Refillable with inboard filler - refused fill?

[A900ss]

Hi,

 

I’ve just bought a Sprinter Camper and am seriously considering a Gaslow/Gasit refillable system. I don’t really want to drill a hole in my van so would like to drill a hole in the gas locker which is accessible when you open the sliding door on the side of the van.

 

I’ve read about people stating possible problems with filling via an inboard fill point vs a fixed exterior fill point but some of these threads are quite old.

 

If you have an inboard fill point on your gas locker, can you let me know your experiences? I’d really like to know about UK and Europe especially the Alps area.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Derek Uzzell]

Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums.

 

This recent forum thread was about Gaslow systems and discussed not having a ‘remote’ LPG filling-point.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gaslow-bottles/58139/

 

When an LPG filling-point is not remote, the filling-point will most likely be inside a purpose-designed gas locker of a ‘coachbuilt’ motorhome and connecting the LPG pump’s filler-gun will involve opening the gas-locker’s door. Although opening the locker door may be looked on with disfavour by a service-station attendant, the filling process should still be reasonably safe as gas should not find its way into the motorhome’s habitation area.

 

However, you say that the gas-locker of your campervan is inside the vehicle’s living area and the locker-mounted filling-point would be accessed through the opened side sliding door. To me this sounds like an unnecessarily risky approach and you’d be much better opting for a remote filling-point that avoids the sliding door needing to be opened. Fitting the filling-point need not involve drilling a hole in your campervan’s bodywork, you could lead the filling hose out of the gas locker and mount the filling-point on an external bracket (examples on images attached below) in a convenient position under the chassis.

 

This 2017 MHFun discussion may help

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/lpg-filler-point.145366/

 

There are occasionally difficulties at LPG-selling service-stations where motorhomes are concerned, both in the UK and abroad. If you opt for a LPG filling-point that DOES NOT require a door having to be opened when refilling is carried out, such potential difficulties will be much reduced. If you opt for a LPG filling-point that DOES require a door having to be opened, you’ll have to accept a higher risk of encountering ‘refusal’ problems.

[Alanb]

I am rather alarmed by the OP's suggestion of an internal filling point. When an lpg filling nozzle is disconnected from the vehicle, there is always a puff of gas, as the lpg in the connection area vapourises. If the filling point is outside the vehicle this gas is quickly dispersed, but with a filling point inside a gas locker, which is inside a vehicle/

 

The lpg fill point on my vehicle is under the rear bumper, so I like Derek, suggest a sill mounted fill point.

 

LPG filling stations are reported as being understandably rather touchy about internal filling points. In my opinion, those MH owners who are unwilling for whatever reason to fit an external lpg fill point, do a great disservice to the rest of us.

 

Alan

[Conrad]

Have you looked at Safe Fill refillable bottles - they are designed to be taken out of the cupboard to refill, so you don't have issue of making a port-hole. I think they are lighter too, which could be useful in your 'van.

[weldted]

Twice once in France and once in Italy I opened the gas locker door to get the filling adapters for my external filling point for our underslung tank and the attendant would not turn the pump on. When I asked they both thought I had opened the door to fill an ordinary bottle not designed for that purpose. The Italian service station near Pisa attendant came out and pointed to marks on the floor and the canopy roof and said last year they had had a motorhome catch alight when filling an ordinary bottle the exact reason was not clear but since then he had been told to check if anyone opened a locker door. Admittedly in the last 14 years of having lpg tanks with external fill point these are the only times I have been checked. But it will probably happen on a freezing cold day at the only pump for miles so I would have an external point fitted. I now keep the adaptors in the van.

[Derek Uzzell]

Conrad - 2021-05-24 12:27 PM

 

Have you looked at Safe Fill refillable bottles - they are designed to be taken out of the cupboard to refill..

Safefill containers

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/

 

are not specifically designed to be taken out of the cupboard to refill.

 

When refilling this type of bottle (Safefill is not the only one) their design makes it necessary to disconnect the bottle from the gas system of a leisure-vehicle (motorhome or caravan) and the bottle can then be taken to a LPG pump if so wished. But a remote filling-point cannot be permanently fitted to this type of bottle, so wherever the ‘cupboard’ is in the motorhome the cupboard’s door will need to be opened to disconnect/reconnect a Safefill bottle.

 

Morrisons have agreed to allow Safefill bottles to be refilled at their supermarket filling-stations that have an LPG pump. I’ve no idea how they were persuaded to do this given what the refilling procedure involves.

 

(Plenty more on Safefill bottles here)

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=safefill&author=derek+uzzell&days=&Submit=Search

[Derek Uzzell]

This October 2018 guidance document (referred to on the Safefill website) may be of interest

 

https://publishing.energyinst.org/__data/assets/file/0005/547862/WEB-VERSION-Red-Guide-18.10.18.pdf

 

Where refilling the gas cylinders/tanks of leisure-vehicles is concerned, the relevant information begins towards the foot of Page 61 (Portable LPG cylinders - section 22) and continues to half way down Page 63 (Adapters for autogas filling - section 27).

 

The Red Guide document includes the statement "Additional information is available from the UKLPG” and what seems to be the latest relevant (also October 2018) UKLPG advice can be read here

 

https://www.gasit.co.uk/files/public/UIS026_Guidance_for_LPG_Refuelling_Facilities_-_Freestanding_User_Refillable_Cylinders_-_Published_Version_October_2018.pdf?1524425710

 

A composite gas bottle that could be connected to a remote filling-point (or filled directly without needing to be disconnected from a motorhome’s gas system) has been manufactured (GAS BANK’s “Multi”) but I’m not sure if it’s still being marketed.

[Conrad]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-05-24 2:59 PM

 

Conrad - 2021-05-24 12:27 PM

 

Have you looked at Safe Fill refillable bottles - they are designed to be taken out of the cupboard to refill..

Safefill containers

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/

 

are not specifically designed to be taken out of the cupboard to refill.

 

When refilling this type of bottle (Safefill is not the only one) their design makes it necessary to disconnect the bottle from the gas system of a leisure-vehicle (motorhome or caravan) and the bottle can then be taken to a LPG pump if so wished. But a remote filling-point cannot be permanently fitted to this type of bottle, so wherever the ‘cupboard’ is in the motorhome the cupboard’s door will need to be opened to disconnect/reconnect a Safefill bottle.

 

Morrisons have agreed to allow Safefill bottles to be refilled at their supermarket filling-stations that have an LPG pump. I’ve no idea how they were persuaded to do this given what the refilling procedure involves.

 

(Plenty more on Safefill bottles here)

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=safefill&author=derek+uzzell&days=&Submit=Search

My suggestion was based on a friend who bought one a couple of years ago, and said he took it out to refill it, even took it in his car to the station to fill it. Looks to me that it's filled by connection used to plumb into 'van, so has to be disconnected, you're then only one easy step away from taking it out as easily as you would a rental one.

Morrisons happy with it being taken out to refill.

[747]

It is getting more difficult to get a local refill for my Alugas bottle since the nearby Shell Garage removed the pump. The other day I checked out a Service Station about 3 miles away who still have Autogas pumps. The main problem being that if the place was busy, I would have great difficulty getting out again if there were any cars on the other pumps due to the length of my motorhome. So tonight I strapped the bottle into my car (it has 2 lashing points) and went for a refill. There were no other vehicles about, I lifted the tailgate, coupled up and refilled my bottle. I paid and left, nobody working there batted an eyelid, so I will do that from now on.

 

It would not be the end of the world if I had not been allowed to fill. There is an Energas Depot about 1 mile from home. An 11 kg exchange bottle is around £27 direct from the Depot. I already carry one as my spare and it would be no hardship to forget about refillables and just use exchange bottles. Our style of motorhoming has changed over the years, so we do very little wildcamping and do a higher number of shorter trips rather than a few long trips.

 

I should also say that the filling point on my van is in the gas compartment, actually on the bottle itself. I fabricated a bracket that bolts on to the lugs on the Alugas bottle. I have never been challenged when opening the gas locker door to refill over a period of about 12 years of using a refillable bottle.

[snail]

Hi, we have gaslow for 12 years or so, filled yesterday at a private autogas converter they had no problem filling cylinders which were designed with 80% cut off, only £15.07 for 22 litres which makes it about half price of exchange bottles, although the main reason for fitting is convenience in Europe long term touring several countries

 

Don't forget with our system don't know about others, that the fill line stays pressurised even after disconnecting the filler point has a NRV in it, so you may want to consider how long your filling pipe is and where it's routed? Ours is in the gas locker door so quite short and reccomend braided steel pipes/hoses

 

Incidently we do virtually all our cooking in van with fridge on and off grid all the time we get around 18 to 20 days from a 11kg gaslow bottle, this of course is without any room heating on

 

Happy days whichever route you take, off to the new forest today, off grid of course ??

[Derek Uzzell]

Conrad - 2021-05-24 6:19 PM

 

My suggestion was based on a friend who bought one a couple of years ago, and said he took it out to refill it, even took it in his car to the station to fill it. Looks to me that it's filled by connection used to plumb into 'van, so has to be disconnected, you're then only one easy step away from taking it out as easily as you would a rental one.

Morrisons happy with it being taken out to refill.

These two YouTube videos describe the Safefill bottle refilling procedure when the container had been removed from wherever it was normally kept

 

 

 

and this lengthy video shows refilling when the bottle is still in a motorhome’s gas locker.

 

 

The videos emphasise the ‘cost savings’ of refilling a Safefill container with autogas compared to using an exchange bottle (eg. a Calor canister) but do not mention the significant cost of the Safefill container, nor the potential negative effect of autogas on leisure-vehicle gas appliances, nor the possibility of refilling being refused at UK service-stations if the bottle is taken to the autogas pump, nor the high risk of refilling being refused at ‘foreign’ autogas-selling outlets if the bottle were taken to the pump.

 

It’s also noticeable that none of the videos show refilling at a service-station where the autogas pump is among the petrol/diesel pumps. It’s one thing to refill a bottle when the autogas pump is located well away from the petrol/diesel pumps and there’s no pressure to complete the task quickly. However - as 747 has touched on - the task becomes more challenging if the autogas pump is in with the rest of the fuel pumps and the service-station is busy.

[vindiboy]

Why are folks so worried about drilling a hole in their vans, so simple with the correct hole cutter and a bit of forethought , and the use of sealant ,warranty I hear you say BAH !

[lancepar]

It’s also noticeable that none of the videos show refilling at a service-station where the autogas pump is among the petrol/diesel pumps. It’s one thing to refill a bottle when the autogas pump is located well away from the petrol/diesel pumps and there’s no pressure to complete the task quickly. However - as 747 has touched on - the task becomes more challenging if the autogas pump is in with the rest of the fuel pumps and the service-station is busy.

 

Yes, we had a experience at a busy queuing S-S in France the LPG pump was the last pump on the island and after filling with diesel and moving up as far as we could the LPG hose nozzle would not reach the filler which I had fitted on the other side of the MoHo. This made me wish I had fitted my LPG filler on the same side of the Diesel filler. Doh.

Not a problem with remote LPG pumps of course.

 

Something to consider.

 

B-)

[Derek Uzzell]

vindiboy

 

This thread’s original posting includes the following

 

I’ve just bought a Sprinter Camper and am seriously considering a Gaslow/Gasit refillable system. I don’t really want to drill a hole in my van so would like to drill a hole in the gas locker which is accessible when you open the sliding door on the side of the van.

 

An arrangement where a panel-van conversion’s gas storage locker is accessed when the vehicle’s side sliding-door is open is not that uncommon and I remember Rapido using it on one of their PVC models with a cushion on the top of the locker acting as a minimalist seat.

 

This gas locker placement complicates installing a remote gas filling-point and - rather than cut a hole in a PVC’s metal bodywork - it would be more straightforward to locate the filling-point under the door sill (as shown in a photo above.)

 

You say that it is “...so simple with the correct hole cutter and a bit of forethought and the use of sealant...” to fit a gas filling-point in a motorhome’s bodywork, but that’s a bit like me saying to someone about to learn to ride a motorcycle that counter steering the bike is simple to do. And, of course, although it should be easy enogh to cut a hole in a coachbuilt motorhome’s sandwich-panel bodywork, or plastic or alloy skirt, cutting a hole is steel sheet will be more challenging.

 

As will be very evident from forums, motorhome owners’ DIY abilities vary dramatically and while installing a gas filling-point will be considered child’s play for some, it would be a daunting task for many others.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-05-25 1:52 PM..........................As will be very evident from forums, motorhome owners’ DIY abilities vary dramatically and while installing a gas filling-point will be considered child’s play for some, it would be a daunting task for many others.

Drilling holes, with the correct tools, of course, is easy. However, knowing exactly where the hole will emerge on the other side, and what is concealed within the thickness of whatever the drill will pass through, is another matter altogether. Cutting through structural members and or electric wiring, for example, is unlikely to become apparent until after the hole cutting is completed, when it will be too late to anything rectify the damage!

[A900ss]

Thanks all for your informative replies.

 

I’m going to go with gaslow/gasit refillable bottles with an external fill point under the sliding door.

 

I want to travel Europe a fair bit and I’m not convinced about the safefill bottles and being able to get them filled.

 

Thanks again.

[vindiboy]

Brian Kirby - 2021-05-25 5:32 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2021-05-25 1:52 PM..........................As will be very evident from forums, motorhome owners’ DIY abilities vary dramatically and while installing a gas filling-point will be considered child’s play for some, it would be a daunting task for many others.

Drilling holes, with the correct tools, of course, is easy. However, knowing exactly where the hole will emerge on the other side, and what is concealed within the thickness of whatever the drill will pass through, is another matter altogether. Cutting through structural members and or electric wiring, for example, is unlikely to become apparent until after the hole cutting is completed, when it will be too late to anything rectify the damage!

Why are folks so worried about drilling a hole in their vans, so simple with the correct hole cutter and a bit of forethought , and the use of sealant ,warranty I hear you say BAH ! You are right of course BUT that is where the Forethought comes in ?

[david lloyd]

A900ss - 2021-05-27 5:26 PM

 

Thanks all for your informative replies.

 

I’m going to go with gaslow/gasit refillable bottles with an external fill point under the sliding door.

 

I want to travel Europe a fair bit and I’m not convinced about the safefill bottles and being able to get them filled.

 

Thanks again.

That’s the most sensible and practical solution - you shouldn’t encounter any problems.

 

David

[Ocsid]

I read "TOTAL" France, from an article published back on the 26th May, have instructed forecourt staff not to allow the use of their LPG pumps for non propulsion use.

 

https://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/courrier/temoignages-les-camping-cars-interdits-de-plein-de-gpl-chez-total/198617

 

If like me you struggle to get more than the gist you could need Google translate;

 

https://support.google.com/translate/answer/2534559?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&hl=en&oco=0

[Derek Uzzell]

Years ago - following a serious fire at a French service-station that (if I remember correctly) involved a motorhome usng an autogas (GPL in France) pump to refill the vehicle’s gas container (that presumably held gas for ‘domestic’ appliances) - there was a move to ban use of GPL except as a vehicle propulsion fuel. Nothing happened banning-wise at the time, but now the issue seems to have been revisited.

 

France has strict rules where the installation of leisure-vehicle-related user-refillable LPG containers is concerned. These rules are much stricter than the UK’s (where anything pretty much goes) and essentially demand that a user-refillable bottle (eg. a Gaslow canister) be treated as if it were a fixed tank. But those installation regulations apply only to French-registered vehicles.

 

I notice that this has also been discussed on the CaravanTalk forum

 

https://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/152535-total-in-france-ban-lpg-filling-for-non-propulsion-use/