Guest Peter James Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 X2/50 van (Current Ducato/Boxer/Relay) Not rainwater leaking through the scuttle onto the engine this time, but leaking through the top of the windscreen, on to the steering wheel, shorting out the horn button, and setting off the horn 8-) At first we couldn't work out what the noise was, and were running all over the house trying to find it. We thought it might be a circular saw going next door, neighbor thought it was coming from under her sink and got her husband laid on his back under the sink looking for it (lol) The guy who lives opposite could hear it more clearly because the van was facing that way, and came across to tell me. I got in the van to disconnect the battery, but before I could do so the horn stopped, it had burned itself out. Got another horn from the local shop £7.99, sealed the top of the windscreen with white bathroom silicone (I know you are supposed to use special stuff that doesn't eat into the rubber but I haven't got any) and am hoping for the best. I read on a forum the professionals say the only way to seal a windscreen is to take it out and fit a new seal, and it will probably crack as you prise it away from its bond, so its really a new windscreen job 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Bad news. It seems that things didn't improve when Fiat moved from the X230 to X240, and then to the present X250. I guess many of us know that on the earlier models, the rain leaking into the engine compartment from each end of the under-windscreen scuttle, was a well-known issue. Apparently, the Dealers response would be "Yes, they do that sir". I was aware of this when I bought the 2001 Ducato (X230) that we now have, last summer. There was clear evidence of water ingress over the years at each end of the scuttle, particularly on the engine-battery side. It appears that at least one previous engine battery has got soaked and leaked over time. My solution, after trying silicone without long-term success; was a tupperware container, cut down to sit on top of the battery as a water catcher, with a rubber tube running down from it to take that water down past the engine to the ground. Works a treat. Doesn't look too sexy, and doesn't of course actually cure the problem of water ingress, but it works in terms of guiding all that water away from any components. Not sure why, after so many decades and so many Ducato models, Fiat still can't seem to make them watertight.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Friend had a similier problem with a Ford Focus, took it to a windscreen replacement firm who resealed the windscreen.with the correct stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 BGD - 2013-03-20 9:08 AM .... trying silicone without long-term success............ Probably same here. But the windscreen sits down in a groove, so the silicone completely covers the original seal, contacting metal on one side and glass on the other. So I am hoping it works :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 colin - 2013-03-20 9:22 AM Friend had a similier problem with a Ford Focus, took it to a windscreen replacement firm who resealed the windscreen.with the correct stuff I think it would be easier with a Ford Focus because you can get one of those little tubes of special stuff with a fine nozzle, and inject it under the rubber. I can't see how to get to the rubber seal on the X250 windscreen to do that. (see pic above) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 There isn't one, the screens are bonded in. Yours has partially de-bonded, hence the leak. It should be possible to remove and re-bond, although there is a risk of breakage. Windscreen replacement firms can get special shaped cutters to cut through the sealant without damage. They then remove as much of the old sealant as is surplus/loose, re-prime the surround and the screen, apply new sealant and, re re-bond the screen back in place. Would probably take around an hour, plus curing time for the new sealant, so shouldn't cost a King's ransom. Worth asking, IMO. It is also probably worth getting this done, as windscreens are now an integral part of the vehicle structure, and you don't know how much has come loose. I'd talk to the local firms to see who's up for doing it. I'd also have a word with your insurer to see how they view the cost of repairing a de-bonding screen that isn't actually broken in view of its structural contribution. You never know. One thing is fairly certain though, it would originally have been completely bonded as, presumably, it didn't leak before. Now it has partially de-bonded, it is clear the bond is faulty, implying that it may be liable to continue de-bonding. That leak is liable, IMO, to reoccur. Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-03-20 12:29 PM There isn't one, the screens are bonded in. Yours has partially de-bonded, hence the leak. It should be possible to remove and re-bond, although there is a risk of breakage. Windscreen replacement firms can get special shaped cutters to cut through the sealant without damage. They then remove as much of the old sealant as is surplus/loose, re-prime the surround and the screen, apply new sealant and, re re-bond the screen back in place. Would probably take around an hour, plus curing time for the new sealant, so shouldn't cost a King's ransom. Worth asking, IMO. It is also probably worth getting this done, as windscreens are now an integral part of the vehicle structure, and you don't know how much has come loose. I'd talk to the local firms to see who's up for doing it. I'd also have a word with your insurer to see how they view the cost of repairing a de-bonding screen that isn't actually broken in view of its structural contribution. You never know. One thing is fairly certain though, it would originally have been completely bonded as, presumably, it didn't leak before. Now it has partially de-bonded, it is clear the bond is faulty, implying that it may be liable to continue de-bonding. That leak is liable, IMO, to reoccur. Sorry! Hmmm I predict sucking of teeth when they see I have pumped it full of Bathroom Silicone :$ PS: Youre right BTW - it hasn't always leaked. The van was manufactured in 2008 and started leaking through the top of windscreen a few weeks ago - would have botched it sooner if the weather had been drier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 How much excess paid on windscreen replacement? May be time for an accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Peter James - 2013-03-20 1:30 PM Brian Kirby - 2013-03-20 12:29 PM There isn't one, the screens are bonded in. Yours has partially de-bonded, hence the leak. It should be possible to remove and re-bond, although there is a risk of breakage. Windscreen replacement firms can get special shaped cutters to cut through the sealant without damage. They then remove as much of the old sealant as is surplus/loose, re-prime the surround and the screen, apply new sealant and, re re-bond the screen back in place. Would probably take around an hour, plus curing time for the new sealant, so shouldn't cost a King's ransom. Worth asking, IMO. It is also probably worth getting this done, as windscreens are now an integral part of the vehicle structure, and you don't know how much has come loose. I'd talk to the local firms to see who's up for doing it. I'd also have a word with your insurer to see how they view the cost of repairing a de-bonding screen that isn't actually broken in view of its structural contribution. You never know. One thing is fairly certain though, it would originally have been completely bonded as, presumably, it didn't leak before. Now it has partially de-bonded, it is clear the bond is faulty, implying that it may be liable to continue de-bonding. That leak is liable, IMO, to reoccur. Sorry! Hmmm I predict sucking of teeth when they see I have pumped it full of Bathroom Silicone :$ PS: Youre right BTW - it hasn't always leaked. The van was manufactured in 2008 and started leaking through the top of windscreen a few weeks ago - would have botched it sooner if the weather had been drier. I echo Brian's advice. Besides the possibility of the underlying problem worsening, your bathroom-sealant ploy is (and, perhaps more importantly, looks like) a bodge that will devalue the vehicle should you wish to sell it. Windscreen de-bonding will be rare, but it's certainly not unknown. I bought a new Toyota Corolla in the 1990s and a corner of its windscreen lifted (visibly) clear of the metal bodywork almost immediately after the purchase. The windscreen was replaced but, because Toyota used trim pieces around the screen, despite two repair attempts there were always cosmetic issues. That shouldn't be a problem with your motorhome as its screen has no surrounding trim. Bathroom-type silicone sealant hasn't got great adherence properties and, if you grab hold of the strip of sealant you've added and pull it, the complete strip will quite likely detach easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I would heed Brian's advice as he says a bonded screens form integral part of the vehicle structure & effects the rigidity of the vehicle . Time for a big stone to hit it me thinks (might be hammer shaped). :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Thanks for all the replies, Much Appreciated. Its very difficult to photograph as its down in the gap between the glass and the bodywork, maybe those with X2/50 motorhomes can see it on theirs. But there is a conventional old fashioned looking 'rubber' seal there - just like a door seal. Is it covering the bond between the bodywork and the glass as another line of defence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Just had a look at mine I think what are thinking is a seal is in fact the bonding adhesive if you look you will see the screen sits on top of it. Just a very neat factory finish on the bonding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-21 12:04 PM Just had a look at mine I think what are thinking is a seal is in fact the bonding adhesive if you look you will see the screen sits on top of it. Just a very neat factory finish on the bonding. Sorry, I mean the bit that touches the bodywork, not the glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It comes out from behind the glass to the edge of the recess on mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-21 12:40 PM It comes out from behind the glass to the edge of the recess on mine. Thats the bit I mean. Like a rubber door seal, but only against the bodywork. I can't see what is between that and the glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 That's it, I'm fairly certain it's just the adhesive, the glass is bedded onto it then it's smoothed down after giving the appearance of a rubber seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-21 1:39 PM That's it, I'm fairly certain it's just the adhesive, the glass is bedded onto it then it's smoothed down after giving the appearance of a rubber seal. Its not adhesive on mine as its not stuck to the metal. Its just a thin tapered edge against it - like a door seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Peter James - 2013-03-21 1:42 PM lennyhb - 2013-03-21 1:39 PM That's it, I'm fairly certain it's just the adhesive, the glass is bedded onto it then it's smoothed down after giving the appearance of a rubber seal. Its not adhesive on mine as its not stuck to the metal. Its just a thin tapered edge against it - like a door seal. Try asking Autoglass, or a Fiat commercial dealer. They should know its function - but I'd be very surprised if it has any structural purpose. It may just be to smooth over the inevitably ragged edge of the sealant to prevent water sitting in pockets and freezing, or some such. It's bound to have some function. On a commercial vehicle it won't be there for purely aesthetic reasons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Peter James - 2013-03-21 1:42 PM lennyhb - 2013-03-21 1:39 PM That's it, I'm fairly certain it's just the adhesive, the glass is bedded onto it then it's smoothed down after giving the appearance of a rubber seal. Its not adhesive on mine as its not stuck to the metal. Its just a thin tapered edge against it - like a door seal. Mine is solid just had another look. Don't know if they have changed my van came of Fiat production line in April 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Brian Kirby - 2013-03-21 2:32 PM Peter James - 2013-03-21 1:42 PM lennyhb - 2013-03-21 1:39 PM That's it, I'm fairly certain it's just the adhesive, the glass is bedded onto it then it's smoothed down after giving the appearance of a rubber seal. Its not adhesive on mine as its not stuck to the metal. Its just a thin tapered edge against it - like a door seal. Try asking Autoglass, or a Fiat commercial dealer. They should know its function - but I'd be very surprised if it has any structural purpose. It may just be to smooth over the inevitably ragged edge of the sealant to prevent water sitting in pockets and freezing, or some such. It's bound to have some function. On a commercial vehicle it won't be there for purely aesthetic reasons! The groove gets full of muck. I guess it would even more so without that rubber. Looking at it more closely it might be watertight in places, but not where the panels join as it runs across a groove. So perhaps the rubber is just a cover, rather than a seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-21 2:41 PM Mine is solid just had another look. Don't know if they have changed my van came of Fiat production line in April 2008. Mine (panel van) was registered July 09 but has parts date stamped March 08 so I guess its about the same age. May be solid bond underneath but has this 'rubber' cover that looks like a door seal, and you can lift easily with a knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It would be unusual to have any form of additional 'seal' for this type of windscreen on a mass-production vehicle, not least because it would unnecessarily complicate a task that's designed to be simple and quick to carry out at the vehicle manufacturing stage. These links show examples of bonded windscrrens being replaced: http://www.clearviewwindscreens.org/bonded%20glass.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IiqqJMG5ZM In the last case a rubber strip is fitted around the glass, but that's just for cosmetic reasons. These may also be of interest (and educational regarding pricing!) http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-120677-days0-orderasc-0.html http://www.smilewindscreens.co.uk/fiat/ducato-windscreen/year-of-manufacture-2006-on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Interesting links, Thank You Derek. But leaves me no wiser as to what this 'rubber' seal/cover is. Have had plenty of rain to test the bathroom silicone and it works - for the moment :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 x2/50, like many other, if not all vehicles, has a rubber 'seal' which forms the outer 'edge' and gives a neat finnish, so no peter you arn't seeing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 yep, as i thought, a stroll down perranporth high street and every car and van has a 'seal', some on edge of glass some like x2/50 under glass, at a guess it is used to control the 'stand off' of glass and give correct thickness of bonding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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