Stalling Transits

[Brian Kirby]

Has anyone with a Transit based van (Duratorq engined versions only, I think), noticed the Interchange item entitled "Tractability Problems" on p217 of the latest (Jan '08) MMM?

If so, do you recognise the symptoms quoted by Tony Hickling and discussed by George Collings?

These are, in brief, a reluctance to pull away smoothly at low revs, with a strong tendency to stall, coupled with a rather sharp clutch.  Tony's presumably had an extreme version of this, resulting in parts being replaced.

However, ours has similar tendencies, and I note comments by testers of Transit based vans on a sharp clutch, or the need for plenty of revs to pull away without stalling.  In the case of ours, if the revs drop below a critical level, the engine doesn't so much stall, as just switch off.  Ford say they are unaware of any problem with stalling.  However, I do just wonder if that is because no one is looking/listening.  How's yours?

[handyman]

is the duratorq engine in the old style transit (03-06), and the new style (56-present)???????

 

(dates are approx)

[Guest machra]

I have not read the MMM article but I have same problem. I stalled it three times driving it off the forecourt. Wife thought I was having a senile moment or a fit!!! I think last time I stalled anything was in 1979 while I was learning to drive. As you say it is not a normal case of van revs are low – dip clutch a little increase revs and drive away. More like van running – van stalled. Clutch is also very on/off ish and not very progressive. I will do a bit of digging on the internet. There is a Transit Forum somewhere out in cyberspace.

 

Only my thoughts but is it something to do with the new generation of high performance, high revving, lightweight diesel engines. I presume they have reduced the weight of the flywheel to get the thing to rev faster and save weight/costs thus there is now less inertia to keep the engine going. I say this because a colleague of mine has just bought a new SAAB and it needs to be revved like a petrol engine or it stalls.

 

[Guest Sally Pepper]

Hi Brian,

 

I've got the 140 PS Duratorq 2.0 litre in my S-Max and it is indeed prone to stalling at low revs - particularly when cold.

 

I think it's down to the engine management system, which appears to extract a lot more torque than you'd expect from an engine of this size. I'm no engineer, but I believe the management unit stretches the normal performance parameters of the engine to deliver an impressive balance of performance and economy.

 

The lumpiness is a bit irritating and makes for less than smooth progress first thing in the morning, but I think it's a price worth paying for a quick engine which returns 44.5mpg.

 

Mark

[marcob]

Hi Brian

 

I have a 03 reg. with 2.4 engine. It does tend to stall if I have not driven it for a while, and I forget to give it more revs than my car needs, but OK when I get used to it again. The clutch is smooth enough though.

 

Regards and best wishes to all.

[Mike88]

One reason for my stalling Transit is that the incorrect viscosity of engine oil was used by my garage. The garage used 15/40 semi synthetic whereas the correct oil is 5/30.

 

I found out about this problem on the internet somewhere possibly the Ford Transit forum at www.fordtransit.org/forum

[Brian Kirby]

For the record, the Transit is a LHD, 2007, 2.2 litre, 130PS, FWD, medium wheelbase, version, and has covered 4000 miles approx.  Yes, it is still a little tight and, no, the problem is not cold start related: it is ever present. 

This is the new, jointly developed, Ford/PSA engine, and I'm intrigued to know if this characteristic is shared with the 2.2 litre Boxer/Jumper variants.  Anyone got a 2007 Peugeot Boxer based 2.2 Litre van?

One thing I didn't mention, is that it is extremely difficult to control engine revs on drive away.  If you don't stall it first, by loading it too early, the revs just soar up and you sound like Aunty Nellie trying to park (sorry Aunty Nellie!).  This makes it very prone to wheel spin as an alternative to stalling!  Great fun for all around!!

I have driven small diesels since we got a Peugeot 205, and common rail diesels since we had a Citroen Xsara, and I've never experienced a common rail diesel (or any other diesel) that was so difficult to control.

The nearest I can get to a description is a really sticky throttle cable on a carburettor fed petrol engine.  You know, when you sqeeze a bit and nothing happens, then a bit more and still nothing happens, and so on until the cable gives in and opens the throttle half way and you disappear in a cloud of smoke!  Thing is, there is no throttle cable on this Tranny, the potentiometer (or whatever it is called) is directly on the end of the accellerator pedal, so that all that emerges are wires.  Thanks for the responses so far.  More later!

[panagah]

Brian I would of thought in this day and age what you are describing is actually a mapping problem and not mechanical, (ie hardware for the less teccie minded) . As you rightly say there is no thottle control by cable on this so you are talking about sender units and such. I am sure that if this is a problem recognised by ford themselves it would not be long before a slight programme mod is available, perhaps at a furture service point. Being the teccie guy I am, if you took it to a ford dealer with this problem and explained it to them, I am sure they would plug in the ECU look at the stored data and pinpoint it straight away. Faults of this kind are logged within the ECU these days.

 

An example on my Mitubishi car was that it even recognised the difference between mine and my wifes driving styles. My wife held the clutch for longer than I did and often draged it by resting her foot on it (women drivers OUCH) whils in motion. Everytime I got in the car after her to drive it the ECU light insisted there was a fault. I took it Mitsubishi, upcome the fault code, a little adjustment of the ECU and bingo fault solved,

 

The days of adjusting timing with a strobe light and fuel mixtures on carbs are sadly IMO well behind us.

[Brian Kirby]

That was my feeling as well, Paul, so I wrote to Ford's Tcchnical Information Centre, explained what was happening, and asked if: a) it was a recognised problem and b) there was a fix, or a planned fix.

Their reply was that this characteristic is typical of common rail diesels (not in my experience, it ain't), but adding that they were unaware of any special problem with stalling and, consequently, there was no fix either extant or planned.

Now, either I have a Transit that is unusual in this respect, in which case few folk will recognise what I'm on about, or our Transit is typical, in which case lots of people will know what I'm on about and will hopefully respond.

Then, I'm hoping they will all write to the Ford Technical Centre, reporting their Transit's over-eagerness to stall, but also write to MMM reporting this (I have also done this but doubt it will appear till Easter, if ever).  This way, I'm hoping that Ford get the message that if they want to go on selling lots of Transit bases, they need to fix the problem before the publicity puts people off buying them.

[Derek Uzzell]

Year 2000-onwards Transits have gained a reputation for being tricky when it comes to moving off from rest.

 

With RWD Mk 6s this seems to be down to the inherent characteristics of the engine management system. On FWD Mk 6 chassis (as used on my Hobby), it seems to be due to a combination of the ECU giving you absolutely no 2nd chance if you let the revs drop below a certain point and an over-high bottom gear. The latter feature is well recognised, as is its consequential effect - premature and expensive clutch replacements. FWD Mk 6s cry out for a 6-speed gearbox.

 

According to motorhome test reports, Mk 7 FWD Transits (like Brian's base-vehicle) have inherited the Start-Line Syndrome from their predecessors and there's no doubt in my mind that the atrocious, minimal-movement accelerator-pedal fitted to the Mk 7 contributes.

 

The forum Mike88 mentioned earlier will be the best place to look for information and advice.

[Peter Pan]

Brian

 

I have just read the Jan08 MMM article to which you referred.

I have driven several types of diesel car over the years and I regularly drove Transit vans, both Turbo & naturally aspirated during the period 1999/2000/2001 and I have never experienced the clutch problems I now experience with my 07 Transit.

To be honest I initially thought I would just have to adjust my driving style but in view of other peoples comments, I am now concerned that I may be shortening the life of the clutch.

I will send an email to MMM and also Ford Tech Dept.

 

Peter

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Peter

Just two things. 

1 What makes you blame the clutch?

2 If you can stand it, may I suggest you write to Ford rather than e-mailing them.  I think they give letters a bit more thought and also take a bit more note of what has been said.  I wasn't happy with the content of the reply I got on this issue, but their letter gave very comprehensive replies to all the items I had raised, so at least someone had read it and thought about it!

The address is:

Ford Technical Information Centre

PO Box 300

Walsall  WS5 4QH.

Don't phone them though - its costs 80p per minute!  How's that for customer care?

[billbaillie]

I've got a MK6 2.4 TDCI duratorq engine (2006 year) and have not experienced any problems as described here.

Mine is as smooth as anything when pulling away either fully loaded or empty. I use it every day as it is our only vehicle and it drives like a little car.

If pulling away on a slight downhill I can do it in second gear easy and smoothly.

Having read this post last night, I paid particular attention to this when out and about today. Also, the traffic around here today was terrible, so spent a lot of time stopping and starting with no issues whatsoever.

Sorry I can't be of any more assistance.

Regards

[Mel B]

Mk 6 (2006) 2.4 RWD:

 

Yup, we have it as well! We tried other Transits of the same ilk before the one we got and they were the same, once you get used to it, it's okay but it can be a bit of a b*gger as you can bet you'll stall it when trying to pull away into traffic and you end up looking like a right lemon. :$

[Brian Kirby]

Mel and Bill

You haven't said what engines you each have.  2.4 Duratorqs yes, but what power outputs?  If the outputs are the same, then something else must explain the difference, which may get us somewhere.  Van weights, possibly?  Mel's is quite heavy.

Mel, when yours stalls, does it stall normally, or does the engine seem just to cut out, almost as though it had been switched off?

Bill, can you get fine control over the engine revs, or is the accelerator difficult to depress in small increments?  All the other common rail diesels I've driven have been/are very tractable and easy to control: you can build the revs almost 50 at a time, with complete control.  With the pedal on my Transit, it seems to go from tickover at around 750RPM straight up to around 1,500RPM, with almost no intermediate speeds available.  The clutch has a short take up, but it isn't really sharp: it's just firm.  I'm sure there is a mismatch between the pedal unit and the EMU, it is as though the EMU gets too much signal too quickly.  It's a bit like having a neurotic race horse between the shafts of a cart!

I have read a suggestion that a particular Bosch EMU is responsible for pull away stalls on some Ford common rail diesels.  However, I do not know if this unit is fitted to Transits, nor do I have any further details of the unit to identify it.  Has anyone come across that?

[MandyAndy]

Hi Brian, We too have a Transit and yes it stalls. thats about as technical as I get 8o| . Andy drives almost all the time but he says even from the day we got it that first gear was pointless as you had to be in 2nd instantly or it would stall.

 

We got it in March , it is a long wheel base , rear wheel drive and pay load is 3850, Roller team 600G if any of that helps. Done 10000 miles and it still stalls , did so twice the other day once going over a speed bump slowly (had christmas cake to look after), and other was moving away from junction, it does tickle me though as he gets very embarrassed about it as he says he hasn't stalled since his driving lessons.

 

Will watch this thread with interest.

 

Mandy

[ollybear]

I own a Dethleffs Globevan with a MK7 2.2l, 130PS engine. After 6 months I get on with it alright now, but in the beginning it was like learning to drive again. I once got stuck on a steep climb on a campsite, the engine stalled in second gear before I had a chance to change into first. After starting the engine it was impossible to move off, the wheels were just spinning (concrete surface). I had to roll backwards to the beginning of the climb and start again with much higher speed.

Over here in Germany the stalling is mentioned in every roadtest of Transit-based motorhomes, so Ford must know about it.

 

 

Rainer

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Searching the Mk 6/Mk 7 Transit section of www.fordtransit.org/forum using keyword "stalling" retrieves a number of motorhome-related entries (at least one from a regular contributor to this forum). If you are faint-hearted, or have the impression that the Ford Transit is beyond reproach fault-wise, then it might be prudent to avoid the fordtransit.org forum. On the other hand, there is a lot of valuable information there to get one's teeth into.

 

A pal of mine with an owned-from-new Auto-Sleepers Ravenna (2004 model, RWD, 2.4 litre 125PS motor) told me early on about its tendency to stall and, since my own Hobby (2005 model, FWD, 2.0 litre 125PS motor) exhibits similar characteristics, it's being an ongoing conversational subject. I'm sure he won't mind if I quote a few of his comments:

 

"Stalling. I made a few more enquiries at the garage that I used to work at about stalling Transit diesels. I was told that there is apparently an issue with the ECU cutting fuel supply if you don’t give it enough welly. This is a fine balance, due to emission control. One of the mechanics said that unless you can hear the traditional Ford ‘bark’, there is a likelihood that you will stall it. All a question of balance of clutch/revs related to load he said, not directly related to torque values, and quite difficult to achieve. This has made me think that this is the more likely scenario, as on level ground in slow traffic I can drop the clutch and it will take off quite happily. He did add that I wouldn’t be the first to stall one, which has made me feel somewhat happier about it. He said that many ‘renters’ complain that they are very easy to stall, different from the Renault and Fiat similar sized vans. High first gears, particularly on the FWD versions don’t help this. The other problem is that in traffic it is difficult to hear the ‘bark’ point, so you still end up stalling it anyway."

 

"I also discovered in the TIS document (this is the Transit Servicing DVD) the mention of the fuel cutting off when the revs drop below 550, if my memory serves me right. This is quite important in the stalling debate as if you allow the revs to drop too much, this accounts for the very abrupt engine stall, and the inability to ‘pick it up’ again as you can with almost all other diesels. Why this is there seems open to debate and is reckoned to be a sop to the pollution debate. This is apparently a well known fact with white van man. This is completely opposite to what the diesel engine is supposed to be all about, low revs and loads of torque."

 

"A friend’s son has been apprenticed to Ford and I have been asking him about the stalling thing. He says that it has been recognised that the first gear of the later Transit is too high and they have had quite a lot of complaints. This involves quite a bit of clutch slip, which can lead to the early demise of the clutch, particularly if they are used in a city environment. They have also had moans from drivers that live in hilly areas, for obvious reasons. There have also been complaints on a Transit Forum about this problem. I am still stalling mine on the odd occasion by the way!"

 

It would be interesting to know what the gear ratios are for coachbuilt motorhomes based on the latest Transit Mk 7 platform-cab chassis. According to my Mk 6-based Hobby's Certificate of Conformity its ratios are:

 

1 = 3.80

2 = 2.14

3 = 1.35

4 = 0.92

5 = 0.67

Final drive = 4.54

 

If Transit Mk 7-based motorhomes like Brian's and Peter's have similar gearing that results in a high 1st gear, and similar ECU characteristics involving a 'no way back' cut-off should engine-revs be allowed to drop just an iota below tick-over speed, then they are likely to be as potentially stall-prone as my own vehicle. Add the Mk 7's accelerator-pedal that's as progressive as a gallows' trap-door and moving the motorhome from rest reliably (without wheel-spin or clutch smoke) will be even more challenging.

[Clive]

Perhaps its more basic?. The manufacturers tendancy towards ever and ever lighter flywheels to give a more petrol engine type of drive and better initial acceleration. Ford are not alone, Mercedes are also going in the same direction. Once upon a time you could just dump the clutch in first gear at tick over in most diesels and they would pull away. Modern diesels require a bit of welly first!

C.

 

[billbaillie]

Brian

Mine is a 115PS. It's a Duetto MWB.

I can get fine control over the engine revs. As I say, can't fault mine. I'm I just lucky or is this problem restrivted to certain variants??

Have you tried searching the Ford Transit forum for info.  The guys on that forum can usually answer anything.
http://fordtransit.org/forum/index.php

BTW, mine is a RWD

Regards

[Basil]

Brian Kirby - 2007-12-21 6:20 PM

Don't phone them though - its costs 80p per minute!  How's that for customer care?

 

What phone number is that Brian, I may have an alternative!

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

Basil - 2007-12-22 1:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2007-12-21 6:20 PM Don't phone them though - its costs 80p per minute!  How's that for customer care?

What phone number is that Brian, I may have an alternative! Bas

Basil, it's 0906 5533447, but I was wrong, the cost/min stated on their - not very helpful - letters is now £1 per minute!

I also wrote, a couple of weeks back, on advice from the "Customer Relationship Centre", to them, asking if fitting Firestone Drive-Rite air springs at the rear would invaildate the warranty.  They phoned a few days later saying they had passed the letter to the Technical Information Centre (which was good), whose reply (received today) says, in terms, we don't know, but we suggest you contact the Ford Customer Relationship Centre (yes, that's right, the one I had originally written to and who had referred the query to the Tech Centre).  Yes Minister - or yes Henry?!  No wonder these vehicles are expensive.

What makes people so wedded to Ford?  I had far better from Fiat.

[Basil]

Hi Brian,

 

Don't know that number.

I have Customer Assistance Centre number at Brentwood head office which is a LoCall number 0845 8411111. The Ford Reaserch and Engineering Centre at Dunton is 01268 403000, not sure that they will be of any use to you in this case though if you can get through to someone at the head office number that is the place to create waves about 'rip off' phone numbers and poor service. If you get the right person they seem to be able to move heaven and earth from there.

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Basil, that's much more encouraging.

[Guest Tracker]

I don't have a Transit but, like Derek, my first thought was to compare overall gearing between afflicted vans and non afflicted vans, as it sounds like over gearing on an already heavy conversion is not helping the cause.

 

Not that there is a lot you can do about gearing without huge expense but at least you might know what it could or could not be on the road to elimination of the main suspects?

 

The ever growing trend towards higher gearing in the name of economy and meeting arbitrary grams per km targets is maybe the root cause?