Stalling Transits

[Brian Kirby]

ollybear - 2007-12-22 9:16 AM I own a Dethleffs Globevan with a MK7 2.2l, 130PS engine. After 6 months I get on with it alright now, but in the beginning it was like learning to drive again. I once got stuck on a steep climb on a campsite, the engine stalled in second gear before I had a chance to change into first. After starting the engine it was impossible to move off, the wheels were just spinning (concrete surface). I had to roll backwards to the beginning of the climb and start again with much higher speed. Over here in Germany the stalling is mentioned in every roadtest of Transit-based motorhomes, so Ford must know about it. Rainer

Manfred

Can you give any quotes of the German Transit tests?  I think the combination of sharp clutch and lack of bottom end pull result in an unacceptable driving experience, and I want to take this up further with Ford after Christmas.  There is a safety issue to this as well.  I have seen one post from a motorhomer whose van stalled in the middle of a busy junction, leaving him in the path of oncoming traffic!  There, but for the grace of God, go we all!

Ford have sunk a lot of money into promoting the Transit as a motorhome base vehicle and, this matter apart, it is a very pleasant drive.  I think they will be mad to ignore the adverse comments from motorhomers: they'll just lose what advantage they've gained.

Motorhomes are heavy, which exacerbates the problem, and are quite often driven onto softish, wet, campsites.  Extricating a current FWD Transit from wet grass won't be much fun, and I think mine would actually be undriveable on ice!  Must be real fun for the winter sports enthusiasts, who take them into the Alps!  Any feedback on this in the German motorhome magazines yet?

For everyone else, please do write to the Ford Technical Centre at the address above, and copy to the manufacturer of your motorhome.  If you let me know you've done so, I can at least refute Ford's claim not to know anything about the problem.  By including the motorhome manufacturer, with any luck they will talk to Ford about the problem.  If you go to any shows, ask the sales reps about the stalling Transit problem you've been hearing about.  Tell them it's all over the internet forums!  They buy the chassis: the prospect of marketing a vehicle with a dud reputation may persuade them to tackle Ford about it, and so get Ford to sit up and listen.

Whatever may be the technical reason for this, it needs to be resolved, and not just passed off as the consequence of seeking greater fuel efficiency.  If others can produce vehicles that pull away smoothly, why not Ford?  I note they have just managed to introduce a new, 140PS version, of the 2.2litre engine.  If they can do that, they can also fix the stalling.  We just have to make them aware that it is in their interest to do so.

Oh, and please don't take the "it won't make any difference line".  It certainly won't if you don't write, but it may if you do.  Only a chance I agree, but if there are no letters, what then is the chance?

Thanks again folks.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2007-12-22 9:59 AM .......... According to my Mk 6-based Hobby's Certificate of Conformity its ratios are: 1 = 3.80 2 = 2.14 3 = 1.35 4 = 0.92 5 = 0.67 Final drive = 4.54 If Transit Mk 7-based motorhomes like Brian's and Peter's have similar gearing that results in a high 1st gear, and similar ECU characteristics involving a 'no way back' cut-off should engine-revs be allowed to drop just an iota below tick-over speed, then they are likely to be as potentially stall-prone as my own vehicle. Add the Mk 7's accelerator-pedal that's as progressive as a gallows' trap-door and moving the motorhome from rest reliably (without wheel-spin or clutch smoke) will be even more challenging.

Spot on Derek!  Just fished out the CoC.  Exact same ratios in gearbox and final drive.

[Mel B]

Brian, ours is a 2.4 Duratorq, 135bhp version. It's a big un, 7.14m long but not the heaviest, being on the 3500 chasis.

 

I must add that the stalling has happened whether it's loaded or not. We also tried a Ravenna before we bought the Rimor and that was even worse!

 

I stalled it a few times whilst driving back from France in June but part of that was due to my suffering from severe sunburn on the legs which made it difficult to drive anyway.

 

Since we've got used to the van, though, we've not had any problems so we've just put it down to 'user learning', I think it is simply that the clutch control on the Ford is very different to that on the Fiat which we had owned previously.

 

Some cars are attrocious, some are great, I think some of it is just a matter of getting used to whatever you are currently driving.

[colin]

A little something to consider if all else fails, wheels!

For last 28years I have been having opposite problem, this comes from fitting ever larger Ford engines into small light cars, almost impossible to stall and slightess bit of throttle 'lights up' the rear tyres, my usual solution is to fit larger dia wheel/tyre, going up an inch normaly solves problem, so maybe going down an inch will solve this, although it may be at expence of mpg depending on how often you cruise in top gear.

Also do you all have same size wheel/tyre, are the alloys larger and are gear ratios changed to suit?

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Colin.  They wheels/tyres are bog standard Ford items, no alloys.  The rear overhang is fairly close to the acceptable max, so the front is lightly loaded when in touring trim.  In fact, more so than when the van is empty!  This causes some problems with wheelspin even on quite good surfaces, especially when pulling away up hills.  On wet roads the clutch/throttle need very careful control, and on gravel it is touch and go whether you stall, or grit spray the van and most of the neighbourhood! 

This loading characteristic is inherent in the van layout and cannot, in prectical terms, be altered.  However, the combination of coarse engine control and the firm clutch don't actually help.  If I could just get a re-map to allow the revs to be built up incrementally, it would take care of most of the problem, I could even control the wheelspin then!  :-)

[techmec]

Hi Brian,

I have a Dethleffs Globevan 1. Ford transit 2.2 tdci 130ps.

Have only stalled it a couple of times but put this down to just getting used to it.

Acc pedal is progressive and smooth ,also engine responds very well.

Clutch action is good.

I treat the clutch with respect, because it has dual mass fly wheel.

This is to smooth out engine vibrations.Beware these can start to

give trouble if treated harshly.

regards.

[colin]

Brian Kirby - 2007-12-23 2:30 PM

The rear overhang is fairly close to the acceptable max, so the front is lightly loaded when in touring trim.  In fact, more so than when the van is empty!  This causes some problems with wheelspin even on quite good surfaces, especially when pulling away up hills. 

Ah my mistake, when I think of Transit's I allways think RWD, must try to read post's more carefully.

[cronkle]

Ours is the 2.2 110 hp engine.

It has stalled a couple of times; usually when I'm going from reverse to 1st.

The flat spot feels just like turbo lag used to so I treated it as that when pulling away. I must admit the extra power over our old fiat 1.9tdi has caused the start of wheel spin occasionally but traction control seems to have sorted that out. However, mine is the lower powered engine when compared to the other ones talked about which may, in practice, make it easier to control the horses when pulling away.

[peteS]

You want to try driving one with an Autoclutch fitted. I am having awful probs with mine at the mo, loads of stalling and as Brian has said can be Bl@@@y dangerouse.

 

hopefully I can get mine adjusted.

 

MK7 2.2 130 PS

 

Pete

[Derek Uzzell]

Funnily enough, when I read the recent Autoclutch-related posting I wondered how well that relatively-simple mechanical device would work on a FWD Transit, given that experienced human drivers are clearly having to adapt their technique to cope with the vehicle's propensity to stall.

[spospe]

We have a 2008 2.4 Duetto with the 140 bhp engine and changed from a 1999 Duetto with the old 2.5 DI engine and found the experience a bit of a shock at first.

 

With the old 2.5, I did not need to give any throttle when moving off on level ground and so found myself often stalling the 2.4 in similar circumstances. However practice makes perfect and it is now much less of a problem and hardly ever happens.

 

I would not let this 'problem' put anyone off a Transit based motorhome, its only practice that you need and to quote my old driving instructor, "exquisite clutch control" ;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

spospe:

 

I wonder if you'll feel the same in 3 years time.

 

That's roughly how long I've owned my Transit Mk 6-based Hobby (2.0litre 125PS motor/5-speed gearbox) and I still stall the brute occasionally. Things do seem to have improved a bit since the vehicle was brand new, presumably because the clutch friction surfaces have polished up and engagement is a mite less sharp, but stall-proneness remains. I was touring in France for a fortnight recently and, because I'm ever aware of the stalling characteristic, after about a week had passed without a stall I was congratulating myself that I must finally have got the hang of it. Some hope, as, during the following week, I stalled the Hobby at least 3 times.

 

The odd thing is that all post-2000 Transits seem to exhibit this tendency, irrespective of engine size, power output or gearing, or which end of the vehicle carries the driven wheels. 45 years ago I learned to drive on a Transit-sized builder's wagon, never had trouble with stalling on that and never had any stalling difficulties with subsequent vehicles. Like your Transit Mk 5-based Duetto, my similar-chassis/engine Herald was totally forgiving when moving from a standstill, but, unless I concentrate a lot harder than I would expect to need to do, I can't guarantee not to stall the Hobby.

 

My attitude is that there are enough external challenges driving on modern roads without the vehicle one is driving adding to them. It would be educational to put a learner driver with no prior motoring experience into a post-2000 Transit and see whether he/she came to terms with it before suffering a nervous breakdown.

 

Personally, if I could exchange my Transit's tendency to stall for the much-publicised Fiat tendency to judder when reversing up a steep slope, I'd opt for the juddering. Obviously I'd prefer to own a vehicle having neither unattractive feature, but, as I've only ever needed to reverse up a steep hill once in a blue moon, whereas I have to start from rest every time I drive, I'd choose the juddering defect as the lesser evil.

[libby]

As fred grant would say

 

"theres nuthin like an auto me ansums, why wobble an old stick about wen he can ave it all dun for 'e automaticy as it were.

 

An e woulden get any of at ol juderin neither. make a note me ansums !!

 

me rekons thats wot Fiat are up to, makin e all buy autos cos they aint able to fix them there a-juderin problems no more.

 

LB

[Brian Kirby]

Just a bit more on this that may be of interest to the afflicted.  It came from a very genial "tech" at a Ford commercial garage near(ish!) home last week when I took it in for a check on an audible warning bleep I keep getting on start up.  He pulled all the information off the vehicle onto his laptop, checked and read it, and re-loaded it.

As he chose to do this while I was in the van, it was quite interesting how much guff is actually stored in the vehicle's memory.  Tyre size, so the speedometer settings can be varied to compensate for different rolling radii, the ability to switch in daylight running lights (just brings the dips on with the ignition), size and type of mirrors fitted, details of all manner of engine components (pumps, turbo etc).  All quite interesting, but the starting bleep is, apparently, a recognised problem for which a new bit of software is being released early May.  Notwithstanding all the above cleverness, my bleep is still there, and will so remain until it get serviced in July.

However, back on track, I also asked about this stalling business, and he acknowledged it is a known problem and gave an explanation as to what underlies it.  According to him, diesel engines can run backwards if taken to stalling point under no load.  I assume this would have to be following a near stall, when a driver dips the clutch and "tickles" the accelerator to "catch" the engine as it is about to die.  Should this happen, he said, the engine then runs out of control and revs to destruction.  To prevent this arising Ford have built in a cut off, that responds at around 600rpm, and simply shuts down the injector fuel supply.  Thus, as I have suspected, what one experiences is not a true stall, but a controlled engine shut down.  Whether the stated reason is reliable, an old wives' tale, or a load of flannel, I know not, but I has me doubts!

However, while struggling with the concept of an engine that can achieve injection and compression when running reversed, I began wondering if this trick might assist Andy with his Fiat reversing problem.  Assuming he can get the timing right between an actual stall and the engine bursting, his van should take off backwards like a scalded cat!  :-)

[davenewellhome]

Hi Brian, there may be some truth in what your man says but I think he's exagerated it a little.

 

The four stroke cycle goes induction, compression, ignition, exhaust (suck squeeze bang blow in simpler terms). If the engine were to run in reverse it would try to draw in air through the exhaust then inject the fuel during the reversed firing stroke (which has now become a compression stroke) but the injection timing is determined by the crank sensor (among others) and this would give the signal at the end of the stroke instead of earlier in the compression stroke. Besides all this the valve timings would all be way off for reverse running so even if it could do it it would really only be for a turn or two.

 

Quite possibly that would be enough to cause serious damage, not least of which to the timing gear (whether that be chain or belt) and valve gear but it certainly wouldn't "run away" to destruction, the fuel and valve timings would see to that.

 

Having said all that it is entirely possible that Ford have designed this "shut down" procedure in to prevent the risk of reverse running as even a short burst backwards could be fatal to the engine.

 

Funnily enough I drove a Land Rover TD5 today that exhibited similar "characteristics", pulling away needed a positive press on the accelerator before starting to release the clutch or it would die.

 

D.

[Penny Frood]

Fiat Ducato 1999 stops on hills- it maybe starts hours later or maybe not. What is going on? Ok on flat road... Mechanics here (New Zealand) don't seem to know. Any ideas on the forum? Thanks

[Keithl]

Penny,

 

You have posted to a ten year old thread on Transits!

 

May I suggest you start a new post with your question on your Ducato.

 

Keith.

[Penny Frood]

I have been searching the site to start a new thread but have not found the way.

 

[Keithl]

At the very top of this page immediately above the first post is a button 'New Thread' (PS Don't click 'New Poll')

 

Keith.