My Motorhome Nightmare

[Mickydripin]

I have just had an email from MMM asking what I will be doing for Christmas

Well I would like to tell you in short.

I put my old motorhome in exchange for a new Sharky L2 since then it has been a nightmare I was told lies about the intrest rate, then they told lies about it being a front loaded loan from the finance company, then they refused me when I rejected it and deniying everything, then they damaged my motorhome in several areas when they were fitting accessories, then I found out that the weights on my base vehicle were under what was in the brochure and the dealer did not want to know.

In April/May I decided to see a solicitor who said OH! yes you can have them for this they can not sell you a vehicle of one weight on the V5 and sell you a lower weight. And in the next breath said that will cost you £2.500 to start the case thank you.

It has cost me in excess of £10,000 so far and there does not seem to be any end to it so I can tell you my answer to MMM there will not be a Christmas at my house this year and I can not use my new motorhome either as it has sat in my garden since this debacle started.

I only wanted a better life in my Motorhome and a bit of enjoyment in to my retirement so beware all you people that are looking for a dream there are some bad dealers out there that do not give a dam once they have got your money. Mike :-( :-( :-(

[Guest Tracker]

That is a very very sad tale Mickey and my heart goes out to you.

 

Would you care to name and shame the guilty parties for us?

[Mel B]

Mickydripin - 2008-11-23 4:40 PM

 

I have just had an email from MMM asking what I will be doing for Christmas

Well I would like to tell you in short.

I put my old motorhome in exchange for a new Sharky L2 since then it has been a nightmare I was told lies about the intrest rate, then they told lies about it being a front loaded loan from the finance company, then they refused me when I rejected it and deniying everything, then they damaged my motorhome in several areas when they were fitting accessories, then I found out that the weights on my base vehicle were under what was in the brochure and the dealer did not want to know.

In April/May I decided to see a solicitor who said OH! yes you can have them for this they can not sell you a vehicle of one weight on the V5 and sell you a lower weight. And in the next breath said that will cost you £2.500 to start the case thank you.

It has cost me in excess of £10,000 so far and there does not seem to be any end to it so I can tell you my answer to MMM there will not be a Christmas at my house this year and I can not use my new motorhome either as it has sat in my garden since this debacle started.

I only wanted a better life in my Motorhome and a bit of enjoyment in to my retirement so beware all you people that are looking for a dream there are some bad dealers out there that do not give a dam once they have got your money. Mike :-( :-( :-(

 

Hi Mickey

 

I'm so sorry to hear of your tale of woe, what a horrible thing to happen. Unfortunately, as with all things, it is a case of buyer beware. Unfortunately it is all too easy to believe what you are told.

 

Did you not get anything in writing about the loan? The paperwork should have explained exactly the terms under which you were taking it out. The types of vehicle loans that dealers offer are never straight forward and have additional charges, often both at the beginning and end, something you don't get with a regular loan from and bank or building society, one reason why I'd never go near one.

 

As for the payload, this is a known bone of contention with motorhomes and you have been unfortunate to be caught in this 'trap'. The brochures are not accurate in many instances, if indeed the weight is mentioned at all, and it doesn't include the additional weight of any accessories you may have fitted either. The brochures, to my knowledge, always have a 'disclaimer' of some sort to protect the manufacturers.

 

There is not excuse for them damaging your van at all, we had this a couple of times from a dealer and went ballistic with them and the person who had 'done the deed' was certainly taken to task about it.

 

Why has it cost you so much to this stage? Did you go down the legal route in the end? It's not totally clear if you did or not. Why has your van been standing unused, is it not usable or did you choose not to use it?

 

Please note, I'm not criticising you at all, I'm just trying to make more sense of all of this.

[Mickydripin]

Hi Tracker I would like to name and shame but as it is going to court I do not want to jeperdise my case but watch this space

[twooks]

good luck Michael,

don't leave it so long to your next post and let us know how things progress

 

B-)

[Mickydripin]

Hi Mel B.

I was told interest rate when I ordered was 6% I was told it was not a front loaded loan also I never received the Paperwork from the finance company untill two weeks after delivery of motorhome,

It has cost so much because of paying the solicitor, I had booked a holiday in france for four months so we had to hire a caravan as a motorhome would hav cost too much and buy all the accessories plus extra insurance plus I have had to pay the finance as they told me they would send in the baillifs if I did not, plus insurance and storage I had hoped that we could go in our motorhome.

I can not use my motorhome as I weighed it off at weighbridge with almost empty fuel tank no water and one passenger nothing else and I was only allowed 160KG then it would be over weight

[Brian Kirby]

Just four quick questions, Mike.

What weight is in the brochure you have?

What weight is on the V5?

What weight is the vehicle plated at?

What payload were you expecting, and how did you know this, as the Sharky catalogue I've seen doesn't mention it?

[rupert123]

Mickydripin - 2008-11-23 5:25 PM

 

Hi Mel B.

I was told interest rate when I ordered was 6% I was told it was not a front loaded loan also I never received the Paperwork from the finance company untill two weeks after delivery of motorhome,

It has cost so much because of paying the solicitor, I had booked a holiday in france for four months so we had to hire a caravan as a motorhome would hav cost too much and buy all the accessories plus extra insurance plus I have had to pay the finance as they told me they would send in the baillifs if I did not, plus insurance and storage I had hoped that we could go in our motorhome.

I can not use my motorhome as I weighed it off at weighbridge with almost empty fuel tank no water and one passenger nothing else and I was only allowed 160KG then it would be over weight

 

Mike I do not understand this. If you were quoted a rate of 6% this should have been an apr rate which I believe everyone is obliged to quote these days, if it was not quoted as apr then the actual rate if 6% quoted would have been around 12%. All hire purchase agreements, which dealers will offer rather than a personal loan, are front loaded but this makes no real differance unless you intend to pay it of early. Surely you were given a copy at the time of signing. 160kg with no fluids must be something wrong here.

[Mickydripin]

Hi and thanks for all your replys when I wrote my posting I was very low and wanted to blow off steam and warn other would be motorhomers of the problems that they could find when buying a motorhome.

as a lot of questions are being asked ( as we all do) I can not answer any more due to the case being ongoing and people that I have greviances with may well be doing the asking so I will not be answering any more questions for now but rest assured all will be told once it is all over and it will be very interesting reading thanks. Mike.

[Rainbow-Chasers]

Very wise words there, let us know how you get on when you can!

 

You are protected from mis-selling of finance though! The FSA will be the best to contact about that.

[Itexuk]

Have you has contact with Sea Group who are the UK part of the Italian company who manufacture them.

http://www.sea-camper.com/en/index.wbl

 

I needed information about my Mobilvetta and found them very helpfull

[CliveH]

Indeed they are if the rates were not given or made clear to you

 

The FSA website is very good and is at

 

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/

 

But before you took delivery the loan or HP should have been set up and the full documentation provided. With that documentation should have been the "Key Facts" documents that are FSA requirements and they show the full details of the financial transaction.

 

If you are complaining via a Solicitor re the vehicle that is fine but do remember that you would probably be better off using the FOS (Financial Ombudsmans Service) re the loan/HP.

 

You have to complain to the provider first and then if they reject your claim then you can refer it to the FOS. The beauty of this is that it costs you nothing.

 

To me it looks as though you have gone about this round the wrong way (SORRY! - don't shoot the messenger!) - if you had gone to the FOS first and won then you could have gone to court with that win in "the bag" and so a claim for the misrepresentation of the vehicle would have been much easier.

 

As it stands you are going to get a big bill from a solicitor and you may not win if the other side has all the documentation to back up their side. And of course if you then go to the FOS the other side could point out the result of the court case and whilst it should not influence the FOS investigation of the sale of the loan/HP agreement, it is likely that you will have more of a battle on your hands.

 

 

[Brambles]

On the subject of weights, I think you will find in this instance the Motorhome (sharky L2) is rated at 3500, but the plate fitted in error is 3300.

[twooks]

Brambles - 2008-11-24 6:24 PM

 

On the subject of weights, I think you will find in this instance the Motorhome (sharky L2) is rated at 3500, but the plate fitted in error is 3300.

 

If I read this right that still only gives 360 kg - not much lee way there

 

B-)

[Brian Kirby]

It may be of use to anyone affected by this, or similar matters, to follow this link:  http://tinyurl.com/66pwu4

It seeks to set out the various requirements for motorhome payloads.

[Mickydripin]

Hi you said that the vehicle was plated in error it was not Fiat have confermed to me that it was not plated in error but it is clear to them that the wrong body was fitted

[Brian Kirby]

Mick

Do you have that information from Fiat in writing?  If not, do get them to confirm it. 

As it seems the Sharky was built on the wrong chassis in error at the factory, and if you check the information in my linked post above, I think you will find it so deficient in payload as to be immediately rejectable as not fit for purpose.  However, as an aside, even if on the right chassis it would be a highly marginal vehicle.  Best advice, when you get the replacement, make sure you opt for a reliable maker, and don't expect to get more that 4 berths onto a 3,500Kg chassis. 

Do feel free to copy and print the information at the beginning of my linked post, and let your solicitor have a copy.  He may be aware of it, but if he isn't I think it may prove valuable to you, as BS EN 1646-2 establishes what is considered reasonable provision for occupants and their luggage etc. 

Make sure he is including all your incidental costs in his claim for damages, and try to find out if you can be given any special status in the event he goes bankrupt in the meantime. 

At the very least, and in all fairness, you should be able to take a new van from his forecourt to the same value as yours - which should never have got out of the factory, leave alone being sold.  However, whether anything like that is legally possible, I have no idea.  Good luck!

[Brambles]

Having now looked at the Fiat website and specs along with the Sharky Website it appears the L2 uses the medium wheelbase Ducato. There are 2 Weights for the medium wheelbase 3300 and 3500. Quite how the camping car version fits in I cannot tell.

So it would appear what you are saying is Sharky have used a 3300 weight vehicle with presumably lighter suspension when they should have used a 3500.

I hope you get this sorted out soon and can understand now why you have not used vehicle. Downright appauling the dealer has not sorted this out and got the vehicle replaced if this is the case.

[Mickydripin]

Hi Brian it seeme,s to me that you are well up on motorhome rules and regs and I read about people on MMM talking all the time about uprating the weights on there vehicles but do they know that Fiat UK do not authorise any uprating of weights on the 250 series ducato model.

They say there are independant firms who will do this sort of thing but they do not condone this activity how many owners have done this and are ignorant to the fact that it could affect there warranty

[Derek Uzzell]

Might be worth forum-members looking at the following:

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-520351.html

[Mickydripin]

Yes I do have it in writing from Fiat I do not like quoting things that I can not Proove

[Mickydripin]

Hi Brian your info on payloads is very interesting but a few years ago when I was a lorry driver I had a bad accident and i had a head injury now I find it difficult to get my head around figures can you help.

My motorhome is plated at 3,300KG GVW and when I took it to the weighbridge to ascertain the MIRO it weighed out at 3,060KG with no water a quarter of tank of diesel and driver

It is a six berth with six Belted seats inclusive of driver and it is 6.43Mts long would it be too much trouble to work out how I would be situated if you worked mine out as you have done yours in your article on pay loads thanks. Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

Mickydripin - 2008-11-30 11:01 AM Hi Brian your info on payloads is very interesting but a few years ago when I was a lorry driver I had a bad accident and i had a head injury now I find it difficult to get my head around figures can you help. My motorhome is plated at 3,300KG GVW and when I took it to the weighbridge to ascertain the MIRO it weighed out at 3,060KG with no water a quarter of tank of diesel and driver It is a six berth with six Belted seats inclusive of driver and it is 6.43Mts long would it be too much trouble to work out how I would be situated if you worked mine out as you have done yours in your article on pay loads thanks. Mike.

Mick, I think it would work out along these lines.  You will see I have made assumptions regarding fresh water capacity and gas cylinder number and size.  However, you end up 500Kg over weight so, even on the right chassis you'd be overloaded.  I'm sure that is why SEA have not declared the MIRO for this vehicle in their catalogue. 

SEA Sharky L2
Load calculation to BS EN 1646-2.
Length (metres)					6.43
Weights, including fitted options.					Kg
Unladen weight (25% fuel, no driver, weighbridge)					3,060
Balance to 90% fill fuel tank, say					45
Driver @ 75Kg					75
MIRO (Mass in running order)					3,180
Essential Habitation Equipment
Water, 100 litres assumed					100
1 x 13Kg gas assumed, 90% full					27
Total weight, inc Essential Habitation Equipment					3,307
Passenger and Baggage allowances
5 belted seats x 75Kg					375
Baggage per passenger (10Kg x 6)					60
Baggage per metre (10Kg x 6.43)					64
Total weight, inc Passengers and Baggage					3,806
MTPLM					3,300
Overload					506

In practice, of course, what would count would be the actual weights of the driver and passengers, gas cylinders, and actual quantity of water in the tank.

However, be that as it may, there seems little doubt your van does not meet the requirements of EN 1646-2.  Form your point of view, the problem is that it is not legally required to do so.  However, the standard is intended to establish what is a reasonable loading allocation for a motorhome. 

That should leave the seller of your van having to present an alternative calculation to prove that the van he sold you is a reasonably usable motorhome, or having to accept that it is not. 

However, as the error appears to have arisen in the factory, I cannot understand why he is arguing at all.  He should be able to take this up with SEA, and they should replace the van.  It seems it is their error.

You are wise not to accept the offer to re-plate the vehicle up.  Even if it were acceptable to Fiat, which thankfully it is not, it is only achieved by adding the maximum permissible weight of the front axle to that of the rear axle.  This increases the MTPLM, but leaves you with the same axle load limits as before.  As it is usually one or other of the axles that gets overloaded before the MTPLM is reached, this is of very little, if any, advantage to the user.

[Mickydripin]

Hi Brian thanks for all your help I have had an answer from my dealer via my solicitor and he now says that he is awaiting a reply from the importers who say that they are waiting for a reply from Sharky in Italy god knows who they are going back to next I think they are just trying to pass the buck.

The information that you have given me will be saved should I need it in the next round with them where I go from there is anybody's guess

[twooks]

Interesting link Derek,

nicely explained Brian

 

B-)