Guest rael Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52640696 Hmm... So you can't have your son/daughter to visit you in your home (observing social distancing) but its ok to have complete strangers wandering around. This is now seriously taking the p**s. They either have a 'lockdown' or they don't. This sort of action by the government will only get folk riled up and encourage them to break lockdown advice. I thought we were supposed to be saving lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 It's always going to be possible to pick holes in the Government's attempts to make a graduated start to get the economy going while avoiding a "second peak" of virus infections and deaths and I think it's silly (and even childish) to make comments like these. Clearly there is some extra risk in using a removals firm to move house, just as there is some extra risk (compared with everyone staying at home) in meeting up with your grandchild, even outdoors. But if a house move has been held up during lockdown and it is important to you to complete it - and the removals firm take sensible precautions in the way they operate to minimise risk, it's not an unreasonable thing to do as part of an easing of restrictions. They certainly shouldn't be "wandering about" aimlessly inside your home, as you imply. Likewise you can now meet up with a grandchild outdoors if you want to - keeping social distancing. The difficulty with attempting to start gradual relaxations, which ever way you do it, is that there is always going to be someone who will resent some personal inconvenience which still continues or some liberty which someone else is now enjoying, instead of using some common sense. And by the way it's NOT OK to have your son or daughter visit you INSIDE your home because that's still too risky; if you want to meet relatives of friends who aren't in your household you need to meet them one at once and OUTSIDE, staying at least 2 metres apart. There is too much risk of increasing spread of the virus if different households start mingling together even outdoors, so essentially apart from those who now need to go back to work, making arrangements for travel and at work which are safe, we should still be staying at home except for the same essential reasons for going out, i.e. going shopping for food etc. Now that's not too difficult for you to understand is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rael Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 StuartO - 2020-05-13 12:09 PM It's always going to be possible to pick holes in the Government's attempts to make a graduated start to get the economy going while avoiding a "second peak" of virus infections and deaths and I think it's silly (and even childish) to make comments like these. Clearly there is some extra risk in using a removals firm to move house, just as there is some extra risk (compared with everyone staying at home) in meeting up with your grandchild, even outdoors. But if a house move has been held up during lockdown and it is important to you to complete it - and the removals firm take sensible precautions in the way they operate to minimise risk, it's not an unreasonable thing to do as part of an easing of restrictions. Likewise you can now meet up with a grandchild outdoors if you want to - keeping social distancing. The difficulty with attempting to start gradual relaxations, which ever way you do it, is that there is always going to be someone who will resent some personal inconvenience which still continues or some liberty which someone else is now enjoying, instead of using some common sense. And by the way it's NOT OK to have your son or daughter visit you INSIDE your home; if you want to meet relatives of friends who aren't in your household you need to meet them one at once and OUTSIDE, staying at least 2 metres apart. Now that's not too difficult for you to understand is it? Firstly, try not to sound so pompous and patronising, it doesn't help. I know ITS NOT OK to have son/daughter to visit, where did I say that was ok or that I was intending to do it? I know what the rules are, I have read all the documents produced so far and am fully aware of what I can and cannot do. If you read what I wrote, I didn't even mention removals/moving, I mentioned the fact that house viewings, which they intend to re-start, will involve people going into other peoples home, which currently fly's in the face of current guidance. I won't resort to insulting your intelligence as you did mine, You are clearly a bright person, but that does not give you the right to insult others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 You are misinterpreting the guidance about removals being allowed - everything which is now being allowed is required to be done safely and by referring to "strangers wandering about in your house" you are misrepresenting what is now permitted - so it's not unreasonable to point that out to you, is it? Sorry if you're the sort who can't take criticism without responding with gratuitous personal insults but I stand by my criticisms of you for your silly post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rael Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 StuartO - 2020-05-13 12:36 PM You are misinterpreting the guidance about removals being allowed - everything which is now being allowed is required to be done safely and by referring to "strangers wandering about in your house" you are misrepresenting what is now permitted - so it's not unreasonable to point that out to you, is it? Sorry if you're the sort who can't take criticism without responding with gratuitous personal insults but I stand by my criticisms of you for your silly post. Perfectly fine with your critical points. Your comments about my post, therfore myself. "I think it's silly (and even childish) to make comments like these" "Now that's not too difficult for you to understand is it?" it's exactly the sort of thing a teacher in the 70s would have come out with as a put down, not nice. So are these not personal insults then? Anyway back to business. I'll keep to the point. Again, I did not mention the removals aspect. I was addressing viewings. I do not think in the current lockdown its acceptable to have people walking around other peoples houses, whatever, precautions they take. Viewings will probably involve 3 people, therfore the risk of the virus being transmitted is magnified. Its perfectly feasible, these days to get enough information together for a buyer using images and video, then when its deemed safe, resume visits they can do that then. At the moment the dilema is that you can't let a single person into your home for social reasons, but you can let possibly three people in who you don't know. You are more likely to trust a relative or friend, than you are 3 strangers to ensure they have washed hands etc, etc, than you are strangers. Clearly I don't think its worth the risk to 're-boot, the economy, but possibly you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 When you live in a complex society where so many aspects interact with other aspects there are always going to be anomalies and conflicts of interest no matter how exhaustive the government guidelines try to be. As mature, sensible adults it is beholden upon us to use a lot of common sense as we endeavour to get the country and ourselves back into a new and very different type of reality. We too are waiting to move home but we are in no great rush whilst we and other people are still so much at risk. Patience and inconvenience are hugely better than suffering or death and regardless of what the government say and other folk do we will be treading our own cautious path for many months yet as we pick our way past the anomolies. Rocket science it ain't!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Among the many pressures and conflicting requirements on our Government during this pandemic will be people whose house move has been held up in a difficult and challenging way, for example house moves because of divorce or domestic abuse. There will be people who need to move because of a new job or in order to get a new job. So the Government needs to allow relief as soon as practicable for these people facing extra difficulty and has done so conditionally upon the observance of safety measures to control the risk of infection. Among those responsible for removals and house sales there will be a lot of head scratching going on to work out how they can proceed safely and there may be considerable difficulties requiring the use of new methods, such as video tours instead of personal first viewings of houses and the use of PPE and/or distancing procedures by removals men. Jumping to the conclusion that these relaxations of the lockdown will inevitably involve "strangers wandering around your house" mixing intimately with your household is not remotely justified. The Government have also suggested that we need to use some common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rael Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 StuartO - 2020-05-13 2:06 PM Among the many pressures and conflicting requirements on our Government during this pandemic will be people whose house move has been held up in a difficult and challenging way, for example house moves because of divorce or domestic abuse. There will be people who need to move because of a new job or in order to get a new job. So the Government needs to allow relief as soon as practicable for these people facing extra difficulty and has done so conditionally upon the observance of safety measures to control the risk of infection. Among those responsible for removals and house sales there will be a lot of head scratching going on to work out how they can proceed safely and there may be considerable difficulties requiring the use of new methods, such as video tours instead of personal first viewings of houses and the use of PPE and/or distancing procedures by removals men. Jumping to the conclusion that these relaxations of the lockdown will inevitably involve "strangers wandering around your house" mixing intimately with your household is not remotely justified. The Government have also suggested that we need to use some common sense. Well lets hope I am jumping to conclusions. At the moment anything that risks an increase in Covid-19 should be avoided, and house viewing are not needed at this time and will increase the risk off contamination. You mention the need for house moves for reasons of divorce/domestic abuse and I fully agree with you. Thats what we'd call compassionate grounds I expect, but the reasons given for the new relaxations seem to be driven by money, not compassion. The problem is that at the moment it appears that relaxation of lockdown seems to be primarily focussed on the economy, at the expense of the well being of people. So for example a young person working 200 miles away from home, with some mental health issues, who might otherwise visit their parents regularly, for some support and love during a difficult time. Is that no less worthy of some sort of relaxation as well as the estate agent viewings? The balance needs adjusting or we all stay put until such time as the risks are less than they are now. You also mentioned that the Government have also suggested that we need to use some common sense. But as you posted a few days ago that appears dead and buried, with which I totally agree. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/Common-Sense/55145/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Undoubtedly the Government is having to consider money because the economy is clearly taking quite a nosedive which wil lead to more and more job losses and business failures - and as the Chief Medical Officer has pointed out several times, unnecessary "excess" deaths will occur because of the economic downturn as well as those deaths directly caused by the virus. The Government therefore has no alternative but to try to minimise damage to the economy as well as minimise coronavirus deaths. They may well decide that they cannot simply financially support everyone to stay at home until a complete solution to the virus comes up, i.e. a vaccine and/or a curative anti-virus treatment, because too much economic damage will be done by then and there will be no jobs for anyone to go back to. It's a very difficult series of judgements they are having to make and we shouldn't be adding to the problem by sniping at them, especially with ill-considered and spurious criticisms. They are unlikely to get all of the decisions perfectly right either but we all need to pull together to get through this so we need to support the Government as part of that. Sir Kier Starmer, the new Labour Leader has more or less said as much and so far he's doing very well. By the way it was Tracker who made the post about common sense; I didn't contribute to that thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 IMO its all too early and the infections will just rise again quickly and we will be back where we were last week. However I agree with Rich. Rely on you're own common sense and what you feel comfortable with. Personally as far as I am concerned nothing has changed. I'm still on lock down although thankfully I can go for a ride out on the scooter now on a sunny day without the Scooter and photography police on here finger wagging at me and calling the cops! I declined to go out to a site yesterday and today to do some emergency work and will continue to do so indefinitely if I have to. Some people sadly wont have that choice but if you do, then stay at home and / or avoid anything like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 I had an email this morning from one of our local estate agents announcing their return to active duties. The following extract is relevant to this thread: "We would like to reassure you that although we are now able to offer viewings of properties, we will still be adhering to the Government guidelines and operating social distancing and increased cleanliness measures in order to ensure the safety of our staff, our customers and the wider community." They have all been workig from home until now, not sure whether that will continue. They are offering on line valuations and video listings and presumably those will continue. They are obviously being sensible about keeping everyone safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-05-13 2:36 PM IMO its all too early and the infections will just rise again quickly and we will be back where we were last week. I declined to go out to a site yesterday and today to do some emergency work and will continue to do so indefinitely if I have to. Some people sadly wont have that choice but if you do, then stay at home and / or avoid anything like this. Way too early imo and yes, many do not have the choice or the luxury retirees have sitting at home who can please themselves. https://tinyurl.com/yah9kuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-05-13 3:48 PM Barryd999 - 2020-05-13 2:36 PM IMO its all too early and the infections will just rise again quickly and we will be back where we were last week. I declined to go out to a site yesterday and today to do some emergency work and will continue to do so indefinitely if I have to. Some people sadly wont have that choice but if you do, then stay at home and / or avoid anything like this. Way too early imo and yes, many do not have the choice or the luxury retirees have sitting at home who can please themselves. https://tinyurl.com/yah9kuse Its basically a game of "Job Russian Roulette" Can you even buy face masks? Do they even work? It wont be long before the resentment starts I guess between those being forced to go in and those who are not. I give it two to three weeks before the R rate bounces back over 1. We wont start to know until at least then anyway. If its true that only 5% have been infected then I cant see this going away anytime soon. There will be a constant yo yo effect as lock down is relaxed and then has to be tightened again. Its herd immunity again really, just at a controlled (hopefully) pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 StuartO - 2020-05-13 1:06 PM Jumping to the conclusion that these relaxations of the lockdown will inevitably involve "strangers wandering around your house" mixing intimately with your household is not remotely justified. The Government have also suggested that we need to use some common sense. Stuart, I/we know you don't tolerate anyone criticising this government (be they a journalist, Chair of the Health & Social Care Select Committee or Leader of the Opposition etc..), let alone someone on a forum.. ;-) But unless you are selling your house to- a) Someone you know and/or b) You insist on them standing in one spot(presumably the front door step?) ..then of cause it will, Quote- ".. inevitably involve "strangers wandering around your house"... If they've turned up at your house, how else will they be "viewing" it ? So as rael says, if it's okay for a "stranger" (sorry "prospective purchaser", is that better?) to walk around inside your home, then why not a member of your family? What they have proposed is clearly NOT common sense, by anyone's definition. (maybe our sons/daughters/grandchildren should just ring an estate agent and then come around our house with them? *-)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-05-13 4:14 PM Bulletguy - 2020-05-13 3:48 PM Barryd999 - 2020-05-13 2:36 PM IMO its all too early and the infections will just rise again quickly and we will be back where we were last week. I declined to go out to a site yesterday and today to do some emergency work and will continue to do so indefinitely if I have to. Some people sadly wont have that choice but if you do, then stay at home and / or avoid anything like this. Way too early imo and yes, many do not have the choice or the luxury retirees have sitting at home who can please themselves. https://tinyurl.com/yah9kuse Its basically a game of "Job Russian Roulette" Can you even buy face masks? Do they even work? It wont be long before the resentment starts I guess between those being forced to go in and those who are not. I give it two to three weeks before the R rate bounces back over 1. We wont start to know until at least then anyway. If its true that only 5% have been infected then I cant see this going away anytime soon. There will be a constant yo yo effect as lock down is relaxed and then has to be tightened again. Its herd immunity again really, just at a controlled (hopefully) pace. "..But...but...why aren't they just working from home..?..." *-) (I heard it stated on TV news over the last day or so that "44% of people in employment" were working from home? That seemed a high figure to me? ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 It is considerably easier to maintain social distancing from a prospedtive buyer on a short tour of your home than it is for members of your own family on a social visit, but with the application of a little common sense no doubt we could, or most of us could, manage quite easily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 I don't know how estate agents will manage viewing of properties but they will have thought out a safe method of some sort. You would expect two people wanting to view at the same time and that begs the question of whether they do so separately (and talk about it together afterwards) and, if the property is occupied, whether you ask the residents to leave while the visit is taking place - but that's a good selling tactic anyway. Maybe the estate agent wears a mask and gloves and offers the same to the viewers. Maybe the estate agent makes it clear that there should be no touching anywhere, not even hands on the surfaces, the viewers should just walk around and look. Clearly the agent must go round with them for security reasons if the property has stealable contents. They are professional sales people; they will work out a way of handling it well. I certainly feel we should pull together and support our Government as they try to do their best - not least because I don't think there is any real alternative in sight; we might be taking a risk with BoJo but rather him than Trump or even Starmer and his feuding MPs until they get their act together. I don't like smart arse, always-interupting, trouble-maker journalists either, or yesterday's-men MPs or self appointed alternative scientific experts who weren't chosen for the Government's team sounding off with attempts to undermine the Government and its chosen advisers. Contributors to this Forum can say what they like because no one of consequence will take note of what any of us think but I reserve the right to point out when someone posts something silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rael Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 StuartO - 2020-05-13 3:12 PM Undoubtedly the Government is having to consider money because the economy is clearly taking quite a nosedive which wil lead to more and more job losses and business failures - and as the Chief Medical Officer has pointed out several times, unnecessary "excess" deaths will occur because of the economic downturn as well as those deaths directly caused by the virus. The Government therefore has no alternative but to try to minimise damage to the economy as well as minimise coronavirus deaths. They may well decide that they cannot simply financially support everyone to stay at home until a complete solution to the virus comes up, i.e. a vaccine and/or a curative anti-virus treatment, because too much economic damage will be done by then and there will be no jobs for anyone to go back to. It's a very difficult series of judgements they are having to make and we shouldn't be adding to the problem by sniping at them, especially with ill-considered and spurious criticisms. They are unlikely to get all of the decisions perfectly right either but we all need to pull together to get through this so we need to support the Government as part of that. Sir Kier Starmer, the new Labour Leader has more or less said as much and so far he's doing very well. By the way it was Tracker who made the post about common sense; I didn't contribute to that thread. Yes, sorry about that, my mistake, got a bit confused! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Tracker - 2020-05-13 5:03 PM It is considerably easier to maintain social distancing from a prospedtive buyer on a short tour of your home than it is for members of your own family on a social visit, but with the application of a little common sense no doubt we could, or most of us could, manage quite easily? "quite easily" ... Those whinging whinge simply for one reason only ... Surely you know that by now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rael Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 I don't generally have a lot of time for Robert Jenrick, but he explains this very clearly. He also didn't seem to think it was silly or unreasonable for people to ask the question I posed. Given all that, I still think its way to early for this to be happening. Thats my opinion, but I'lm happy to respect differing opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 I'm not convinced that I disagree with you but I can see the other side of the argument where provided sensible precautions are taken anything that helps restart the economy has to be worth a try. It may have been mentioned before - common sense is the key - and I'm far from convinced that a large slice of the populace has any!! (NOT you rael, I hasten to add) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 rael - 2020-05-13 10:49 AM https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52640696 Hmm... So you can't have your son/daughter to visit you in your home (observing social distancing) but its ok to have complete strangers wandering around. This is now seriously taking the p**s. They either have a 'lockdown' or they don't. This sort of action by the government will only get folk riled up and encourage them to break lockdown advice. I thought we were supposed to be saving lives. Our furniture is being delivered this Saturday after 4 years in storage B-) ......... The vast majority of it will go into the garage, the sofa's will be put over the threshold at the patio doors ;-) ...... We currently have a tree surgeon carrying out work, and the builder is coming around later to quote for building work........we are and will be practising social distancing :D ........ Common sense is whats required to operate in our new COVID world B-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-05-14 7:27 AM We currently have a tree surgeon carrying out work, and the builder is coming around later to quote for building work........we are and will be practising social distancing :D ........ Common sense is whats required to operate in our new COVID world B-) ....... Hey Dave - wanna buy a nice cement mixer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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