trialsrider Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 I've bought the panel, the cable , the controller and the brackets. I've been reading the informative web page of the late Allan from A and N Caravans. He suggests the use of spoiler brackets but he didn't go into detail of how to fit the panel to the bracket. Are people using self tapping screws from under the bracket into the underside of the panel to fix panel to bracket? Also he mentions screwing the panel to the van roof but the spoiler brackets won't allow it. Any ideas ? I was going to use sikaflex 512 as this is what is included in the majority of the kits I looked at. I note Allen recommends sikaflex 292. Any thoughts? Does anybody have photos of using these spoiler brackets on a corrugated PVC roof. Obviously the bracket would only be in contact with the high point of the corrugations if placed transversely across. Would this make the spoiler effect not work if wind can get under the low point of the corrugation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Whilst a mechanical fixing is obviously the lowest risk method of fixing the solar brackets to the van roof, if you accept that a correctly applied adhesive is sufficient (and I do) then Silkaflex 292i is imo perfect for the job. 292i is used for structural adhesion in marine applications and personally I’d use it in preference over 512 in the absence of a mechanical fixing. Without seeing the design of your solar brackets it’s difficult to provide an opinion on your proposed method of fixing. For my solar installation I made aluminium brackets and riveted the panel sides to the brackets. Self tapping screws would have also worked although I’d have been concerned with them becoming loose over time so would probably have applied some silkaflex to the screw and screw hole to act as a thread lock. If you adopt the adhesion only approach for attaching your panel brackets I’d urge you to carefully study the correct approach to take and in particular the need to abrade surfaces, correctly clean/prime surfaces and the methods for ensuring sufficient thickness of adhesive. I don’t use spoiler brackets so can’t assist you with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 14, 2020 Author Share Posted May 14, 2020 BruceM - 2020-05-14 11:18 AM Whilst a mechanical fixing is obviously the lowest risk method of fixing the solar brackets to the van roof, if you accept that a correctly applied adhesive is sufficient (and I do) then Silkaflex 292i is imo perfect for the job. 292i is used for structural adhesion in marine applications and personally I’d use it in preference over 512 in the absence of a mechanical fixing. Without seeing the design of your solar brackets it’s difficult to provide an opinion on your proposed method of fixing. For my solar installation I made aluminium brackets and riveted the panel sides to the brackets. Self tapping screws would have also worked although I’d have been concerned with them becoming loose over time so would probably have applied some silkaflex to the screw and screw hole to act as a thread lock. If you adopt the adhesion only approach for attaching your panel brackets I’d urge you to carefully study the correct approach to take and in particular the need to abrade surfaces, correctly clean/prime surfaces and the methods for ensuring sufficient thickness of adhesive. I don’t use spoiler brackets so can’t assist you with that. Totally agree with all you say. Here is a photo of the brackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Having now seen the brackets I appreciate your attachment issue, especially if future maintenance (eg panel replacement) is to be accommodated. Are these brackets attaching to the short or long edge of the solar panel? And am I right in assuming that this edge is the leading edge – ie facing the incoming air flow when the van is driven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 14, 2020 Author Share Posted May 14, 2020 BruceM - 2020-05-14 11:45 AM Having now seen the brackets I appreciate your attachment issue, especially if future maintenance (eg panel replacement) is to be accommodated. Are these brackets attaching to the short or long edge of the solar panel? And am I right in assuming that this edge is the leading edge – ie facing the incoming air flow when the van is driven? Yes you are correct. The spoiler will face the front of the van and will be on the narrow sides of the solar panels. I was thinking of maybe even screwing down With long self tapping screws through the panel from the top to the bracket below. However the brackets only look about 1mm and not much to purchase a thread on. This way at least I could remove the panel if needed. Could I maybe bond the panel to the brackets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 On the Peugeot Boxer the roof is curved transversely across so would the spoilers fit on ok?. I used angled aluminium on each corner which I fixed to the panel with self tappers which enabled me to allow for the curve and get the panel level. . (The kit from sunstore.co.uk came with the fixing material they recommend and the angled brackets) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 How to attach the panels to those brackets is a tricky one. Not much help but the plastic equivalent brackets that I've used have moulded lugs which you drill through to attach the panel on the vertical face of its frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Virtually identical brackets are used on the NDS "Aero" solar panels, one of which was fitted to my van by Vantage, and a second identical panel which I fitted myself. The panels are fitted transversely, which means that the brackets don't divert airflow from the leading edge of the panels, but they do of course allow a cooling flow of air between the panels and the roof. With the 100W panels fitted transversely to my Ducato, the brackets rest on the wide raised sections at either side of the roof panel just inboard of the roof rack/roller awning mounting lugs. The NDS panels have two holes drilled through the lower edge of each bracket, suitable for screw or bolt fixings. The panel installed by Vantage was secured to the roof with a bonding sealant between the brackets and the roof panel, and two self tapping screws on each side through the holes provided. I repeated the same fixing method on the second panel that I installed, and used Dekasyl MS2 as the bonding sealant. If you used the same method, you could of course run a longer section of spoiler bracket across the front of the panel should you wish, simply bonded to the raised sections of the roof panel, and without having to worry about it taking the load of the panel. If you want to block the gaps beneath the troughs, fill them with mastic tape sealant and run a bead of mastic across the leading edge to blend them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 14, 2020 Author Share Posted May 14, 2020 buddy - 2020-05-14 12:03 PM On the Peugeot Boxer the roof is curved transversely across so would the spoilers fit on ok?. I used angled aluminium on each corner which I fixed to the panel with self tappers which enabled me to allow for the curve and get the panel level. . (The kit from sunstore.co.uk came with the fixing material they recommend and the angled brackets) I'm hoping the 670mm span of the brackets should make this curve negligible. I hadn't thought of it to be honest. It's definitely another thing to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 I had to fit my panel across the van due to other fittings but even so the curve was not to much of a problem but as you say needs considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 The likelihood of having to remove the panels for maintenance is minimal. Unless something smashes them the first time anyone is likely to want to remove the panels is for replacement purposes in 10+ years time. So I think faced with your equipment combination I’d permanently fix the solar panels to the aero brackets – probably by using self tappers or rivets from below and perhaps with a skim of the bonding adhesive between the mating surfaces to act as a ‘just in case’ anti rattle damper. That would give me the equivalent of Deneb’s NDS Aero Solar panels. Then like Deneb I would adhere the solar panel bracket combination to the van’s roof and possibly include the four self tapping screws both to hold the panels in place whilst the adhesive sets and to provide a little mechanical fastening security. When it comes to changing the panels in the future it will of course be necessary to remove the four screws and cut through the sealant that bonds the panels to the roof. Not too onerous with a decent cheese wire although a bigger job than undoing a few screws/bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 If the van roof already has existing roof rack fixing points/bolts (as per Deneb's photo?) , why wouldn't you just utilise those and construct a frame to carrier the panels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 I installed our panel to the 'corrugated' roof of our PVC using 4 x 6mm Rivnuts and stainless steel bolts across each Aero bracket with them sat on a bed of Sikaflex 292 mastic. Each bolt and Rivnut was made to coincide with the raised portion of the corrugations. Due to the curvature of the roof I fully tightened the two inner bolts to fully compress to the Rivnut and tightened the outer bolts to just nip and so not distort the panel, once the Sikaflex had set I then made sure that the bolts were firmly held by both the nipping of the bolt and the setting of the Sikaflex. This seems to have given a very secure fixing that I am happy with, I would never have been happy with the panel just fixed by mastic. As has been said in other articles it is unknown how long a bonded on panel will remain attached and there is documented evidence of panels separating from motorhome roofs. I also notice on a very well known and respected supplier and installers site they have changed their installation advice to say that solar panels should be mechanically fixed as well as bonded, this is also advised on A&N's well respected site. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 I just used a nyloc nut/bolt approach to attach panels to the brackets. Relatively easy to remove when I need to (and I did twice already since october). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 15, 2020 Author Share Posted May 15, 2020 spirou - 2020-05-15 8:28 AM I just used a nyloc nut/bolt approach to attach panels to the brackets. Relatively easy to remove when I need to (and I did twice already since october). What sort of brackets have you got ? I did think of doing the same with mine and having the bolts underneath. Did you do one bolt on each edge so you could access the nuts with a spanner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 As explained in one other thread, it's not really a bracket but a roof rack made from Bosch-Rexroth alu profiles/rails. But as far as the panel is concerned it's the same thing. There are bolts at each corner, possibly one in the middle as well but I'm not entirely sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Well the panel arrived yesterday so I now have all the bits. I am surprised at how thin the aluminium is on the panel.. I was going to self tap screws between panel and bracket but now I think I'll rivet it instead. I've got rivets in various lengths but all are 3mm in width. I was planning on putting 10 rivets on each 670 bracket. Do people think this is adequate? Also when I offered up the bracket to the panel to See the curvature of the roof it really is quite curved. The panel rests perfectly over 5 corrugations but the middle one will literally not have any gap at all between bracket and roof for the adhesive. I've now bought sikaflex 292i instead of the 512. I will use the 512 on the gland. I wasn't going to screw and glue the brackets to roof but now because of the curvature of roof I think I may. With this sikaflex reportedly only having 40 mins of time before it goes off and me working alone I think all my time will be taken up getting the panel on and tooling the sikaflex. Could I screw at a later opportunity ? I was thinking I could let it go off then use self tappers. Remove screws and put sikaflex onto thread and into holes and screw down. Obviously if time is on my side I would do it all in one hit. I can't put the panel transversely due to me working alone. It is far easier to work from one side alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-05-19 6:17 AM I can't put the panel transversely due to me working alone. It is far easier to work from one side alone. I did mine on my own. Having placed the panel in the intended position on the roof and marked the contact areas, I removed it to prepare the roof surfaces for the bonding sealant and drill the marked holes for the four screws. I then put it back in place but resting on wooden battens placed inboard of the contact areas, such that the panel was raised a couple of inches above the roof. I then applied the bonding sealant and spacers to the roof on each side, removed one batten and lowered the panel into place on one side, putting in the two screws just enough to stop the panel moving whilst I took my step ladder to the other side, removed the second batten and lowered that side of the panel to the roof. Fully fitted all four screws, tooled the edges of the sealant and left it to cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Deneb - 2020-05-19 8:18 AM trialsrider - 2020-05-19 6:17 AM I can't put the panel transversely due to me working alone. It is far easier to work from one side alone. I did mine on my own. Having placed the panel in the intended position on the roof and marked the contact areas, I removed it to prepare the roof surfaces for the bonding sealant and drill the marked holes for the four screws. I then put it back in place but resting on wooden battens placed inboard of the contact areas, such that the panel was raised a couple of inches above the roof. I then applied the bonding sealant and spacers to the roof on each side, removed one batten and lowered the panel into place on one side, putting in the two screws just enough to stop the panel moving whilst I took my step ladder to the other side, removed the second batten and lowered that side of the panel to the roof. Fully fitted all four screws, tooled the edges of the sealant and left it to cure. Fairplay. You work quicker than I do. I like how you used the battons and screws to hold things in place. My panel is 150w. I will measure up later and see if it would fit transversely with brackets. I can't see an awning on your nearside. Do you have one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-05-19 8:52 AM My panel is 150w. I will measure up later and see if it would fit transversely with brackets. I can't see an awning on your nearside. Do you have one ? No. We carry a pop-up beach shelter for shade. I'm of the opinion that roll out awnings are invariably in the wrong place when you want to use them and, rightly or wrongly, consider them an unnecessary expense and weight penalty that can be better utilised elsewhere. But Vantage do fit roll out awning cassettes as an option, together with the transverse solar panels, so depending on the length (width) of your panel, it is possible. The NDS 100W panels are 1320mm overall width, including the aero brackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-05-19 6:17 AM I've got rivets in various lengths but all are 3mm in width. I was planning on putting 10 rivets on each 670 bracket. Do people think this is adequate? If I’ve understood your plan correctly then ten rivets per side seems like plenty and possibly over kill. My solar installation uses aluminium side angle brackets, two brackets on each side. They hold the solar panel with two rivets per bracket so that’s 8 rivets overall. The previous installation was precisely the same. Over the years it’s remained solid as a rock. In your case the weight of the panels is born by the bracket ledge so your rivets are simply there to prevent lifting and transverse movement. I reckon you’d get away with three or four and a light smear of Slkaflex on the mating surfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Deneb - 2020-05-19 9:47 AM trialsrider - 2020-05-19 8:52 AM My panel is 150w. I will measure up later and see if it would fit transversely with brackets. I can't see an awning on your nearside. Do you have one ? No. We carry a pop-up beach shelter for shade. I'm of the opinion that roll out awnings are invariably in the wrong place when you want to use them and, rightly or wrongly, consider them an unnecessary expense and weight penalty that can be better utilised elsewhere. But Vantage do fit roll out awning cassettes as an option, together with the transverse solar panels, so depending on the length (width) of your panel, it is possible. The NDS 100W panels are 1320mm overall width, including the aero brackets. Just measured mine. They would be 1600 Inc brackets.. I think that is too long looking at your photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 BruceM - 2020-05-19 10:28 AM trialsrider - 2020-05-19 6:17 AM I've got rivets in various lengths but all are 3mm in width. I was planning on putting 10 rivets on each 670 bracket. Do people think this is adequate? If I’ve understood your plan correctly then ten rivets per side seems like plenty and possibly over kill. My solar installation uses aluminium side angle brackets, two brackets on each side. They hold the solar panel with two rivets per bracket so that’s 8 rivets overall. The previous installation was precisely the same. Over the years it’s remained solid as a rock. In your case the weight of the panels is born by the bracket ledge so your rivets are simply there to prevent lifting and transverse movement. I reckon you’d get away with three or four and a light smear of Slkaflex on the mating surfaces. Too many than too little seems good to me. Do you reckon the 3mm rivets are enough. Just seems flimzy to me. I was thinking 4.8 or even 6.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 We have 2x160W @ 1480mm x 670mm and they fit transversely between the 3 roof windows and awning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeco Posted May 20, 2020 Share Posted May 20, 2020 A review of the Auto-trail website and their Tribute & V Line range shows images of their method of fastening solar panels. Could be of assistance. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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