electric step retraction

[Hiphop]

Autocruise Starspirit 2007 (pre Swift). Electric habitation step (single) believed Omnistor doesn't now retract automatically when engine started. Works perfectly when using manual switch. Any help to rectify would be appreciated. Thanks Royce.

[buddy]

The step retraction when the engine is started is normally operated by a power feed from the alternator D+ terminal to a relay that powers the closing of the step motor ,this relay often also powers the 12v fridge operation when the engine is running. There may be a relay with a couple of fuses near it for the step and fridge under the bonnet or the fuses may be on the habitation fuse board.

If you can locate these fuses and they are ok it may be that the relay itself is faulty.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

An electric step’s failure to retract automatically is evidently a fairly common problem with several possible causes.

 

This 2011 forum Autocruise-related thread referred

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Omnistep-electric-step-problem/23252/

 

and this 2020 discussion highlighted variations in how a step may be wired up.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/2003-Bessacar-Omnistep-not-retracting/54659/

 

This advert for a 2007 Autocruise Starspirit shows a ‘double step’.

 

https://www.motorhomedepot.com/vehicle/autocruise-starspirit-2007

 

Online comments suggest that the step might be an Omnistep or made by Project 2000 or by Nuova Mapa (Tecno-Step).

[Hiphop]

Hi Buddy - looks like you have the answer as the fridge hasn't been working either with the engine running. I am not familiar with what a relay looks like but I have found a little black cube like plug-in near the step. Attached is a picture. When I pull it out the step doesnt work on manual switch either so I am guessing this is the relay. Could you confirm please. I guess I can get one on the internet? Many thanks.

[Alanb]

buddy - 2021-07-03 11:02 PM

 

The step retraction when the engine is started is normally operated by a power feed from the alternator D+ terminal to a relay that powers the closing of the step motor ,this relay often also powers the 12v fridge operation when the engine is running. There may be a relay with a couple of fuses near it for the step and fridge under the bonnet or the fuses may be on the habitation fuse board.

If you can locate these fuses and they are ok it may be that the relay itself is faulty.

I am sorry buddy, but I think that parts of your post could be misleading,

 

The true D+ is NOT a power feed, and should only be used as a control signal.

(Excessive loading of the D+ signal could result in the vehicle alternator being reluctant to start generating.)

 

The same relay cannot be used to power the fridge, and retract the step as the relay coil circuit is interrupted by the step limit switch, when the step is fully retracted.

(In order to reduce loading on the D+ point, it is possible for the step relay to be operated via the fridge relay.)

=================================================================================

 

Perhaps the most common cause of motorhome steps failing to retract is a stuck, or faulty step limit switch.

This switch may be either internal or external to the step housing. In the latter case the switch is exposed to road debris, and corrosion does occur. The same switch may be used to operate a step warning light, or sounder.

 

I think for reasons of simplicity, the Omnistep/Thule step diagrams show an ignition switched supply being used to operate the step retract relay, and power the step for this function. This mode of connection results in the step retracting when the ignition is switched ON, and is a possible safety issue. A more preferable arrangement is to operate the step retract relay via the D+ signal, which only becomes live when the engine is started. If this method is adopted the relay contact 87 must be connected to a the normal step supply, or a suitable alternative.

 

Alan

[rayc]

The D+ signal can control a number of systems such as: step retraction when engine starts, sat dish lowering when engine starts, fridge 12v operation when engine running, awning light isolation when engine running.

The first thing is to determine the D+ is present and how the control system uses it.

 

On my Pilote for example the D+ signal is connected to a Electroblock EBL271 and it is used to control the various outputs. It has a switch that can provide D+ HIGH [12v] or LOW [0v]. My system requires the switch to be set the LOW.

[buddy]

Hello Hiphop , yes that is a relay and should be the correct one , Halfords or a car spares shop should have one to sell you (take it with you, as there are different types) , they are not expensive . That is after you have checked all of the fuses (including fridge) and have confirmed they are ok. It has been pointed out that I may have not explained things correctly but I have tried to keep it simple and it could be other things causing your problem (possible the fridge relay) and you may need an electrician to check things out if my simple ideas do not fix things.

[rayc]

Hiphop - 2021-07-04 9:28 AM

 

Hi Buddy - looks like you have the answer as the fridge hasn't been working either with the engine running. I am not familiar with what a relay looks like but I have found a little black cube like plug-in near the step. Attached is a picture. When I pull it out the step doesnt work on manual switch either so I am guessing this is the relay. Could you confirm please. I guess I can get one on the internet? Many thanks.

If the relay is working on manual step retraction then presumably there is nothing wrong with it. Why the step does not retract when the engine starts is a different matter.

[Alanb]

rayc - 2021-07-04 10:10 AM

 

Hiphop - 2021-07-04 9:28 AM

 

Hi Buddy - looks like you have the answer as the fridge hasn't been working either with the engine running. I am not familiar with what a relay looks like but I have found a little black cube like plug-in near the step. Attached is a picture. When I pull it out the step doesnt work on manual switch either so I am guessing this is the relay. Could you confirm please. I guess I can get one on the internet? Many thanks.

If the relay is working on manual step retraction then presumably there is nothing wrong with it. Why the step does not retract when the engine starts is a different matter.

Hiphop,

 

You have found the correct relay, but do not rush to blame the relay for your problems.

 

As your state that your fridge also is not working on 12V, as has been suggested above, a missing D+ signal is the most likely cause. I do not wish to appear offensive, but as you are obviously not familiar with relays and electrical circuits, you may need to seek the assistance of a caravan technician, or automotive electrician.

 

rayc,

 

The step retract relay does not operate, when the manual push buttons are used. The relay does however carry the step motor current through its normally closed (NC) contact. Hence the failure of the step to operate when the relay was removed.

 

Alan

[Hiphop]

Anyone any idea where the fridge relay is? Autocruise Starspirit 2007 (pre Swift). Many thanks

[buddy]

Have you looked under the bonnet ? sometimes they are located there on Motorhomes along with their fuses. (normally near the starter battery if that is fitted under the bonnet on your model)

[Alanb]

With the Fiat Ducato, the location of the starter battery was changed with the introduction of the x250 in mid 2006.

 

Presuming a Fiat base vehicle (information not given), it could be either an x244, with the starter battery under the bonnet, or an x250 with the battery under the LH cab floor.

 

The version is easily determined from the VIN number i.e. xxx244......., or xxx250....... The VIN number is in the V5C, as well as being on the VIN plate.

 

Alan

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2014 forum thread discussed distinguishing between Autocruise-badged motorhomes built before and after Autocruise was taken over by Swift.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Autocruise-pre-and-post-takeover/34681/

 

(However, there are clearly some caveats to beware of.)

 

Both of the photos attached below are taken from online adverts for a "2007 Autocruise Starspirit". Both vehicles are based on a Peuget Boxer chassis, but the upper photo relates to a ‘X244’ Starspirit, while the lower photo is of a ‘X250’ Starspirit.

 

As Alan has said, production of the X244 chassis ceased in mid-2006, but it’s easy to identify a X244 from a X250 as the frontal appearance (particularly the headlamps) is visibly different.

[buddy]

Hiphop ,Do you know which make, type and model of electrical system is fitted in the habitation side of your Motorhome , there should be something on the power supply box. / fuse box which gives this information. (or it may have this information in the handbook)

[Derek Uzzell]

See also this (now frozen) thread

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fridge-relay-autocruise-starspirit/58448/

 

(Given that the fridge does not operate from 12V and the step does not automatically retract, it was always a fair bet that the problem lay with there being no ‘signal’ from the motorhome’s alternator/ignition-switch rather than with the fridge and step relays.)

[Hiphop]

Thanks Derek - I started a new thread because I couldn't reply on the original - perhaps it was frozen.

 

Anyway I've replaced all relevant fuses and two relays. One I definitely know is the step relay as the step doesn't operate on manual switch if I take the relay out. The other relay I found beside the 12 volt fuses but can't confirm it is the fridge relay (are there more than two relays in my motorhome 12 volt system? If not then it is the fridge relay).

 

So now I may have reached the end of my capabilities on this issue and can now only think that Derek's prognosis is most likely in that the D+ feed from the alternator is the likely source of the problem.

 

I did have an oil change just before the 12 volt fridge and step retraction problem occurred. Could a wire have been dislodged from the alternator at the time of the oil change? Is there anywhere I could look for the D+ feed? Many thanks.

[rayc]

Hiphop - 2021-07-06 1:23 PM

 

Thanks Derek - I started a new thread because I couldn't reply on the original - perhaps it was frozen.

 

Anyway I've replaced all relevant fuses and two relays. One I definitely know is the step relay as the step doesn't operate on manual switch if I take the relay out. The other relay I found beside the 12 volt fuses but can't confirm it is the fridge relay (are there more than two relays in my motorhome 12 volt system? If not then it is the fridge relay).

 

So now I may have reached the end of my capabilities on this issue and can now only think that Derek's prognosis is most likely in that the D+ feed from the alternator is the likely source of the problem.

 

I did have an oil change just before the 12 volt fridge and step retraction problem occurred. Could a wire have been dislodged from the alternator at the time of the oil change? Is there anywhere I could look for the D+ feed? Many thanks.

 

Did you confirm whether your model is X244 or X250?

[buddy]

It would help to know the electrical system that is fitted in your van , can you say what is written on the control panel ? if anything.

[Hiphop]

Hopefully I can now answer some of the questions above. The chassis base is Peugeot Boxer April 2007 on X250.

 

The habitation 12 volt system is Autocruise Management System but it looks like it was manufactured by Kiglass Electronics Model VB 03/2 DOM 18/08. The bar code on the back of the panel is 92010 -008 p/n 99502.

 

I have attached a photo of the wiring diagram taken from the manua and the relay which I believe serves the fridge.

 

Finally a friendly habitation service engineer tells me it is a common problem for both the step auto retraction and the fridge 12 volt to fail together as they both run off the same split relay from the Alternator D+ feed. He wasn't friendly enough to tell me where the split relay is or to be fair he might not have known. We are getting warmer and if no one can tell me where the split relay is my next move is to the service engineer with Debit Card in hand!

 

Thanks

 

Royce

 

[buddy]

Looking at that wiring diagram I think you will find that the fridge and step are controlled through the energy manager box (the step also has a relay) the only other relay that I can see is for the side marker lights. This box appears to be instead of a fridge relay but doing a similar job (and many other things).

There is a feed from the alternator but seems to be marked charge+ shown at the coach builders socket and you need someone who can check if it is getting to the energy manager box and if not trace it back to find the cause , if, with the engine running power is getting to the box it may be that it is a faulty item and not allowing the fridge/step operation which it controls.

The photos in the link in your post, Solar panel connection, 8 June 2021 show the D+ (charge+) connection on the side view of module A. the energy manager box.

[rayc]

Separate Split charge Relays are things of a past generation.

 

On the X250 the Alternator D+ output is a separate terminal on the alternator, the other being B+ which is the charging voltage.

The D+ signal connects into the ECU. When the ignition is ON, but engine NOT running, the D+ contact on the alternator is taken to ground negative by the internals of the alternator. The negative on D+ causes the battery lamp to come ON on the dash which gets its positive from the ECU. When the engine starts the D+ output goes to 12v by the alternator charge and the dash lamp goes out as it now has 12v on both sides. If the lamp is working correctly i.e.it goes out when engine starts then the alternator D+ signal is ok.

There is a D+ connection left for the MH convertor to use, normally on a block within the lower panel of the {UK} drivers seat belt housing. The Convertor will feed the signal to their controls where it can be used to operate the step and sat dish retraction at start up, fridge 12v when engine running etc.

On my MH the positive D+ signal is converted by the electronics to become a negative signal as that is what is required by my systems. [ there is a switch to select either D+ High [12v] or low [ov ] as required. If I set it to High then none of the associated systems work.]

 

Anyway the first thing to do is to check for the D+ signal at the convertors electronics. It is possible there is a fuse associated with it.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The “Energy Management System” (EMS) fitted by Autocruise (and a few more UK motorhome builders) has been discussed here in the past. This 2020 forum thread (that Royce is aware of) included several photos including a better quaiity wiring diagram image, plus other links that might be useful.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Autocruise-Starspirit-problem/56306/

 

If the wiring-diagram is correct for Royce’s 2007 Starspirit and the fridge/step problems are due to a faulty EMS ‘black box’, the chances of obtaining a replacement will be very slim.

 

It should be relatively straightforward to fit a loud ’step out’ buzzer and just use the manual switch to extend/retract the step (It’s the approach I took when I fitted an electric step to my Hobby motorhome) but the fridge problem obviously needs addressing. I can’t see Royce being able to resolve that problem himself and - if the EMS is the culprit - finding someone familiar with that system may prove difficult.

 

 

[rayc]

Has it been ascertained that the D+ signal is getting to the EMS?

If it comes to the crunch it would be relatively simple to install a split charge relay to feed the fridge. This could be a voltage sensing one that operates when the voltage rises due to the alternator charging.

[Hiphop]

Result!!! Motivated by the suggestion above that there must be a fuse between the D+ feed and the relay I found a blown 10 amp fuse in the habitation fuse box shown in the picture above. Replaced it, started the engine, the step immediately retracted and the 12 volt fridge came on. So we do know that the step retraction and 12 volt fridge are linked. Many thanks to all posts - you got the result in the end. (Appreciate I could have gone through every fuse in the fuse box but I had already replaced the fuse marked 'fridge' which was 2 amp and the fuse marked 'step' so didn't feel the need to go further at the time - hindsight!) Royce.

[Alanb]

rayc - 2021-07-07 8:31 AM

 

Has it been ascertained that the D+ signal is getting to the EMS?

If it comes to the crunch it would be relatively simple to install a split charge relay to feed the fridge. This could be a voltage sensing one that operates when the voltage rises due to the alternator charging.

 

.....and whenever you try to charge the starter battery from mains?

 

The OP is obviously struggling with electrical items, as evidenced by his own statement that he could not recognise a relay. I think that it is unwise to propose DIY modifications, to someone without minimal relevant expertise.

 

However we have on this forum previously coached members into using a multimeter, tracing faults and module repair, by a third party when soldering skills were required.

 

Alan