armstrongpiper Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Please could owners of 'vans with on-board tanks tell me how they close off the gas supply while travelling? Ta, Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 We have an AutoSleeper Warwick XL. I simply turn off the gas using the inboard isolation valves located under one of the beds. There is also a separate isolation valve under the chassis near the door but as it means laying down and working ones way underneath I don't bother with it. In addition to this there is a master valve located on the tank itself which needs a cover to be removed to access it. If you are traveling on the tunnel and I suspect on some ferries this valve MUST be closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Our present van has a 38 litre under slung tank with the same type of valve, under a shield, mounted on it as Colinn describes. There is another main shut off valve under the sink cupboard that chute off the supply to the van (this is the only one we have ever shown at the tunnel and they have been happy with that) and then separate valves for cooker, heating etc. Our new van will have two Gaslow refillable so in a locker with an outside filler. These will be closed using the valves on top of the cylinder much like Calor et al. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Thanks for the replies. My new PVC has the same shut-off valves system, and when the valve inside the 'van seized in the open position, I had to crawl under to stop and start the gas supply. It seemed to me that there should be means to do this without crawling about (what if I wasn't able to do this), so I wondered how other 'vans were equipped. It appears that it is a common arrangement, and I don't think it is a good one. I have had a PM from a kind Forum member about this, which could lead to a solution. Maybe more later. Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 We have a van with an underslung LPG tank and never turn it off. In fact I`ve never even thought about turning it off unless going through the tunnel. Some vehicles run on LPG so why do you need to turn it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 hi, If I am not mistaken you can fit or get fitted a solenoid activated valve, or maybe you could concoct an extended 'turn-key' to save you crawling underneath. good luck derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markh1 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I'm with SAS, why do you want to turn it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazooka Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Iff alorry hit the back would'nt there be an allmighty bang? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Judging by *photos posted on here during previous discussions on this topic, I would've thought that gas tanks and their associated pipework, mounted underneath comparatively low-slung MHs, were likely to be vulnerable enough as it is, without driving around with their valves open...... (*Derek Uzzell post- Half way down page 2 https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Autogas-lpg-tanks-and-Eurotunnel/34967/31/ ) There seems little point in turning off a manifold tap inside the van, when it's only going to take a piece of road debris to wipe out a hose/pipe/fitting/exterior reg' etc mounted underneath it...?.. :-S The fact that the shut off valves on these gas tanks can't be accessed easily, is something that should be seriously looked at,and addressed, by the companies installing them! ..and not just something that is put up with, by the van owners... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Agreed, Pepe63, my feelings exactly. I am amazed at the cavalier attitude towards the carriage and use of gas shown by some posters on here Neil B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markh1 Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 But if your car is fuelled by LPG you have a gas tank just like those on a motorhome and obviously you can't switch that off when you are driving, so whats the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipsticks Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 But that's liquid though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 dipsticks - 2015-08-11 11:06 AM But that's liquid though. Yes... ..and another obvious difference is, if it's being used for propulsion, then of cause it needs to be left on.. (..and, as understandable as it may be, it's not just being left on because the owner can't be a*sed to scramble underneath and turn it off.. ;-) ) Either way, gas or liquid, if the associated pipe work, valves etc on lpg cars, is as "vulnerable" as that arrangement in the photo in that link I posted, then I'd also be far from happy with them.... (besides, don't most car conversions just have their tank in the boot?..or in the spare wheel well?..) Let's not forget, these MH "accessories" will just get fitted into the easiest(possibly the only) place they can, as quickly as they can..for as cheaply as they can..... Back to that photo: Where's the guard or shroud on that reg / and that vertical hose fitting..?..and that tank should be sat in a cradle and retained by straps, and not just suspended from them. It's just very poor.. "...I've left mine on for years....never had a problem....it's 'elf'n'safety gorn mad, I tells ya!..", out of sight out of mind lark, is just letting the installers off the hook... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I have to agree that the installation of gas systems on Motorhomes leaves a great deal to be desired. I have, on two vans, had to have Chris Wise if Autogas 2000 modify the installation to make it safe but he readily acknowledges that there are no proper codes or guidelines for this at the moment. However, I believe he sits on a group that is at present developing proper installation regulations and codes of practice for LPG installations in leisure vehicles. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 We have a refillable gas bottle, we turn it off at the Tunnel at the checking point just after passports, and to date they have always checked us, even when we used normal gas bottles. We do not turn it off whilst travelling normally. It was interesting to see the item on the tv news last evening about the tanker truck full of gas that burst into flames on one of the northern motorways, it didn't go bang, but it was a fire in the engine compartment and the flames were all round the gas tank. The driver, who one would expect to be well trained in the emergency procedures, had tried to put the flames out with a fire extinguisher, so presumably,he did not expect it to go bang anytime soon, but he did not succeed. Many years ago I worked in the pyrotechnics industry, and we were very mindful of the potential for things to go bang, and always, in considering how to do things we were taught to think Probability and Consequence. 1. How easy is it to set it alight? 2. What's it likely to do? For example if you tip some loose gunpowder onto the bench and hit it with a hammer there will be a pop, a flash, and if you're too close you could singe your eyebrows. It easy to light. If you put a stick of gelignite on your bench and hit. It, you will put a dent in it. If you put it on the heap of loose gunpowder and set that off you are likely to get a very big bang, a very large flash, and the rescue services across several counties will start moving towards your remains. Gas will only burn as a flame unless you mix it with oxygen (ie air) , it only becomes explosive when mixed with air. When the IRA blew up the gasholder in Greenwich in the 1970's we were asleep on our boat about 500 yards away. The flames were spectacular, but even though the gas holder had been breached by an explosion, the gas simply burned, and when all the gas had gone, the flames went out. Now don't get me wrong, when dealing with anything that could go off then be very careful, and stick to the rules, I think I do, but think Probability and Consequence. We have all encountered the scene of traffic accidents, but in how many cases have the vehicles burst into flames on impact? You are all happy to travel around in vehicles powered by highly volatile and combustible fuels, in some cases these fuels are stored in plastic tanks, and did know that a Jumbo Jet taking off on an intercontinental flight will be carrying as much as 200 tons of posh paraffin? Do you insist that the fuel is turned off at the tank? If you believe that it's necessary to turn the gas off at the tank, why don't you believe that you should turn the diesel off before starting the engine? Be sensible, do everything the law requires, such rules are generally made to ensure our well being, but let us not act like paranoid lemmings. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Archiesgrandad - 2015-08-11 1:40 PM and did know that a Jumbo Jet taking off on an intercontinental flight will be carrying as much as 200 tons of posh paraffin? Do you insist that the fuel is turned off at the tank? If you believe that it's necessary to turn the gas off at the tank, why don't you believe that you should turn the diesel off before starting the engine? Be sensible, do everything the law requires, such rules are generally made to ensure our well being, but let us not act like paranoid lemmings. AGD I would like to think that your average "Jumbo jet" would've been designed and maintained to a higher standard than your average MH..and therefore hasn't got it's fuel fittings and components, retro fitted protruding (down by their undercarriage?) where "debris" could clack them.. ;-) As for not turning the diesel tank off..?...do folk really not see the difference between a tank holding diesel, which is a) not under pressure) and b) needed for propulsion anyway... and a high pressure gas system ? It wasn't that many years ago that shutting off your gas bottle prior to driving off was considered to be the correct, safe thing to do (our last two vans came with stickers in the gas locker to that effect).. So (any "secumotion" type stuff aside), what has changed?.. .. other than now it may have become a bit more of a hassle for some, as it may now involve them having to *scramble under the van?... :-S (* as I say, a failing of the installers ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted August 11, 2015 Author Share Posted August 11, 2015 My 'Van gas tank can hold 25 litres of LPG when full, which is about 12Kg. The gas is under a pressure of about 300 psi. In the event of an accident, or any thing else untoward happening underneath, with the tank valve open and the vulnerable copper pipe being severed, the escaping gas is going to quickly form a large flammable or even explosive cloud. Am I going to volunteer to crawl under the 'van into this gas cloud to turn the valve off, or ask a Fireman/Policeman to do it? I think not! Better, surely, to have the valve closed when travelling, which is of course the recommended action. Unfortunately, at present, this is not an easy thing to do. Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markh1 Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Its not gas, in the tank its liquid, the clue is LPG - liquid petroleum gas, not sure who made the recommendation to turn off the gas when travelling, my hab heating system is designed to be used on the move, so the gas has to be on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 With reference to your comment about the design and maintenance of airliners I would simply refer you to the fate of the beautiful Concorde. You are right to point out the difference between gas held at high pressure in a tank and the normal fuel tank of diesel or petrol, but it is not the fuel tank which is likely to catch fire, it's the fairly hot diesel in the common rail system, with all it's joints and couplings which is likely to give way,spraying hot oil under pressure onto the incredibly hot turbo chargers and manifolds with which it shares the engine compartment which is likely to be right up there at the scene of the accident. That's what we need to worry about. Perhaps we need to do as is done from time done about the"Gas attack Saga", and invite all those who have had a gas tank or bottle explode as a direct result of a road traffic accident to write in and tell us about it, then we could begin to evaluate the risk better? AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 bazooka - 2015-08-10 6:14 PM Iff alorry hit the back would'nt there be an allmighty bang? I should imagine so....In fact there would be an almighty bang if a lorry hit ANY vehicle. *-) Including yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 markh1 - 2015-08-11 4:40 PM Its not gas, in the tank its liquid, the clue is LPG - liquid petroleum gas, not sure who made the recommendation to turn off the gas when travelling, my hab heating system is designed to be used on the move, so the gas has to be on Yes, it is liquefied petroleum gas, but the clue is in the last bit - gas, not the first bit - liquefied. Is is only in liquid form because it has been compressed as, when sufficiently compressed, it is greatly reduced in bulk and turns to a liquid. The pressure required is substantial and, as soon as it is released, the LPG reverts to its gaseous state. With the supply left on at the tank, therefore, were a connecting pipe to be severed (possibly as a consequence of a traffic accident), the contents of the tank would would immediately begin escaping as gas. All you then need is a source of ignition. What would follow would depend on how much gas had escaped before it was ignited, but a fireball that would engulf the van seems quite probable, possibly extending to other vehicles in the vicinity. It is not so much whether you are using your hab heating that governs the risk, rather it is whether your gas tank has an automated means of immediately shutting off the gas flow if a pipe were ruptured. If it hasn't, then, with your heating on, you are travelling with both the gas and the source of ignition. Good luck with that! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Just had a look at Eurotunnel web site. Quote as follows. Vehicles powered by LPG or equivalent flammable gas as well as duel powered vehicles (vehicles fitted with an LPG or equivalent flammable gas tank as an alternative fuel) cannot be accepted for transport by Eurotunnel Le Shuttle, even if : the LPG or equivalent flammable gas tank is empty the LPG or equivalent gas mode of the vehicle is not selected Gas used for domestic services must be declared when askes and will be checked and there are restrictions on quantity allowed and number of bottles. Gas containers (tanks) for domestic services must not be more than 47kg (93 ltrs) . It states that the quantity will be checked via the gauge or remote indicator , but if neither is present the vehicle will be refused. I myself have Gaslow fitted and every time I have crossed the tap on the bottle has been checked to make sure it is turned of, this has only happened at the UK side and has never been checked if France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Brown Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I have an Autogas system. 50 something litrs of LPG. The system has a crash sensor so that in the event of a shunt, front back or sideways the valve closes. You then have to crawl underneath to reset it. I also have, at a sensible place, a single valve to turn off the gas to the van. This is probably three feet from the tank itself. I leave it on all the time as I am satisfied that the associated pipework is safely located and the only buggeration factor is a crash which is adequately covered by the crash sensor. I am told, although I have not used the tunnel, that the configeration of my system is acceptable to the tunnel authorities. If you have a professionally fitted underslung tank by someone like Autogas 2000 then I am sure you will be ok. Chris from Autogas is an expert in the 3m's mag so he has a lot to loose if the messes up. Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 We seem not to have been overwhelmed by reports from people who have first hand experience, or even secondhand experience, of exploding gas tanks or fires resulting from a crash. It would be awful I grant you, but it is so unlikely. You believe that there is a chance that something could accidentally happen and release gas from the system which would then be ignited and cause a fire or worse, despite the fact that the gas tanks and lockers are generally to the rear of the vehicle, and away from the potential sources of ignition, but you are happy to have the potential for there to be a spray of oil vapour under pressure squirting onto turbos and manifolds and into alternators, all potential sources of ignition. There is the thought that perhaps something could go under the vehicle and rip away part of the piping, with potentially disastrous consequences, but, if the installation is properly done there is no more chance of ripping off a gas pipe than there is of ripping off the pipes connecting the fuel tank to the high pressure pump, or the brakes to the brake pedal, which also lurk under the van and are equally vulnerable. It is all a matter of balance, there are potential dangers but by good design and installation, and ensuring that we operate things properly, we are generally able to keep the dangers in perspective. If you are one of those that is not able to come to terms with the potential danger of driving around with a gas tank then you are fully entitled to take whatever precautions you wish to ensure your safety, and you are certainly entitled to explain your beliefs to others. What you should not do is imply that those who do not follow your theories are idiots, or perhaps reckless, or even worse. Think about Possibility and Consequence, and above all remember the quotation that probably reflects the driving force behind much of the stuff we see on this forum:- DON'T TRY TO CONFUSE ME WITH FACTS, MY MIND IS MADE UP! AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Archiesgrandad - 2015-08-13 10:01 AM........................ What you should not do is imply that those who do not follow your theories are idiots, or perhaps reckless, or even worse.................AGD But I don't think anyone did make such an implication, Bill, did they? It all seems to me to have been a good humoured, well intended, discussion. Most of the contributions seem to me to have been concerned with pointing out how to avoid a risk which, while the possibility if it arising is remote, the consequences were it to be arise are potentially fatal. In this case, IMO, it is those serious consequences that make the risk worth avoiding (which is relatively easy), in preference to allowing its low probability to result in it being discounted. Or am I misunderstanding you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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