdens and angers the blacks so much in our society today? Where are your constructive ideas? Metaphorically Stuart, i wasn't saying you....i meant in general!! 'Looking beyond' is not a meaningless 'soundbite' at all and means exactly what it says, it's the person themselves that matters and not the colour. I couldn't give a flying fig what colour person i worked with, lived next door to me, repaired my car at the garage, served in shops etc etc as long as they're ok folks, what's the problem? You asked, " what else can we realistically do" over racial discrimination and i gave a known example of bigoted racism. Why do people say such things anyway? Not only is it disgusting, it's pretty damn thick and stupid when the person they're aiming it at is born in the country! You've had time to think.so what are your constructive ideas Bulletgey? It's really no use just being a moaner all the time, we all need to think constructively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Well we could start by removing statues to slave traders like the one in Bristol. And renaming streets like 'Penny Lane' in Liverpool which was named after Captain Penny, a slave trader >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 John52 - 2020-06-09 8:37 AM Well we could start by removing statues to slave traders like the one in Bristol. And renaming streets like 'Penny Lane' in Liverpool which was named after Captain Penny, a slave trader >:-) OK, but that doesn’t take us far, it merely removes various focal points for resentment. What do we do to achieve racial equity? Or instead of, if we think that’s not achievable? What do we do to make the lives and success prospects of all the low-achieve blacks better? Come on, make some constructive suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 John52 - 2020-06-09 8:37 AM Well we could start by removing statues to slave traders like the one in Bristol. And renaming streets like 'Penny Lane' in Liverpool which was named after Captain Penny, a slave trader >:-) What about removing some of our castles ... Built with the help of forced labour , slavery basically ... Lets start with Barnard Castle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-09 9:33 AM John52 - 2020-06-09 8:37 AM Well we could start by removing statues to slave traders like the one in Bristol. And renaming streets like 'Penny Lane' in Liverpool which was named after Captain Penny, a slave trader >:-) What about removing some of our castles ... Built with the help of forced labour , slavery basically ... Lets start with Barnard Castle Can you not think of anything constructive either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-09 9:30 AM John52 - 2020-06-09 8:37 AM Well we could start by removing statues to slave traders like the one in Bristol. And renaming streets like 'Penny Lane' in Liverpool which was named after Captain Penny, a slave trader >:-) .... Come on, make some constructive suggestions! Well it would have been constructive to change the signs before they got attacked https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-52992669 Like votes for women - why does the Establishment wait for someone to break the law before they do the right thing :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 StuartO - 2020-06-09 9:30 AM What do we do to make the lives and success prospects of all the low-achieve blacks better? Come on, make some constructive suggestions! Why only blacks? Why not have a more egalitarian society by reversing the policies of the last 40 years which has created ever wider gaps between rich and poor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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