noble1 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I hired a Wingham motorhome, It was the first time I had hired a motorhome, just prior to returning the vehicle I went to refill the fuel and stupidly I put 50p worth of diesel in the water inlet before realising my mistake. I immediately returned the vehicle to the hire company and informed them of my mistake, obviously without running any water through the taps or shower, in my defence it was a new vehicle and the water inlet had no signs written on it, with the key for the locking cap attached to the ignition keys. Anyway, I just assumed a tank empty and refill would be required, the hire company have however refused to return my £1000 insurance excess, can anyone out there confirm this to be justifiable. Kind Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Oh dear! :-S ... If it was a van you owned, as you only put a small amount in and you hadn't run it, you could probably(possibly?) sort it for a lot less than that (..although it would take more than just a drain and refill, as diesel does "taint"...). BUT, from the hire company's view, they would probably have to employ a dealer to sort it out...which would involve the vehicle being out of circulation... Also, they have the, presumably signed, paperwork in their favour...? As well as studying the paperwork for any get-outs, I suppose you could pursue the "un-labelled" water filler aspect?..(..was the hand-over briefing poor?). Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Sorry to hear the news, Mark. You're not the first to be confused by a lack of clear signs for water and fuel points. Unfortunately, the taint of diesel is almost impossible to remove from a fresh water tank. Attempts have been made in other such cases through repeated dosage of bio type products. However, the end result is often a new tank and filler pipe and in cases where the diesel has been drawn to a tap from the tank, the whole water supply may have to be replaced.. If you search on this topic, you'll see some of the issues. For example: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Diesel-in-the-water-tank-/22723/ Add in potential loss of revenue and its easy to see why the hire company has held on to your deposit. You may find your agreement has clauses that allow the hire company to 'recover full costs, in the case of gross negligence, in order to return the motorhome to the state in which it was handed over'. The agreement might also include something like 'the security deposit will be used to fund any loss or damage whatsoever to equipment'. I would be surprised if the agreement does not cover 'Demurrage' which is the daily rental rate for the period the motorhome is off fleet. However, I would certainly check your paperwork, ensure they justify the cost with a breakdown [a basic 100 lire fresh water tank will be just over £100 plus fitting; a special shaped tank, more], and see whether you can wriggle a bit over lack of signage. And I would press them to give back anything in excess of justifiable costs. You could also try Which magazine for help if your are a member or visit your local authority's trading standards' website which should give you a phone number for the Citizens Advice Service. They could probably give you a legal interpretation of your legal liabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 As Brock says, it will in part depend on how that part of the agreement is worded. I think they would be justified in retaining the cost of rectifying the error under almost any circumstances, but the question is whether that cost is reasonably as high as £1,000. As Brock also says, as it is a hire vehicle there is a further question of loss of revenue while the vehicle is being repaired and off hire. At today's hire costs, that could easily amount to £1,000. If the agreement merely says the insurance excess is forfeit in the event of any claim, I suspect you won't have much ground to argue. As said above, diesel has a dreadful taste and smell, and it seems to me possible that the fresh water tank on a hire vehicle would have to be replaced rather than washed out, to eliminate the possibility of the next hirer complaining that the water system was contaminated. Wingamms are not run of the mill motorhomes, and I have no idea how difficult changing the tank might be, or how long it would take to obtain a replacement, but I doubt either would be quick or easy. I think that judgement can only be made by the hire company, as they would be liable should a subsequent hirer be affected in some way. I'd therefore expect them to play safe. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 OUCH! .......... Though as others have said the bill is probably justified sadly :-( .............But if its any comfort even seasoned Moho owners are quite capable of making silly and expensive mistakes ;-) .......... We were on a campsite in Spain a few years back where a chap had filled his diesel tank with water 8-) .........Although I do believe drink may of been involved :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noble1 Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Thank you for all your replies, I will follow your advice and will again read the terms and conditions of the contract thoroughly . With regards to the handover, the company did explain the main functions of the motorhome, in hindsight labelling was not their strong point, none of the water taps to dispense with the grey water (two tanks) or the clean water were marked and positioning the vehicle over a drain made it virtually impossible to distinguish between tanks. On the Wingham the refuelling point is within the passenger door frame, however the water inlet was at the same height and next to the fuel inlet - positioned on its own as opposed to sitting alongside the electric socket further back and usually slightly higher. The key for the water locking cap was attached to the ignition key, again in hindsight and because of the devastation diesel in the water tank causes, this should have been separated and placed on a tab in a separate area and as I mentioned in my first post there was no "Water" markings on the water inlet. It may turn out that I am responsible, and that I do forfeit my insurance excess, but hopefully this post will assist anyone others. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 From what you've said it appears you may have a claim for some of your money back - they can't simply just blame you when they haven't taken the necessary measures to mitigate the risks in the first place - they know they are hiring to novice MHers and if they don't ensure that they have clear signage etc then they must surely take some responsibility. I've googled and come up with only 1 company hiring Wingamm MHs out so from what you've said I think it was the one pictured below that you hired, in which case I can certainly understand the mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 If indeed the water filling point was in the same vicinity of the fuel tank I would have thought you'd have every chance of refuting their claim against you if both the fresh water and diesel fuel fill points were not clearly labelled, I'd nip down and take photographs if that is at all possible, if they are not so marked it is clearly a glaring omission on both the converters and the hirers part. Good luck. ;-) Not that it makes you feel any better but I once put about a gallon of petrol in my fuel tank, and it IS clearly marked "diesel" :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 You said that you were returning the vehicle after you had had it on hire / used it - presumably for a period of time - how long ? In the time you had it on hire, had you not topped up the fresh water of fuel ? noble1 - 2015-07-27 12:54 PM I hired a Wingham motorhome, It was the first time I had hired a motorhome, just prior to returning the vehicle I went to refill the fuel and stupidly I put 50p worth of diesel in the water inlet before realising my mistake. I immediately returned the vehicle to the hire company and informed them of my mistake, obviously without running any water through the taps or shower, in my defence it was a new vehicle and the water inlet had no signs written on it, with the key for the locking cap attached to the ignition keys. Anyway, I just assumed a tank empty and refill would be required, the hire company have however refused to return my £1000 insurance excess, can anyone out there confirm this to be justifiable. Kind Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Sorry noble1, but I tend to side with the dealer. A very expensive mistake. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-07-27 10:47 PM you'd have every chance of refuting their claim against you if both the fresh water and diesel fuel fill points were not clearly labelled, Does that mean that all the people who put petrol in their diesel tank can claim against the car manufacturer (or car hire company) because the filling points are not 'clearly labelled' *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 AlanS - 2015-07-27 11:03 PM You said that you were returning the vehicle after you had had it on hire / used it - presumably for a period of time - how long ? In the time you had it on hire, had you not topped up the fresh water of fuel ? Good question. I also wonder why stop at '50p worth' of diesel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 pelmetman - 2015-07-27 5:27 PM OUCH! .......... Though as others have said the bill is probably justified sadly :-( .............But if its any comfort even seasoned Moho owners are quite capable of making silly and expensive mistakes ;-) .......... We were on a campsite in Spain a few years back where a chap had filled his diesel tank with water 8-) .........Although I do believe drink may of been involved :D ........ I bought my first (and current) motorhome from a dealer far from home. Took it home, noticed a strong taint to the water. Turned out to be diesel contamination involving the whole system, tank, pipes, taps, pump etc. Dealer immediately agreed a full replacement, strengthening my opinion that he knew all about it as he waved me off his forecourt. >:-) The workshop manager said it was a £5-6 k job. Back to topic, hire companies know they are dealing with MH novices, and should act accordingly as regards handover, signage etc. However, this is just an unfortunate mistake, as would be reversing into a tree, or clipping a wall, because you're not used to the size of the vehicle, and you wouldn't expect your excess back in these circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Peter James - 2015-07-28 8:09 AM Joe90 - 2015-07-27 10:47 PM you'd have every chance of refuting their claim against you if both the fresh water and diesel fuel fill points were not clearly labelled, Does that mean that all the people who put petrol in their diesel tank can claim against the car manufacturer (or car hire company) because the filling points are not 'clearly labelled' *-) I wasn't aware there were fresh water filling points on cars right next to the fuel tank fill points. :-S If for some reason there was, perhaps they wouldn't be clearly marked then eh ? I'll leave you and others to keep beating the guy up about possibly a very genuine mistake not entirely of his own making. >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 candapack - 2015-07-28 8:30 AM ..However, this is just an unfortunate mistake, as would be reversing into a tree, or clipping a wall, because you're not used to these size of the vehicle, and you wouldn't expect your excess back in these circumstances. Although, under those circumstances, it wouldn't have been reasonable to expect a hire company to have equipped the tree or wall with a "Do not drive into me" label. (lol) ...whereas it is reasonable to expect them to have labelled the key service points of their for-hire motorhome, either that, or to at least to have carried out a thorough handover. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noble1 Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Thanks to all who have replied, it makes interesting reading , thank you for posting the photograph of the actual Wingham model, - I always try to look at disputes / problems from both sides of the argument - I run a family business and the hirers do likewise - throughout the two weeks we took the opportunity to write down a short list of the problems we encountered with the vehicle , a list we passed on with the hirers at the conclusion of our trip - we were contemplating buying a motorhome but felt as first timers, we really required a holiday in one first. Regardless of the eventual outcome the experience was worthwhile, we bought with confidence . The question was asked "had I filled up both water and diesel during my hire" I had filled up both - I was just in automatic mode when I pulled into the garage and to make matters worse it was only £8 off the returning level, with regards to the 50p worth of diesel in the tank - I realised my mistake the moment I looked at the inlet, prior to that in my defence choosing the correct pump out of the four on offer was my only concern as a car driver for 30 years with only one inlet that accepts fuel. The strange thing is that once you opened the fuel flap DEISEL was written on the inside, manufactures should perhaps do the same with water especially given its location on the vehicle. I have been told of a chemical company to whom i've emailed (sales@xro-chemserv.co.uk) who may have a solution - I will pass on their reply. Thanks again. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-07-28 9:23 AM I'll leave you and others to keep beating the guy up about possibly a very genuine mistake not entirely of his own making. >:-( I haven't seen anyone 'beating the guy up' and I do sympathize because I think we have all done daft things, and its a small easy mistake that has turned out to be very expensive for somebody. But I don't think its helpful to tell him he has got a claim when he hasn't. That would be making a bad situation worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Oh..So it wasn't the first filling then Mark... After two weeks;and having used both fillers, I suppose the "..I didn't know...it wasn't labelled..what do you expect.." argument, carries somewhat less weight...:$ I suppose you'll just have to put it down as one of those things... Off topic.. I think Mark may've stumbled across the only advantage of A/Sleeper's Whale pump water filling system, that is being discussed elsewhere... ? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 noble1 - 2015-07-28 9:50 AM The question was asked "had I filled up both water and diesel during my hire" I had filled up both - I was just in automatic mode I can understand that and am quite capable of making the same mistake myself. The Diesel stickers are inside the safety flap so thats easier than the water filler that doesn't have a flap (The flap and recessed fuel cap is a safety item to stop the fuel cap being sheared off and fuel spillage if the vehicle overturns, not required with water). don't know where you can buy 'Water' stickers that would stay on externally through washing etc. But if it was labelled, in those circumstances I doubt if the label would have stopped my putting the wrong stuff in :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Recognizing a label alone might not work, car manufacturers have attempted to solve this problem by working with the fuel suppliers to produce filler nozzles and holes that are only supposed to pair with each other. Although my sister still managed to get some diesel in her petrol car (I have to admire her ingenuity in overcoming the manufacturers best efforts to prevent this *-) ) before phoning me up to tell me there was something wrong with her cars fuel filler because she had only managed to get a few pence worth of fuel into her nearly empty tank *-) But I can't see how motorhome manufacturers could do this with their water fillers without all water hose pipes cans etc having a standard size and shape of nozzle like modern fuel pumps do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Morning folks, My advice would be, breathe in, breathe,out, and move on. norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 noble1, have you looked at: http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t1282-water-tanks-contaminated-with-diesel This may give you some good ideas, provided that you still have access to the vehicle. If the hirer has it back in their hands, then you are at their mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelmorris Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 From my experience diesel will taint drinking water at the level of parts per billion. In your circumstances, I suspect the only viable solution would be to strip out and replace the entire water system. I think there is definitely a learning point for the hirer as my guess is that this is a mistake that is easy to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I don’t know whether this is relevant, but the company that hires (and UK-markets) Wingamm motorhomes is based in Edinburgh. This might mean that any ‘lack of labelling’ responsibilty or legal argument would come under Scottish law. This 2007/2008 MHFacts discussion recommends use of a product called “BioMagic” http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/49-tech-mech-chat/25432-help-fuel-water-tank-advice-needed-please.html BioMagic can still be obtained http://www.biomagic-uk.com/page2.html but - even if its use (or the use of any other cleaning method) by the hire company successfully removed all traces of diesel from the Wingamm motorhome’s water system - it would (in my opinion) be optimistic to expect this to affect the decision to withhold Mark’s deposit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The plot thickens, it now appears the OP had already filled up with diesel, and water prior, so would have been familiar what goes where, so this was by his own admission his mistake, . :-S £1000 would be more than justified if it was my Rapido, you have to take the whole bloomin front lounge apart, then get the sub floor up just to get to the tank...........then of course is the cost of the tank £500 from memory 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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