colin Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-02-16 9:54 AM As a result, it appears to me to be inherently less safe than the previous system. For us, the anti burst protects up to the reg, the reg protects up to the manifold, the manifold is turned off. The manifold is opposite the fridge and just a step away from the hob and heater controls, so we are happy that we have a convenient to use safe set up. On a well designed and assembled set up there shouldn't be a lot more risk than a vehicles fuel system which uses a similar crash sensor and multiple joints some under much higher pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 StuartO - 2015-02-16 10:37 AM Robinhood - 2015-02-16 9:54 AM Whilst the CS system relies on the same measures on the high pressure side, the other protection is simply provided by "impact sensing" which will obstruct the flow at the regulator (protecting the low-pressure side) in the event of a collision. Whilst this will have both the effect of turning off the heating if it is in use, and protecting against a potential breach of the low-pressure circuit, it is dependent on an impact, and won't protect against simple breach or leakage in the low-pressure side that occurs without an impact. As a result, it appears to me to be inherently less safe than the previous system. ... You have the option of fitting a Truma Remote Gas Switch, which goes downstream of the regulator (and the crash valve) on the LP side and althoiugh absolute safety (or rather relative absolute safety!) requires turning of the bottles at their valves, you would then have got pretty close to belt, braces and piece of string. ....a suggestion that doesn't in any way address the difference that I've pointed out (as it provides no automatic shut-off for a gas installation in-use in-motion, either in the event of excess flow or an accident - unless the latter interrupted the 12v power). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 colin - 2015-02-16 11:44 AM Robinhood - 2015-02-16 9:54 AM As a result, it appears to me to be inherently less safe than the previous system. For us, the anti burst protects up to the reg, the reg protects up to the manifold, the manifold is turned off. The manifold is opposite the fridge and just a step away from the hob and heater controls, so we are happy that we have a convenient to use safe set up. On a well designed and assembled set up there shouldn't be a lot more risk than a vehicles fuel system which uses a similar crash sensor and multiple joints some under much higher pressures. ....whilst not trying to be pedantic, (;-)) I can't say I agree fully with this. The original query was about driving with the gas on. You might just be lazy, or as I see it might want to do it for two main reasons: 1. The cylinder-top valves are fairly inaccessible (as I suspect is the case on your 'van). In which case it is simply for "convenience". In this case, turning appliances off at a more accessible manifold would certainly provide a greater level of protection, but wouldn't remove the risk (of, say, a loose joint at or before the manifold). 2. You want to use an "in-travel" gas heater whilst on the move - AFAIK, what the specific regulators were originally designed for. In this circumstance, at least one appliance wouldn't be turned off at the manifold, and there would be more joints and pipe which may be at risk. The point I was making was that the CS regulator requires an impact to isolate the low-pressure side of the circuit, and thus is operative only in the event of an accident violent enough to activate the cut-off. The previous Secumotion device was designed to sense excess-flow in the low-pressure side of the circuit, and thus would operate in the event of a low-pressure leak caused by any event, and is thus (IMO, and subject to respective reliability) inherently safer. The comparison with the vehicle fuel system doesn't work for me, either. I can appreciate there is a certain similarity between both systems working with a crash-sensor, but use of the Secumotion system effectively protected against the equivalent of a severed fuel line on a vehicle when a crash hasn't taken place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 SecuMotion/Drive-Safe regulators were marketed in three different gas flow-rate ‘flavours' (0.8kg/h, 1.2kg/h or 1.5kg/h) and all of them were advertised in Truma’s UK leisure-products brochure. However, as Robinhood has highlighted, in order to achieve full effectiveness a SecuMotion system needed to be matched to the leisure-vehicle’s gas-appliance demands. Failure to do this correctly could compromise the SecuMotion regulator’s capability to detect minor gas leaks on the low-pressure side of the regulator. Truma’s CS system simplifies matters for the leisure-vehicle manufacturer and (in my view) is more easily understood by the leisure-vehicle user. It doesn’t sense gas leaks on the regulator’s low-pressure side, whereas SecuMotion did not have an impact-sensing gas cut-off. As I said earlier, there are (or have been) alternative systems to Truma’s. As far as I’m aware these are/were all based on impact-sensing and were branded “Savex”, “Toptron” or “Favex”. The Toptron product is shown here http://www.toptron.de/cpu/cpu.html and the Savex/Favex systems work similarly, with an electrically-operated shut-off valve on the high-pressure side of the regulator and a remote ‘black box’ and control-switch. Historically, French motorhome manufacturers have been fond of the Savex- and Favex-branded systems, and Rapido currently fits a Favex system to some models and a Truma system to others. As far as I’m concerned none of these systems is as ‘safe’ (whatever “safe” means!) as turning off the outlet valve of a gas bottle/tank but, if the outlet valve is turned off, obviously it won’t be possible to operate a gas heater in a moving vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanedwin Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have just ordered a 4 port Gasit cylinder which offers the following:- 1) The Gas outlet is fitted with a full excess flow valve meaning the tank will shut off automatically if the pigtail bursts ( not fitted in any other bottle) and this does not need a secumotion type regulator to use your appliances whilst driving if they are approved for it. 2) Inside the tank there is a full Liquid Phase Seperator© which stops any liquid from leaving the bottle. How does this fit into the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 ...the theory is that this provision removes the need for the special pigtails with the excess-flow valve incorporated at the cylinder end (otherwise required for "drive-safe" provision with Truma Secumotion or CS regulators), since the provision is in the cylinder's outlet tapping. Despite Gasit claiming uniqueness, one of the other major refillable sellers offers this on one of their bottle types. Edit to add: ....and I note that Gasit state that "this doe snot need a secumotion type regulator to use your appiences whilst driving if they are approved for it" (sic) - advice that I would question, as I believe Truma would advise that a Secumotion or CS regulator would be required, as the function replicated in the bottle is only that of the specialist pigtail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think how 1) above fits in depends on the market/s to which the statement is intended to apply. In UK, AFAIK, there is no restriction on driving with gas cocks open (I don't know about using a gas fired appliance while driving, but logically, if you can have the gas on, why not?). However, in other countries, notably France, there it is (or at least was) illegal to do this unless an approved safaty system was used. Truma products tend to be modelled around German practise, and are then adapted to the European markets, so I would suspect these systems were primarily developed to comply with German legal requirements, and have since been more widely marketed as having safety benefits. I therefore think it would be worth checking independently whether the Gasit excess flow valve will meet the full requirements of other European states, if you intend visiting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 We seem to be getting spoiled for choice. Gasit have incorporated an excess flow shut off into a gas bottle (which provides an alternative to Truma anti-burst pigtails) and Toptron supply a crash-triggered LP valve which couples to the regulator and has a remote reset switch. Could the Toptron crash valve be added to an existing regulator (any regulator?) and does the remote reset switch also operate as a manual shut off? I looked at Toptron's website but it's in German and although Google Translate performed well, the website didn't seem to make the effect of the remore switch very clear. Couldn't find anything on Savex. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-02-16 12:22 PM colin - 2015-02-16 11:44 AM Robinhood - 2015-02-16 9:54 AM As a result, it appears to me to be inherently less safe than the previous system. For us, the anti burst protects up to the reg, the reg protects up to the manifold, the manifold is turned off. The manifold is opposite the fridge and just a step away from the hob and heater controls, so we are happy that we have a convenient to use safe set up. On a well designed and assembled set up there shouldn't be a lot more risk than a vehicles fuel system which uses a similar crash sensor and multiple joints some under much higher pressures. ....whilst not trying to be pedantic, (;-)) I can't say I agree fully with this. The original query was about driving with the gas on. You might just be lazy, or as I see it might want to do it for two main reasons: 1. The cylinder-top valves are fairly inaccessible (as I suspect is the case on your 'van). In which case it is simply for "convenience". In this case, turning appliances off at a more accessible manifold would certainly provide a greater level of protection, but wouldn't remove the risk (of, say, a loose joint at or before the manifold). 2. You want to use an "in-travel" gas heater whilst on the move - AFAIK, what the specific regulators were originally designed for. In this circumstance, at least one appliance wouldn't be turned off at the manifold, and there would be more joints and pipe which may be at risk. The point I was making was that the CS regulator requires an impact to isolate the low-pressure side of the circuit, and thus is operative only in the event of an accident violent enough to activate the cut-off. The previous Secumotion device was designed to sense excess-flow in the low-pressure side of the circuit, and thus would operate in the event of a low-pressure leak caused by any event, and is thus (IMO, and subject to respective reliability) inherently safer. The comparison with the vehicle fuel system doesn't work for me, either. I can appreciate there is a certain similarity between both systems working with a crash-sensor, but use of the Secumotion system effectively protected against the equivalent of a severed fuel line on a vehicle when a crash hasn't taken place. Without going to too much detail, mainly no1, once? no2, but don't rule out me being just plain lazy :D You may have misunderstood my point, a 'live' gas system shouldn't be any worse than a 'live' fuel system in a vehicle, when traveling the fuel system is not turned off, so can be subject to leaks brought about due movement and vibration etc, the only safety system for either is a crash sensor. BTW as part of my normal employment I'm involved in the design manufacture and fitting of 'one off' fuel systems for aircraft, apart form having secondary locking of joints there's no other safety systems such as crash sensors in the ones I deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Colin has a point; there is no absolute fire safety (short of not carrying eithr lpg or inflamable fuel of any kind) and even if you did contrive a MH which could do without them entirely, other vehicles with which you collide could still be the source of a conflagration which could engulf you. So a sense of proportion is required. I think the HP side of my installation is pretty robust and the chances of free flow from that during a road accident are small. Less so the LP side and I would like to have remote switching (because I'm lazy about shutting off at the bottles before travelling) and I might as well have crash protection incorporated into that valve too. The more I think about it the more the Toptron crash valve appeals. It looks like the remote switch which comes with it operates as a manual shut off and the associated "black box" triggers it automatically in the event of a crash. It might even fit on to my existing Truma regulator, which might suit my needs even better because that doesn't need replacing. Anyone know a UK (or if necessary a German) stockist? If it's not rediculously expensive compared to the Truma Remote Gas Switch, which costs £95, I might give it a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-02-16 4:49 PM ...the theory is that this provision removes the need for the special pigtails with the excess-flow valve incorporated at the cylinder end (otherwise required for "drive-safe" provision with Truma Secumotion or CS regulators), since the provision is in the cylinder's outlet tapping.................... BTW Robin, are you sure the Truma pigtail valve is an excess-flow valve? My impression from ours is that it is pressure sensitive, but not flow sensitive. That is to say the valve has to be "set" after the cylinder cock is opened, and is then held open by the pressure in the HP side. If the cylinder cock is later closed and the cylinder left connected, the valve will, eventually close (takes a few days), with zero flow, merely due to the pressure drop. Same when a cylinder is swapped. Once the dead cylinder is disconnected (loss of pressure in pigtail) and the new connected and turned on to re-pressurise the pigtail, the valve has to be re-set before gas will flow to the regulator. The earlier Secumotion regulator was a bit of a PITA. When re-connecting the gas cylinders and bleeding the system of air the flow valve would cut off as each section of the systen was purged via the manifold. This was because of the initial flow surge as each leg was opened in turn, necessitating repeated trips back to re-set the regulator. The work around was to light one of the hob burners, so initiating a flow, and then the fridge with its additional modest flow, before trying the heater. This routine seemed to fool the system sufficiently to prevent regulator shutting off as each appliance kicked in. Present van has CS, and purging requires only the pigtail valve to be set before gently opening each manifold valve in turn, and then lighting a burner. I take your point about the greater safety in the flow sensor of Secumotion, but regard the most severe actual risk to be that of an HP leak, due to a severed pigtail in an accident. This, within limits, the pigtail valve seems to handle. In a severe accident I guess the connector, and/or the gas cock, might be sheared off at the cylinder! I just hope not to experience what happens then! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-02-17 5:46 PM BTW Robin, are you sure the Truma pigtail valve is an excess-flow valve? My impression from ours is that it is pressure sensitive, but not flow sensitive. ...no I'm not (and Truma do term it HRP (Hose Rupture Protection)). I was rather using "excess flow valve" in a generic manner, not really thinking about it. However......though it's more than 40 years since a German Professor last taught me (or attempted to) fluid mechanics, I still remember that flow and pressure are generally interrelated ;-). (and that's about all I do remember). I think you'll find that (most) excess flow valves are triggered by the variation in differential pressure between the input and outlet sides (I suspect involving passing the "fluid" through a venturi). Some auto-reset, and others will require a reset method such as the green Truma button. I still wouldn't stake my life on it, but I'd be quite surprised if the Truma HRP is not such a system. I'm not exactly paranoid about motorhome gas installations, but I do like to take care with them. As you will know, Hobby don't require a habitation service for their warranty purposes, but they do require an annual damp test. I generally have a gas pressure test carried out with the damp test, just for safety. On the current 'van, however, that failed to find the source of the slight gas smell that had been there from new. Carried out to spec, the gas pressure test monitors only the downstream side of the regulator (which was perfectly OK). After much investigation, I found that the Truma HRP hose, though tight on the regulator, was in fact, cross-threaded (not difficult, since the regulator thread actually has "flats" on it). What started as only the tiniest of leaks had slowly eaten the sealing washer, and over several years the effect was getting worse. Replacing the washer and remounting a hose properly threaded (not easy) has fixed the issue completely. I'm rather glad that I normally travel with the gas off at the cylinder!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hobby and Burstner are apparently the manufacturers who offer the Toptron shut off valve as an optional extra. Not yet clear whether Toptron deal with anyone else and they appear to be a bit poor at responding to enquiries. Their valve has been going for quite a few years and they still seem to be actively i business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Robinhood - 2015-02-17 6:45 PM.....................After much investigation, I found that the Truma HRP hose, though tight on the regulator, was in fact, cross-threaded (not difficult, since the regulator thread actually has "flats" on it). What started as only the tiniest of leaks had slowly eaten the sealing washer, and over several years the effect was getting worse. Replacing the washer and remounting a hose properly threaded (not easy) has fixed the issue completely. ................. And should do wonders for your gas consumption into the bargain! :-) I am aware that a pressure differential is essential to generate a flow, but not much more. I have peered at these valves when removed, and could only see what I thought was what I would call a "jumper" that is expelled from its seating by a spring, in which state the valve is closed, and held against it by (gas) pressure, in which state the valve is open. But, lacking X-ray eyes, it is quite possible I saw only what I was expecting, and could not see very much in any case. Whatever, they seem quite sensitive, and they do seem to work. We have (and have previously had) an automatic changeover valve, so I test the gas tightness of the installation with that. Having purged all air from the system, I open the gas cock on the service cylinder with all manifold valves open, so that only the appliance valves are preventing gas flow. I then shut off the gas at the cylinder, and open the gas cock on the reserve. It usually takes two to three days for the pressure in the line to drop enough for the valve to switch to the reserve. Not calibrated, obviously, but it seems to me to give a good indication of gas-tightness. If I'm not quite convinced, I reverse the test with the reserve as the service cylinder and service as reserve, just in case the changeover valve is letting by. I'm interested by your experience with the pig-tail connection, as it has always seemed to me that the HP side of the regulator would be more prone to leaks than the LP side. Apart from the relative pressures, they just seem to be such "soft" joints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 StuartO - 2015-02-17 7:43 PM Hobby and Burstner are apparently the manufacturers who offer the Toptron shut off valve as an optional extra. Not yet clear whether Toptron deal with anyone else and they appear to be a bit poor at responding to enquiries. Their valve has been going for quite a few years and they still seem to be actively i business. I believe you may have gained a false impression about what the 'Toptron system’ actually is. Although Burstner certainly offers an (optional) gas-safety system that includes Toptron-made components, I think Hobby just uses/has used Toptron battery-charging equipment. My understanding is that Toptron’s contribution to the system used by Burstner (and to the similar FAVEX system Pilote and Rapido have chosen for some of their motorhome models) is limited to the electronics - essentially to just the microprocesser controller and the On/Off switch. The solenoid valve used will not be a Toptron product, neither will the regulator. The photo on the Toptron website is several years old and shows a solenoid valve attached to a Cavagna regulator attached to a Cavagna changeover device. This is not surprising as there’s a business link between Cavagna and Toptron (and FAVEX is part of the Cavagna Group). I don’t know what the current Burstner assembly looks like, but there’s a picture of the FAVEX version on Page 86 of this Rapido brochure. http://en.calameo.com/read/000355625b29c113e43e7 At the NEC Show I asked a Burstner dealer I know well if he could comment on the Toptron option, but he was not aware that any motorhome he’d sold had had it fitted. I also asked a Rapido agent about the FAVEX system and he was not aware that there had been any problems with the system on those Rapido vehicles they’d sold that had been FAVEX-equipped. I’m doubtful that the FAVEX system fitted to some Rapidos (and whatever equipment arrangement that’s an option on Burstners) is marketed for retrofitting. As you’d have to obtain not just the Toptron bits but also the shut-off valve (and possibly a matching regulator) if you wanted to add ‘impact protection’ you’d be better in my view to take the Truma CS route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianj8793 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We have ours on all the time except when going through the tunnel. That always check your gas is off and I am glad they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I assume those that keep the gas on when travelling do so because they have to go outside to turn it on ( for a tea break ) ? Can't think of any other reason why it's necessary. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 malc d - 2015-02-25 9:35 PM I assume those that keep the gas on when travelling do so because they have to go outside to turn it on ( for a tea break ) ? Can't think of any other reason why it's necessary. (?) You can also run the Truma heater on the move if you want, but as you say main reason for us was after wanting to turn on the gas when it was absolutely pouring down outside, having been used to my DIY T25 and just having to open a small flap whilst sat next to hob, it seemed stupid to have to go outside open both rear doors and move anything in the boot to get at the gas. On later Globecars they have fitted a small flap, but you still have to open both rear doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-02-19 12:09 PM ....if you wanted to add ‘impact protection’ you’d be better in my view to take the Truma CS route. Thanks Derek, very useful - and I agree, if you want both the convenience of a remote gas switch and crash protection, then the Truma CS plus their Remote Gas Switch is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcheetham Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I turn our gas off and even if we had any kind of safety thing I still would turn it off on the bottles. It only takes a few seconds to turn them on again and Gas is so lethal I just don't see the point in driving with the bottles switched on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Abcheetham Let’s imagine that your motorhome were an Auto-Sleepers model fitted as standard with a fixed LPG tank located beneath the floor, and where turning the gas on and off at the tank’s outlet-valve involves lying on the ground. Would you be equally prepared to turn off the gas prior to travelling (and turn it back on each time you stopped) if doing so involved scrabbling underneath the vehicle? I suspect not... The advice that LPG bottles always be turned off before travelling is fine for caravans where travel usually involves longish uninterrupted journeys punctuated by longish stays on campsites and gas is habitually carried in removable ‘bottles’. If a motorhome has LPG bottles and its usage-pattern is caravan-similar, it makes some sense safety-wise to turn off the gas at the bottle and doing so is unlikely to be inconvenient. But if a motorhome’s usage pattern is more like that of a caravan’s tow-car when the caravan is on-site (ie. the car often being used for several trips off-site per day) and/or the motorhome has a fixed gas tank, continually switching the gas off and on will rapidly become an irritant. (It’s noticeable that, although both of the UK’s ‘camping’ clubs advise that gas bottles should always be turned off before travellling, neither has the temerity to suggest that the same procedure should be followed for fixed gas tanks.) Technical advancements have resulted in gas-fuelled heating systems capable of being used legally while a leisure-vehicle is being driven, and fridges that automatically select gas, 12V or 230V as a power source. In order to benefit from the heating system’s in-transit capability a motorhome’s gas-supply obviously cannot be turned off, and there’s a disincentive to switch the supply off and on if you have a fridge that will automatically ’seek’ a gas-supply of its own volition. If it only takes you a few seconds to turn your motorhome’s gas bottles off and on and there’s no inconvenience involved (perhaps you can reach the bottles’ valves from within the vehicle) I can understand you doing this. But I would have thought it’s easy enough to appreciate why many motorcaravanners (including me) choose not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-03-14 8:22 AM If it only takes you a few seconds to turn your motorhome’s gas bottles off and on and there’s no inconvenience involved (perhaps you can reach the bottles’ valves from within the vehicle) I can understand you doing this. But I would have thought it’s easy enough to appreciate why many motorcaravanners (including me) choose not to. I suppose it depends on why someone chooses not to though... If, as has been said, it's due to having an inaccessible underslung tank, poorly deigned gas locker access or the need to run the onboard heating, etc, then fair enough but if it's just because they think that they may to be pulling over in the next hour or two to stick the kettle on, then I would think that's just being bone idle. (lol) Different subject matter- But I recall a discussion on here quite a while back, where several posters quested the reasoning in turning off their hab' control panels whilst driving..because(paraphrase) "...we'll only need to turn it back on again when we stop.." (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn22 Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 like a lot of motorhomers I also drive with gas on, how ever I have just got back from my winter in Spain and after waiting for more than 1 hour after my sailing time for My ferry we were told they had gone on strike and we would have to use euro tunnel the man did ask if gas had been turned off which I had done but never saw him check anyone >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodach Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Northlink Ferries from Aberdeen to Lerwick have always checked our van and asked to actually see the gas bottles to check they were off. Mind you this is an overnight crossing so mebbe more careful than the short ones where Calmac have never checked tho' they sometimes ask if gas is off.I have had my car checked a couple of times on Oban to Craignure where they are looking for petrol or diesel tins full or empty. Empty ones are regarded as more dangerous than full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 It might help contributors to maintain focus if I remind everyone that this Thread is about whether you choose to switch your gas off while driving and the technology which helps. It is not about whether you need to turn off for a ferry or for Eurotunnel, which you have no choice about unless you want o break their rules. Nor is it about whether ferry and tunnel operators consistently enforce their rules. Thanks for the excellent contributions. I have arranged to have a new (crash protected) Trume regulator and a Truman Remote Gas Switch fitted to my MH to allow me to continue driving with the gas on while driving and at the same time be a bit safer than otherwise. I will of course continue to turn off at the bottles for ferry and Chunnel crossings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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