Booked for speeding

[mco]

Whilst driving the motorhome recently Mike was pulled over by an unmarked police car and the policeman booked him for doing 60 mph on an A road.

 

The policeman would not accept the fact that motorhomes under 3,050 kg unladen weight are treated differently to commercial vans and are subject to the same speed restrictions as cars.

 

Basically , he told Mike to challenge it in court. To me, that's a complete waste of tax payers money, when all he has to do is check up on the relevant road traffic act which Mike quoted to him courtesy of MMM.

 

Needless to say he has not paid the fine and expects the summons to arrive any day.

[BGD]

Sorry to hear that Carol;

 

But I guess in the end that's what a court is there to do: to decide upon the law and whther in any specific set of circumstances it was broken.

 

The Police report is simply that, a report of Police Officers suspicion that some aspect of the criminal law was broken.

 

The Police do not any longer decide on prosecution upon such reports, that decsion now rests with the CPS, who are independent of the Police.

if (and it is an if) the CPS when they review the report do decide to proceed to a prosecution attempt, then Mike will be able to reply to that written summons in writing with his reasons for saying no case to answer.

 

If the CPS don't accept his reasons at that point, then he has another chancxe to prove his innocence of the speeding offence at a hearing befoe Magistrates.

 

I know it's messy, but I think on balance that system is better than the copper at the roadside being judge and jury.

 

But wading through that system is of course still a pain for Mike if the Copper wasn't clear on the exact details of the speed limit laws applicable to specific weights of MH.

 

[twooks]

I've got a copy of the relevant bits in the van - along with all the other copies that I always carry,

never needed it so don't know whether it would do any good

it may be, of course, that the traffic police do not have the discretionary power to override the camera [i presume it was on camera] results.

 

stupid - but par for the course

 

B-)

[davenewellhome]

I'd respectfully suggest that you check that your 'van's ACTUAL unladen weight is below the 3050KG mark, simple enough to do, empty it out and visit a weighbridge then you'll have the ticket for proof if anyone in court challenges you on that point.

 

D.

[Guest peter]

As it's taxed as PLG it's bound by the same restrictions as a car. So what's the problem. If the "A" road had a lower speed limit and it was exceeded then you would be done, no matter what the vehicle.

[BGD]

But do we know if Mike's MH is taxed as a PLG?

 

 

Not all MH's under 3,500 kgs are PLG.

It seems that motorhome VED taxation classes can be a bit of a can of worms in some cases.

 

 

 

This from the official DVLA blurb on VED taxation classes:

 

"All vehicle licensing and registration is governed by the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (VERA). Classification for taxation purposes depends on the construction of a vehicle and its use on the public road.

Vehicle excise duty (VED) rates for cars and light vans are based on European type approval standards and the date of first registration in the UK. European type approval is the testing that new types of vehicles must undergo to ensure they conform to European safety and environmental standards.

Motor caravans are exempt from type approval requirements (until April 2012) and would therefore normally be licensed in one of the following taxation classes. These classes will apply to all motor caravans first registered before 1st March 2001:

Private/Light Goods (TC11): if the vehicle has a revenue weight (GVW) of not more than 3,500kg. This would be the appropriate tax class regardless of its use.

Private/Heavy Goods Vehicle (TC10): if the vehicle has a revenue weight exceeding 3,500kg and the vehicle is not used for the conveyance of goods or burden, for hire or reward or in connection with a trade, business or profession.

These taxation classes also apply to motor caravans first registered on or after 1 March 2001, even if they have been Type Approved under the European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval system [Note 1]. (Note that this is not the case for most other Type Approved vehicles, which will fall into the Graduated VED classes and the VED payable is dependent on the level of CO2 emmissions)

It is possible that a vehicle may have been registered before its conversion to a motor caravan. In that case it is likely (if registered on or after 1st March 2001 and the revenue weight is 3500kg or less) to have been type approved in the N1 class (light goods vehicle) or possibly in the M1 (Special Purpose) category. In such cases the taxation class will be Light goods vehicle (TC39) or Diesel Car (TC49)/Petrol Car (TC48) respectively

Once a vehicle has been first registered and licensed according to its type approval status as N1 or M1, its status for the purposes of paying VED (i.e. the tax class shown on the V5C) will not change, irrespective of any alteration that may be made to it following its first registration [Note 2].

It is possible for vehicles in other tax classes, following a change of body type to motorcaravan, to relicense in a more suitable tax class.

 

Euro4

A special situation may apply if a goods vehicle was registered, before its conversion to a motor caravan, between 1 March 2003 and 31 December 2006 on the basis of a type approval certificate which shows it as having been type approved as a Light Goods Vehicle which meets Euro 4 environmental standards. In that case it would be licensed in the Euro 4 LGV taxation class (TC36). Once a vehicle has been first registered and licensed in this taxation class, its status for the purposes of paying VED (i.e. the tax class shown on the V5C) will not change, irrespective of any alteration that may be made to it following its first registration.

 

The current rates of duty for all taxation classes are given in the DVLA leaflet V149, available for download as a pdf here: www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/forms/v149.pdf "

 

 

 

 

If his is in a taxation class (or even, should according to the Plod who stopped him have been in a VED class?) other than T11, maybe the speed limits are different?

 

 

 

 

[Guest peter]

Well, all he has to do is look at his V5. Don't know why this hasn't already been done. If it says PLG he is in the clear as regards Comercial vehicle speed restrictions.

[mco]

Dave, If Mike is summonsed to court he had decided to go to the weighbridge. As you say the document would be proof of the under 3,050 kg.

 

Peter, the policeman was given the relevant Road Traffic Act by Mike but he wouldn't accept it. The A road was 60 mph. The first thing that the policeman said when he pulled Mike over was 'do you know what the speed limit is on an A road for this vehicle' Mike replied 'yes, 60 mph'. Policeman said 'no, 50 mph'.

 

As a matter of interest, about a week after the above incident, we were talking to our recently retired local policeman and I asked him what the speed limit was for our motorhome on an A road. He said 50 mph. He told us that the police force add a couple of extra seats to their vans which then allows them to be driven at the same speed as cars !

[mco]

Peter, just picked up your last post. It does say PLG on the V5.

[BGD]

If the "Revenue Weight" (ie the empty weight) is over 3050kgs then it seems from my web-reading this evening that the lower speed limit applies, even if the Gross Vehicle Weight (The Maximum Allowed Mass) limit is 3,500kgs:

 

This is from Practical Motorhome, quoting the DVLA:

"Most motorcaravans are classified in UK law as a ‘motor car’, or ‘heavy motor car’ according to whether or not they exceed 3050kg unladen weight. This distinction is important and can affect how the vehicle is treated under the law. For example, speed limits alter over a certain weight, so a motorhome with an unladen weight of more than 3050kg is restricted to 50mph on single-carriageway roads.

 

Dave Newell's point above seems very well-made, as the breakpoint for having to obey the lower speed limits seems not to be based upon VED category....(which in the main is determined by what your motorhomes MAM or GVW is) as that just drives the VED tax band you are in.

 

Instead the speed limit breakpoint seems based upon the Unladen Weight of the Motorhome.

 

 

If this is true (those with more experience on this topic please feel free to correct my very limited research conclusions!); it could be perfectly possible to have a Motorhome with a GVW/MAM of 3,500kgs; but with an Unladen Weight of above 3,050kgs.

Seems to me from the above quoted excerpts that in such a case, it would fall into the "reduced speed limits" category, even if it's VED taxation Class was PLG.

 

Do others agree with this rationale?

 

[mco]

Bruce, thanks for your info., you've obviously been very busy.

According to the manufactor the unladen weight is 2,912 kgs, but, as I said earlier if the matter came to court a visit to the weighbridge would be in order.

[BGD]

Old hands will probably know all this stuff backwards, but I thought the following info may be helpful to some:

 

 

 

Unladen weight.

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is:

 

•inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road; and

•exclusive of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle.

 

 

 

Maximum authorised mass.

The term maximum authorised mass (MAM), which is also known as gross weight and permissible maximum weight, is the maximum weight of the vehicle that may be used on the road including the maximum load the vehicle may safely carry. This is normally shown on a plate fitted to the vehicle.

 

If a vehicle is unlikely to be used at its potential maximum weight most vehicles may be downplated, i.e. the vehicles springs or other components can be changed, so that only a lighter load can be carried. The maximum authorised mass or gross weight is a factor in determining what driving entitlement is required.

 

 

Plated weight.

The maximum authorised mass should be shown on the departments manufacturing plate fitted to the vehicle. This means the marking on a goods vehicle, by means of a ministry plate, showing the maximum weights for that particular vehicle eg maximum authorised mass, and in certain cases, train weight.

 

 

Train weight

Train weight is the combined MAM of the vehicle and the trailer it is pulling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Further information

All enquiries concerning maximum weights of rigid vehicles, trailers and articulated combinations (but not driving licence categories) should be referred to:

 

Transport, Technology and Standards

Department for Transport

Zone 2/01, Great Minster House

76 Marsham Street

London

SW1P 4DR

 

Email:

 

tts.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk

 

 

 

[Patricia]

You have set me thinking with the idea of visiting a weighbridge if there was a dispute about the unladen weight. In my case I don't actually know what the unladen weight should be but there are "additions" to my motorhome which could not be removed in order to weigh it empty e.g. tow frame and back bar, two extra three-point seat belts, roll out awning, two leisure batteries etc. Would the combined weight of these be deducted or included?

[davenewellhome]

I wouldn't wait for it to go to court, I'd make that weighbridge visit a priority even if only to put your own mind at rest. Manufacturers brochure figures are notoriously inaccurate and if your unladen weight is over the 3050KG mark then the lower speed limit applies. Why wait till the court summons to find out?

 

D.

[Guest Tracker]

Interestingly my Autocruise Starburst has two weight plates.

One from Peugeot with an mtplm of 3400 kg and one from Alko with an mtplm of 3500 kg.

The difference is down to the Alko chassis rear suspension with it's maximum axle weight increased from the Peugeot 1900 kg to an Alko axle limit of 2000 kg.

But nowhere does it tell me the unladen weight which, according to the Autocruise brochure, is allegedly 2761 kg - but that alone would hardly be accepted as evidence in a court of law I would imagine.

More to the point I would not be able to show PC Plod any physical evidence of being under the magic 3050 kg unladen, or miro, should the need arise on the roadside.

It is registered on the V5c as a body type motor caravan and taxation class plg but it omits the plated revenue weight of 3500 kg which has usually been shown on previous van's V5.

I also h - according to the brochure - but I doubt that includes things like awning, second leisure battery, status aerial and who knows whatever else that did not get included.

I think maybe a visit or two to a weighbridge both empty and laden is called for to clarify the actual weights.

[BGD]

Rich - I guess you are right.

 

It makes sense that it's not what the Manufacturer or Converter "Claims" your Unladen weight is that matters.

It's surely gotta be what your Unladen Weight ACTUALLY is.

 

I saw the official definition of "unladen weight" on some gov.uk website last night, but can't remember where, so can't include the actual official wording in this post (others may have it to hand).

 

But it said roughly that Unladen Weight is the overall weight of the vehicle in running order, but excluding: fuel, water, spare wheel, loose tools and loose extras.

 

 

 

So in answer to Pat's earlier question, that definition would seem to indicate that Unladen Weight should also include fixtures bolted to/welded to the vehicle (as they ain't loose extras).

 

 

 

I could thus imagine that by the time you've wacked onto your motorhome an awning, a towbar, a bike rack, a roof box, a rear ladder, a sat dish, an extra leisure battery, and a couple of other bolt-on/bolt-in extras, the ACTUAL unladen weight is gonna be significantly higher than when it was first constructed.

 

 

I did see on some other website that someone mentioned a common practice is to get your actual vehicle weighed on a weighbridge, then deduct 80kgs (to account for spare wheel, vehicle fluids, loose tools etc), and thus arrive at a notional "unladen weight" for your motorhome.

But there didn't seem to be any legal basis for this suggested practice so far as I could see.

 

Muddy waters indeed........... :-S

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

And even if you do get a weighbridge certificate it may well only be accepted as being valid on the day it was printed - much as an MOT certificate although valid for one year can only relate to the vehicle's actual condition at that one moment in time - and may well be unacceptable as evidence say one or two years on?

 

The waters get muddier!

[Brian Kirby]

mco - 2008-12-02 10:55 PM Bruce, thanks for your info., you've obviously been very busy. According to the manufactor the unladen weight is 2,912 kgs, but, as I said earlier if the matter came to court a visit to the weighbridge would be in order.

However, any fixture you have added to your van will not be included in the manufacturer's figure, but will add to its unladen weight.  For example, awning, cycle/motorcycle rack, satellite dish, solar panels, and even factory fit extras/options, such as cab aircon, if not included in the base spec. 

You have 138Kg to play with, between what the brochure states, and the critical limit.  The brochure figure is only supposed to be accurate to within +/- 5%, which allows an acceptable upward tolerance of 146 Kg - which exceeds the margin by which you are below 3050Kg, even without taking accessories etc into account.  I agree with Dave: weighbridge - now!

If the weighbridge proves correct, rather than wasting time on the court procedure, why not check that there has not been a change to interpretation of unladen weight under Scottish law (unlikely, I think), and then speak to the police about the ticket, saying you are sure there has been a mistake, and telling them why?  Once you get to a more senior officer, you should get a bit more sense and they should agree that the ticket was issued in error.  Under these circumstances, a court appearance will only waste everyone's time and money. 

However, if the weighbridge proves your vehicle is over 3050Kg unladen, your husband can try entering a plea in mitigation that he believed he was acting legally, based on information from the vehicle brochure, which has since been proved incorrect.  I don't know if points for speeding are automatic, or whether the court has the power to levy a fine without the points, but it will surely be worthwhile finding out exactly where you do stand. 

In either event, I'd counsel against just waiting to see what happens.

[Don Madge]

See also http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-speed-limits.shtml

 

Don

[mco]

It never fails to amaze me, the information and helpful opinions that are given on this forum. Thanks for your support.

 

I will keep you fully up to date with what happens.

 

Carol

 

 

 

 

[Rainbow-Chasers]

The speed limit is set to your LADEN weight. Any vehicle under 2t/car derived car (such as escort) is set at the old standard limits.

 

from then up until 3.5t is classed as 10mph below EXCEPT motorways, and 30mph limit.

 

3.5t upwards drops again to lorry limits with a maximum of 50mph on motorways, 40 on a roads and dual carriageways.

 

BEWARE of roads 'without a physical barrier' dual carriageways without these are classed as a roads - even the cable barriers are not solid physical barriers. Do not fall foul of that! Also be aware of weight reactive speed cameras which can catch you out!

 

:-D

 

It is made alot clearer on our website, i will give a direct link if required later on to clarify it. It is a bit of a grey area which we had to really look into as we hire, we have a duty of care to customers to ensure they are furnished with the right limits!

[nightrider]

To get behind the wheel of a vehicle and go on the road is just like walking into a minefield, it seems to me that you need God or a damned good lawyer as a passenger. I have read all the previous posts and to be quite frank they baffle me.

[BGD]

Rainbow-Chasers' - 2008-12-03 10:56 PM

 

The speed limit is set to your LADEN weight. Any vehicle under 2t/car derived car (such as escort) is set at the old standard limits.

 

from then up until 3.5t is classed as 10mph below EXCEPT motorways, and 30mph limit.

 

3.5t upwards drops again to lorry limits with a maximum of 50mph on motorways, 40 on a roads and dual carriageways.

 

BEWARE of roads 'without a physical barrier' dual carriageways without these are classed as a roads - even the cable barriers are not solid physical barriers. Do not fall foul of that! Also be aware of weight reactive speed cameras which can catch you out!

 

:-D

 

It is made alot clearer on our website, i will give a direct link if required later on to clarify it. It is a bit of a grey area which we had to really look into as we hire, we have a duty of care to customers to ensure they are furnished with the right limits!

 

Hya Rainbow Chasers -

 

Sorry - but I don't think that "speed limit is set by LADEN weight" in the case here, for exactly the reasons we've been discussing above.

From all I've seen, the law makes a break-point in speed limits on single carriageway roads and dual carriageways based upon whether the vehicle is below or above 3050kgs UNLADEN weight.

 

If you have any source regulation documents which contradict all this stuff we've been quoting in ealier posts in this thread, it'd be very useful if you could share them.....

 

 

[Mike Chapman]

davenewell@home - 2008-12-03 6:03 AM

 

I wouldn't wait for it to go to court, I'd make that weighbridge visit a priority even if only to put your own mind at rest. Manufacturers brochure figures are notoriously inaccurate and if your unladen weight is over the 3050KG mark then the lower speed limit applies. Why wait till the court summons to find out?

 

D.

 

Or why not buy one of the Reich Wheel Weighers as stocked by Dave Newell leisure services and make guessing at axle weights a thing of the past. Come on Dave another sales opportunity lost? (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

Rainbow-Chasers' - 2008-12-03 10:56 PM The speed limit is set to your LADEN weight. Any vehicle under 2t/car derived car (such as escort) is set at the old standard limits. from then up until 3.5t is classed as 10mph below EXCEPT motorways, and 30mph limit. 3.5t upwards drops again to lorry limits with a maximum of 50mph on motorways, 40 on a roads and dual carriageways. BEWARE of roads 'without a physical barrier' dual carriageways without these are classed as a roads - even the cable barriers are not solid physical barriers. Do not fall foul of that! Also be aware of weight reactive speed cameras which can catch you out! :-D It is made alot clearer on our website, i will give a direct link if required later on to clarify it. It is a bit of a grey area which we had to really look into as we hire, we have a duty of care to customers to ensure they are furnished with the right limits!

I agree with DGD.  Please quote chapter and verse, because, apart from contradicting what everyone else thinks is the case, you post is, I'm afraid, somewhat less than comprehensively clear!