StuartO Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I came across this old thread which has an interesting discussion about the risks of driving with the gas still on, since when Truma have introduced regulators designed to be left on while driving, because they have an automatic shut off in the event of a crash. Truma habitation heaters also seem to be designed to be safe for use while driving. Not sure about gas powered fridges. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-bottle-on-or-off-when-travelling/14254/ In 2008 there were posters holding strongly opposing views about whether it was safe to leave the gas on at all while moving and most people said they always turned the gas off at the botles before moving - as of course you have to do for Eurotunnel and on ferries anyway. How do we feel about the risk of driving with a motorhome's gas supply left switched on nowadays? I've been considering installing one of Truma's latest regulators (£138 plus fitting, plus £30 each for a pair of burst-protected pigtails for the bottles) to replace the existing or alternatively fitting a remote gas switch (£95 plus fitting) to allow the gas supply to be switched off conveniently from inside the MH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ah but presumably a remote gas switch would still leave the main bottle top taps turned on. :'( Must confess I've always thought it a bit odd that my Truma heating is designed so that it can be used on the move, not that I have ever done so. and I always turn by bottles off. The other thing I have yet to see is Ferry staff check or even ask if folk have turned their bottles off, one of the reasons I make sure I suss out where the nearest a lifeboat point is :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Since at least 2001, I have tended to drive with the gas on. I will switch it off when going through tunnels, into filling stations or anywhere else where driving with the gas on is banned. It saves me clambering out to the gas locker on busy roads when we stop for a cuppa. In 2001, I had an Arto which permitted the use of the gas fire when on the move. Useful as we had children and were able to motorhome in the winter. Some years ago, the local Fire Brigade said in the local press that it preferred to deal with a fire from an 'on' gas bottle than with an explosion from a 'off' bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I had a long discussion about gas isolation with Eurotunnel last year as we wanted to use the tunnel rather than the ferry and it transpires that they are justifiably paranoid about any avoidable potential fire risk. To satisfy the Tunnel who, in my limited experience, do physically check almost every van as well as the Ferries who rarely if ever seem to check any van the gas should be turned off at source. No ifs buts or maybes - at source. At source means by a valve directly attached to the cylinder or tank which means without the use of any form of hose or pipework in between the valve and the container. I'm not sure how they would check a centrally mounted underslung tank but as I have no desire to lay on my back each side of the crossing to turn the tank on and off we used the ferry instead and made do with internal taps off. A remote switching valve would be acceptable for the tunnel as long as the switch could be proven to work and could be seen to be directly attached to the cylinder by their checkers. It may well be that some have got away with it but for me the risk of being refused a crossing is not acceptable. Previous discussion - https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Autogas-lpg-tanks-and-Eurotunnel/34967/31/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The relevant EC regulation relates only to gas-heaters being operated in a moving vehicle and overrides any EC national law that might forbid this. But, if there’s a national law (eg. as in France) that generally forbids gas appliances be operated in moving vehicles, the gas-heater-related ‘exemption’ won’t allow you to operate a gas fridge, hob, oven, etc. while travelling. I’m doubtful that retrofitting, say, the Truma “SecuMotion” system (there are others) to a motorhome that did not have that type of system originally will ‘legalise’ the vehicle as far as operating its gas-heater en route is concerned. No system of this type actually turns the gas-bottle’s outlet-valve off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 We use the latest version of truma (secure motion or crash safe? ), the pigtail has a valve which cuts off if rubber pipe bursts and reg has a crash sensor, we also turn off at manifold. Works for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-02-12 10:59 AM Ah but presumably a remote gas switch would still leave the main bottle top taps turned on. :'( You could fit the anti-burst bottle pigtails which Truma supply for use with the crash-protected regulators with a remote switch if you wanted, then your remote switch would be an enhanced, safer way of cutting off the gas. It would be just as good a cut off as swapping your regulator for one fot eh new one, slightly cheaper and, although lacking automatic crash-induced shut down, would allow you to shut off the gas manually from inside the MH. These special pigtails are available for all the various European bottle types, including our propane bottles. They have a device at the bottle end which detects if a pigtail hose fails and shuts the gas off at the bottle end. About £30 per pigtail. By the way Truma have stopped using the term "secumotion" and they no longer supply a crash valve which you can add to your existing regulator to incoorporate crash protection. You have to buy a crash-protected regulator instead. No reason why you can't fit a replacement crash-protected regulator, anti-burst pigtails and a remote gas switch - and that would cost you around £300 plus fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 There are many LPG powered cars, do they turn the gas off when on the move? Are they allowed on ferries/tunnel crossings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 DJP - 2015-02-12 3:31 PM There are many LPG powered cars, do they turn the gas off when on the move? Are they allowed on ferries/tunnel crossings? The gas to the engine is hard piped not flexible hoses although I am not sure what difference that would make in a fire and LPG powered vehicles are NOT allowed to use the tunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 DJP - 2015-02-12 3:31 PM There are many LPG powered cars, do they turn the gas off when on the move? Are they allowed on ferries/tunnel crossings? No, obviously not because the lpg is used to propel the vehicle. Their tanks also deliver liquid rather than vapourised lpg, so the rate of gas release if there is a piping failure is potentially higher. And their tanks are often much bigger than those carried on MHs for habitation purposes. I saw one advertised on EBay, intended as an American RV fuel tank or a converted petrol engine, which holds 170 litres of lpg. I don't know whether lpg propulsion systems incorporate crash-triggered shut off valves for the gas supply but it would seem to be desirable! And although part of their delivery system will be metal pipes, as are MH lpg systems, it won't all be metal piping because it travels from a tank fixed rigidly to the vehicle to an engine which wobbles about. There will therefore be at least one section of flexible piping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 StuartO - 2015-02-12 2:40 PM ...By the way Truma have stopped using the term "secumotion" and they no longer supply a crash valve which you can add to your existing regulator to incoorporate crash protection. You have to buy a crash-protected regulator instead... To the best of my knowledge Truma has never offered an 'anti-crash valve’ that could be added to an existing regulator. First came the “SecuMotion/Drive Safe’ system that combined specialised pigtails with a range of 'leak-sensing' regulators. This was superseded by the present “CS” (Crash Sensor) system that uses the same specilised pigtails but with differently designed ‘impact sensing’ regulators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 I bow to your superior knowledge Derek. Any way, you can't buy a separate crash sensor valve from Truma, you have to replace the regulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomongrundy Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 There's a mention earlier in this thread about Eurotunnel staff checking almost every MH to ensure the gas bottles are turned off – the last two times we were asked if it was off, yes we said, and that was it – no physical check by them. Whether they check or not it doesn't stop anyone turning it on when parked up on the train – we never have but it is possible! I wonder if there have ever been any 'gas incidents' with Motorhomes on the Eurotunnel crossings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Solomongrundy - 2015-02-12 7:12 PM There's a mention earlier in this thread about Eurotunnel staff checking almost every MH to ensure the gas bottles are turned off – the last two times we were asked if it was off, yes we said, and that was it – no physical check by them. Whether they check or not it doesn't stop anyone turning it on when parked up on the train – we never have but it is possible! I wonder if there have ever been any 'gas incidents' with Motorhomes on the Eurotunnel crossings? I had heard of people getting through Eurotunnel without being checked but every time we have ysed it we have been checked along with all the other caravans and motorhomes on board and I for one am very happy with their diligence! I guess it comes down to a case of 'do you feel lucky' - or not - and is the gamble worth the risk? I believe there have been four fires in the tunnel, at least two of which were lorry sourced, which may not sound a lot over the years given the volume carried but for me it is a bit too many to induce complacency whilst also too few to induce paranoia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 This thread was about driving with gas on or not during ordinary use of a motorhome, rather than taking one into a special environment like the Channel Tunnel. Eurotunnel have special risks to manage and they publish a very clear set of rules, including that all gas bottles (or tanks, when permitted) must be turned off at the bottle. There is no discretion. The staff might have become more trusting of motorhomers compared with years gone by, which might explain why sometimes they do not physically check every valve, as perhaps they used to. You still need to turn the valves off. LPG is heavier than air and even the smallest leaks might therefore accumulate inside the Chunnel, which goes downhill from one side and then climbs uphill on the exit leg. They probably have a detection and extraction system but it still makes sense to minimise the risk of lpg getting in there. But does this have anything to do with leaving your gas turned on when it's at your own discretion, when you are driving along on the surface? I suggest not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 You did actually mention Eurotunnel and the ferries yourself so turning the gas off is relevant unless you choose to have tunnel vision in conversation and can only cope with one aspect at a time. Imagine if you will this being a real conversation in real life when the topic would get bounced about with everyone having an input of what they consider to be relevant and without fear of criticism or nit picking by someone intent only on mischief making. If a post is of no interest to you the polite thing to do is to ignore it and move on as it may well interest others, which is what most of us do with so many posts, but perhaps being new to the forum you have yet to appreciate that aspect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 There he goes again................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 You really are deluded Stuart if you think that I post on here simply to annoy you as you really are far too insignificant for that to happen and I have far better ways to amuse myself than baiting you. There is no way it could be construed that my initial postings were anything other than informative and I wonder why it is once again only you that seeks confrontation by provocation just because you once again choose to take things out of context so that you can be offended. You are one very sad individual totally blinded by your own campaign of hate that you can never win but now as ever I will bear you no ill feeling or grudge and will forgive you your past actions, so can we just agree to differ and move on and I will not provoke you, not that I ever have, if you don't provoke me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 And again .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 StuartO - 2015-02-12 10:31 AM................How do we feel about the risk of driving with a motorhome's gas supply left switched on nowadays?.............. I am relaxed about doing so, and have been doing this since 2007. The vans in question have both had Truma impact detecting installations. A point to note with these is that the primary safety feature seems to me to be the cylinder pigtails incorporating a pressure triggered shut-off valve in the cylinder connection, without which, depending on country, driving with the gas cocks open is not legal (or is claimed to be illegal). These are designed to eliminate gas escapes at cylinder pressure if a flexible hose is ruptured in an accident. The impact triggered shut-off at the regulator seems to me less critical to safety, since gas conduits on the low pressure side are generally of metal and so less prone to damage. Without the Truma system (or other similarly authorised system) the general advice is to turn off the gas at the cylinder when driving. In some countries, notably France, this is a legal requirement. Whether or not the Truma system is installed, gas is should be turned off on all ferries and in the Channel tunnel. Standard conditions of carriage require this, whether or not the valves are inspected. The well documented consequences of fires in the Channel tunnel and the recent instance of a fire on a Greek ferry in the Adriatic, plus a modicum of common sense, surely dictate this regulation is observed, whether physically enforced or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gram Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Tracker, I have every respect for what you say. But, if this was ' a real conversation in real life', maybe a few chums having a chat in a bar, would you turn on Stuart in this way? G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 No because Stewart would not comment in that manner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Don't get you Will, There is nothing on this thread I wouldn't say to Tracker's face and I don't see that I was being in any way offensive to him. I called him something which rhymes with banker on another thread, regreted it and apologised for doing so on the forum - but I wouldn't hesitate to call him that to his face either! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-02-13 6:54 PM A point to note with these is that the primary safety feature seems to me to be the cylinder pigtails incorporating a pressure triggered shut-off valve in the cylinder connection, without which, depending on country, driving with the gas cocks open is not legal (or is claimed to be illegal). These are designed to eliminate gas escapes at cylinder pressure if a flexible hose is ruptured in an accident. The impact triggered shut-off at the regulator seems to me less critical to safety, since gas conduits on the low pressure side are generally of metal and so less prone to damage. .....I think this demonstrates a significant difference between the previous Truma "Secumotion" regulator and the current "CS" system. In essence, the previous Secumotion system relied on excess flow sensing in the high pressure side via the valve incorporated in the hose, and excess flow in the low-pressure side via incorporation of a flow sensing device and shut-off in the regulator. This would thus close off the system if there were a breach in either the high-pressure or low-pressure side (caused by any reason, not only a collision). Whilst the CS system relies on the same measures on the high pressure side, the other protection is simply provided by "impact sensing" which will obstruct the flow at the regulator (protecting the low-pressure side) in the event of a collision. Whilst this will have both the effect of turning off the heating if it is in use, and protecting against a potential breach of the low-pressure circuit, it is dependent on an impact, and won't protect against simple breach or leakage in the low-pressure side that occurs without an impact. As a result, it appears to me to be inherently less safe than the previous system. One may wonder why Truma have taken such an apparently retrograde step, but my experience (along with others) is that the flow-sensing in the Secumotion regulator could be a bit "flaky". In theory, each installation should have had a regulator fitted with a flow-rate tailored to the maximum potential consumption in normal circumstances (excess flow over and above this causing the regulator to "trip"). In reality, there were (I think) only two flow-rates available for installation, and if the lower were selected for safety, then it is/was not unknown for the unit to trip when running at medium to high demand. If the higher flow rate were selected for installation to give some overhead, then an element of protection was potentially lost. The requirement to do calculations to determine which version to fit meant that the Secumotion regulator was not made generally available for aftermarket use. The current CS version, however, being a single fit and forget variant, most certainly is. Maybe the change was one simply of finding a bigger market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-02-16 9:54 AM Whilst the CS system relies on the same measures on the high pressure side, the other protection is simply provided by "impact sensing" which will obstruct the flow at the regulator (protecting the low-pressure side) in the event of a collision. Whilst this will have both the effect of turning off the heating if it is in use, and protecting against a potential breach of the low-pressure circuit, it is dependent on an impact, and won't protect against simple breach or leakage in the low-pressure side that occurs without an impact. As a result, it appears to me to be inherently less safe than the previous system. ... You have the option of fitting a Truma Remote Gas Switch, which goes downstream of the regulator (and the crash valve) on the LP side and althoiugh absolute safety (or rather relative absolute safety!) requires turning of the bottles at their valves, you would then have got pretty close to belt, braces and piece of string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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