Booked for speeding

[mco]

It's now 39 days since Mike was given the speeding ticket and no summons has been issued yet.

 

The policeman told Mike that he had 28 days to pay the fine. If he hadn't paid after this time the case would go back to the policeman and then it would go to court. Mike said he would challenge it.

 

After Mike had checked the V5 and the relevent Road Traffic Act he phoned the policeman. He wasn't on duty so Mike left a message asking him to phone. He didn't return the call so Mike rang again, again he didn't return the call. The third time Mike rang he asked to speak to the policeman's senior officer. He wasn't on duty so Mike left a message explaining why he wanted to speak to him. The following evening the policeman rang Mike.

 

Mike referred him to the Road Traffic Act and told him the vehicles unladen weight, 2,912 kgs, according to the manufacturer, therefore he wasn't speeding and would have no hesitation in challenging him and defending himself in court. The policeman said he would look into it and get back to him. Up to now he hasn't.

 

We have legal cover included in our insurance so that if the matter came to court we wouldn't have to pay any fees. Mike certainly wouldn't go down without a fight. He has had a clean driving licence for over 40 years and is a careful and considerate driver.

 

He hasn't taken the van to the weighbridge yet but has every intention of doing so should it go to court.

 

 

[colin]

As someone above said, I'm not sure I would take it to weighbridge, you have manufacturers stated weight, the police have no record of the unladen weight at time of alledged offence.

[mco]

Yes that's true Colin.

I think your post above re the policeman not knowing the difference between a van and motorhome hits the nail on the head.

[davenewellhome]

I would still go to the weighbridge before any possibility of court action even if only to satisfy myself of the ACTUAL unladen weight of my vehicle. The troulbe with relying on manufacturers quoted figures is they are notoriously inaccurate and don't take into account any additions you may have like awning, towbar etc.

 

D.

[Mel B]

Excuse me if I'm being a little bit thick but, using the KISS scenario:

 

If the Police Officer didn't weight the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence, how can he know it was actually overweight? He has no evidence to support this other than him seeing a large vehicle and making an assumption, unfortunately though for him, an assumtion is not proof of guilt. Even if the motorhome is overweight now, there is nothing to prove that it was at the time when the Police Officer though it was. Isn't cast iron proof required to be able to secure a successful prosecution?

[colin]

davenewell@home - 2008-12-11 9:46 PM

 

I would still go to the weighbridge before any possibility of court action even if only to satisfy myself of the ACTUAL unladen weight of my vehicle. The troulbe with relying on manufacturers quoted figures is they are notoriously inaccurate and don't take into account any additions you may have like awning, towbar etc.

 

D.

I agree it would be a good idea to weight it, but I personaly would do it after any court case, after all if it was over 3050kg I'd have to plead guilty ;-)

[BGD]

Mel B - 2008-12-12 7:53 PM

 

Excuse me if I'm being a little bit thick but, using the KISS scenario:

 

If the Police Officer didn't weight the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence, how can he know it was actually overweight? He has no evidence to support this other than him seeing a large vehicle and making an assumption, unfortunately though for him, an assumtion is not proof of guilt. Even if the motorhome is overweight now, there is nothing to prove that it was at the time when the Police Officer though it was. Isn't cast iron proof required to be able to secure a successful prosecution?

 

 

 

Hi Mel - thought we'd sorta covered that earlier, but to recap....

 

Yes, it's just a suspicion.

Any charge by the Police is no more than formal notification of a suspicion.

The Police Officer reports to the person his suspicion of a breach of the Road Traffic Act (the one which says that a motorhome over 3050kgs unladen weight can't do more than 50 mph on a dual carriageway).

Unless the person has then pleaded guilty by filling in their bit of the form to that effect and paying the fine, his suspicion gets passed to the Crown Prosecution Service, who decide whether to press the suspicion (the "charge") in Court, who will test it.

If the CPS feel that there is sufficient evidence to have a reasonable chance of winning the court case, they can ask a court (in this case a Magistrates Court) to hear their evidence. The person then has the chance to refute that evidence.

The the Court decides on all the evidence heard from both sides, whether the prosecution convinced them, beyond reasonable doubt, that the alleged offence was indeed committed.

 

So there are two legal hurdles for the State to overcome, if the person says they are not guilty:

1. The Police have to convince the CPS that the case has a realistic chance of being won in court beyond reasonable doubt (without knowing what evidence the person might bring to court to refute this); and that bringing the case would be in the Public interest.

2. The CPS have to convince a court, in spite of all the evidence that the person might bring to the contrary, that the person was guilty of the alleged offence, beyond reasonable doubt (sometimes loosely referred to as an "80/20" test). Note: NOT "cast iron proof", but an 80% feeling having heard all the evidence from both sides that the offence was indeed committed.

 

 

 

(Even if found guilty in the "court of first instance" (in this case it would be a local magistrates court), if there is any error in law, or procedure, or legal precedent, then the person can appeal against the courts decision to the Crown Court.....but that's a whole different ballgame.)

[mco]

Mel B. The policeman is classing the motorhome as a goods vehicle and a goods vehicle is limited to 50 mph on an A class road if it's got a maximum laden weight of 3,500 kgs. On a goods vehicle unladen weight is of no significance.

 

This is where the problem arises ie. he is not taking into account that a motorhome is rated in a different way.

 

Carol

[BGD]

mco - 2008-12-13 12:09 AM

 

Mel B. The policeman is classing the motorhome as a goods vehicle and a goods vehicle is limited to 50 mph on an A class road if it's got a maximum laden weight of 3,500 kgs. On a goods vehicle unladen weight is of no significance.

 

This is where the problem arises ie. he is not taking into account that a motorhome is rated in a different way.

 

Carol

 

Carol - sorry, but I don't think that's right at all.

That's the mistake that many people have made.

 

Under the RTA it is UNLADEN weight that decides whether a motorhome can exceed 50mph on a dual carriageway.

It doesn't matter what "class" of vehicle it is; the rule covers all vehicles, and simply says if the vehicles unladen weight is over 3050kgs it can't legally be driven at above 50mph on a dual carriageway.

 

And that is exactly the problem. Everyone knows (or should!) what the maximum LADEN weight of their motorhome is - 'cos it's stamped on a plate on the chassis, but not what their UNLADEN weight is, as that will vary from vehicle to vehicle.

 

If you have a look at some of the earlier posts on this thread, we tracked down the actual wording of the Road Traffic Act, including its legal definition of "unladen weight", which is the thing that stops you driving your motorhome over 50mph on a dual carriageway if it is over 3050kgs.

[colin]

BGD - 2008-12-13 11:25 AM

Carol - sorry, but I don't think that's right at all.

That's the mistake that many people have made.

 

Under the RTA it is UNLADEN weight that decides whether a motorhome can exceed 50mph on a dual carriageway.

It doesn't matter what "class" of vehicle it is; the rule covers all vehicles, and simply says if the vehicles unladen weight is over 3050kgs it can't legally be driven at above 50mph on a dual carriageway.

 

And that is exactly the problem. Everyone knows (or should!) what the maximum LADEN weight of their motorhome is - 'cos it's stamped on a plate on the chassis, but not what their UNLADEN weight is, as that will vary from vehicle to vehicle.

 

If you have a look at some of the earlier posts on this thread, we tracked down the actual wording of the Road Traffic Act, including its legal definition of "unladen weight", which is the thing that stops you driving your motorhome over 50mph on a dual carriageway if it is over 3050kgs.

I don't think your correct with this info. As far as I'm aware, the only vans not covered by lower limits are car derived vans of less than 2000kg gross, I think the 3050kg only applies to mini buss' and motorhomes, at one time the presence of windows in the rear made the differance not sure if thats still the case

[Keithl]

Sorry Colin but I'm with BGD on this one.

I've recently been reading up all the relevant laws and agree that ANY vehicle with an UNLADEN weight over 3050kg is restricted to the lower speed limits.

Luckily our AT has an unladen weight in the brochure of well below 3050kg with a 90% full tank of fuel and driver so I'm OK.

If you're still in any doubt I suggest talking to the legal bods at any one of the motoring clubs as they should know.

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

Keithl - 2008-12-13 1:07 PM Sorry Colin but I'm with BGD on this one. I've recently been reading up all the relevant laws and agree that ANY vehicle with an UNLADEN weight over 3050kg is restricted to the lower speed limits. Luckily our AT has an unladen weight in the brochure of well below 3050kg with a 90% full tank of fuel and driver so I'm OK. If you're still in any doubt I suggest talking to the legal bods at any one of the motoring clubs as they should know. Keith.

But do bear two things in mind. 

First, brochures quote only a notional unladen eight, for which there is invariably a stated tolerance, typically +/- 5%.  Try adding 5% to the brochure figure and see how close you come to 3050Kg.  Also, take account of the fact that the brochure weights are non-contractual so, even if wrong, you have no come back against seller or manufacturer.  You might be able to kick up a stink if they claim compliance with BS EN 1646-2, otherwise probably not.

Second, it is the actual weight of the individual vehicle that counts.  Any accessories you have added, that are fixed to the van, all add to its unladen weight.  Solar panels, sat dishes, second batteries, bike racks, etc etc, all increase unladen weight.  The only way to know the actual unladen weight of your van, is to prepare it to the Road Traffic Acts definition of "unladen", and take it to a weighbridge.  To be able to prove the weight, you'd need to get a printed ticket, showing the vehicle registration number.

Ultimately, this is a simple matter of fact, and all the opinions in the world won't alter the facts.

[donna miller]

I've read all of this thread pretty closely as I have a friend in a similar position, except his dilema is concerning licencing, but I'll explain that later.

Bruce is right about the road traffic act refering to VEHICLES over 3050kg, in theory, this could very easily apply to any heavy car, eg limo or armoured car. In that case, the V5 will state it is a saloon or hatchback, and you would therefore assume you could travel at 70mph on the motorways etc. But you cannot, and it's all down to the unladen weight of the vehicle.

And this unfortunately is where a lot of you are making serious mistakes, you believe that because you have motorcaravan and PLG on the V5, this exempts you from, in this situation,lower speed limits, however, the body type on the V5 is for information purposes only and is there for easy identification of the vehicle, it means nothing else,the PLG entry is merely the taxation class, and defines which rate of duty we have to pay, if you are disabled this will show disabled. If you can get HGV as the taxation class, you will save a tenner on VED. But you can't have it both ways.

The V5 only states motorcaravan as the bodytype, it is not a get out clause for speed limits and licence requirements. The law refers specifically to vehicles because there are so many variations in use, M/homes being one of them, your van is built on a Fiat/Ford/Mercedes base vehicle, if it is plated at 3500kg then you should be safely within the 3050kg unladen weight category imposed in law. You do not however have exemptions just because it is a motorhome, so please don't make that mistake.

 

The situation I mentioned earlier, concerns a friend, who rather arrogantly ignored advice from myself and the local copper regarding his licence entitlement to drive a 10500kg American m/home, he has gone down the route that his RV does not carry goods so he doesn't need an LGV licence, he will not listen or take advice that his licence permits him only to drive a VEHICLE up to and including 7500kg laden weight, It matters not whether it's a goods carrying vehicle, it's down to the weight of the vehicle.

 

It would appear that there is a large amount of RV owners who have been telling him that he can drive this10500kg vehicle on a normal licence, simply because it says motorcaravan in the body type section on the V5.

He and his buddies will not budge in this know-all stance and won't listen that if they are involved in an accident, their insurance will be invalid because they do not hold the relevant licence to drive a vehicle in that class.

For 9 months I have been pleading with him to simply take his class C test, and cover his back. After taking advice from members of another m/home forum, again he says that he doesn't need to, because if I look at the catagories on the back of a licence, Cat C is for a lorry, and not an RV. You just cant win can you, you would have thought that as I have held what was a HGV class 1 for 25 years, a CPC in road transport, and my own operators licence, that I would have a tiniest fragment of knowledge in this, but apparently if you drive an overwidth, overweight American RV, then the licencing and C&U regs do not apply to you.

 

Anyway Mike, take the advice from Bruce and the others, get your van weighed, even if it is for your own peace of mind and future reference, for the purposes of this alleged offence, forget about having a motorhome and concentrate on the legislation that will go in your favour in respect of vehicle (regardless of bodytype or taxation class) weight.

And don't forget, If you are relying on the UW issue, a court could order the van to be taken to a weighbridge and base their decision on the weighbridge ticket, so make sure it's under 3050 before you go down that line of defence.

I've just read Brian's post, and would strongly recommend you take note of that as well, It's fine a converter giving weights to you, but it's the actual weight that matters.

 

Good luck anyway, and keep us informed.

[mco]

Bruce. Every unladen Transit van would be miles under the 3,050 kgs so this situation would never arise because the police would never pull anyone up if there was no difference between a goods vehicle and a motorhome.

 

This is certainly an interesting subject and one that affects most motorhome drivers.

 

Until Mike is issued with a summons we are basing our information on what is stated in MMM each month ( above the second hand price guide ) and from a similar case that was highlighted a little while ago that did in fact go to court in Perthshire, where the policeman was proved to be wrong and the case was dismissed.

 

It goes without saying that if a summons is issued then legal advice will be sought.

 

Carol

[donna miller]

mco - 2008-12-13 5:07 PM

 

#1........Bruce. Every unladen Transit van would be miles under the 3,050 kgs so this situation would never arise because the police would never pull anyone up if there was no difference between a goods vehicle and a motorhome.

 

This is certainly an interesting subject and one that affects most motorhome drivers.

 

#2........Until Mike is issued with a summons we are basing our information on what is stated in MMM each month ( above the second hand price guide ) and from a similar case that was highlighted a little while ago that did in fact go to court in Perthshire, where the policeman was proved to be wrong and the case was dismissed.

 

 

 

Carol

 

Carol, I can't help getting the impression that you are taking peoples advice in the wrong way, and you appear to be rather ungrateful for the time and effort people have taken to help you out.

 

In respect to your copied posting, can I make the following points...

 

#1 How can you compare an unladen transit with a motorhome, how many Transits have the following, fridge,cooker,heating system,toilet,awning,beds,wardrobes,cupboards, spare batteries, aircon units,satellite dishes,overhead lockers.

Take all these out of your van and weigh them as separate items, you will be very suprised at the weight involved.

 

#2 Basing your defence to a possible charge on a weight given in a motorhome magazine is, to say the least, very naieve, how do you know that your van has the exact same fittings as the one listed. Two vans owned by different people will invariably have different specs, alloy wheels, full cooker instead of just a hob etc.

 

The folks on here may not have the legal expertise you say you will seek, however, a great many of us have extensive experience in various fields,and are willing to pass that on to a fellow motorhomer. All the advice we have given you has been FOC and we've researched various aspects of the RTA and C&U regs, your legal team (if employed) will charge you the earth for the very same info.

[davenewellhome]

colin - 2008-12-12 10:20 PM

 

davenewell@home - 2008-12-11 9:46 PM

 

I would still go to the weighbridge before any possibility of court action even if only to satisfy myself of the ACTUAL unladen weight of my vehicle. The troulbe with relying on manufacturers quoted figures is they are notoriously inaccurate and don't take into account any additions you may have like awning, towbar etc.

 

D.

I agree it would be a good idea to weight it, but I personaly would do it after any court case, after all if it was over 3050kg I'd have to plead guilty ;-)

 

Well I'd do it now, simply because you can't mount a defence if you yourself don't know the ACTUAL unladen weight of YOUR van. Waiting till you get a summons to court and then weighing your van to find that you're over the 3050 by lets say 5KGs would be a bit of a bummer in my mind.

 

Knowledge is power.

 

D.

[colin]

Keithl - 2008-12-13 1:07 PM

 

Sorry Colin but I'm with BGD on this one.

I've recently been reading up all the relevant laws and agree that ANY vehicle with an UNLADEN weight over 3050kg is restricted to the lower speed limits.

Luckily our AT has an unladen weight in the brochure of well below 3050kg with a 90% full tank of fuel and driver so I'm OK.

If you're still in any doubt I suggest talking to the legal bods at any one of the motoring clubs as they should know.

Keith.

 

Thats not what I meant, FOR VANS (not motorhomes or minibuss'), the lower limits apply UNLESS they are car derived and do not exceed 2000kg gross.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/vanspeedlimits

 

 

[Keithl]

Thanks for the link Colin, I now understand what you were trying to say - namely that ALL vans are subject to the lower speed limit unless they are 'car derived'.

I wonder if in the case of the original post (concerning Mike I think) that the police assumed this also applies to Motor Homes as they are usually based on larger vans or van chassis?

This might explain the need to have your MH registered correctly as a 'Motor Caravan' to prove its exemption.

Keith.

[BGD]

Keithl - 2008-12-13 6:44 PM

 

Thanks for the link Colin, I now understand what you were trying to say - namely that ALL vans are subject to the lower speed limit unless they are 'car derived'.

I wonder if in the case of the original post (concerning Mike I think) that the police assumed this also applies to Motor Homes as they are usually based on larger vans or van chassis?

This might explain the need to have your MH registered correctly as a 'Motor Caravan' to prove its exemption.

Keith.

 

Please guys, try to grasp the key issue here and not get distracted by red herrings.

 

What the vehicle is registered as on its V5 has NOTHING AT ALL to do with any speed limitation.

That description drives the VED taxation class.

 

REGARDLESS of the description of your motorhome on a V5 document, the Motor Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations 1986 apply to ALL motor vehicles.

The Road Traffic Act, and subsequent regulations state that if the Unladen Weight (to be cmputed as defined in the MVC & U regs) of any (ie ANY) vehicle exceeds 3050kgs, then that vehicle is subject to the lower (eg 50 instead of 60) speed limits.

 

It matters not a jot what your motorhomes Gross/Maximum Vehicle Weight (MAM) is plated as, nor what it is descrbed as on its V5.

It is the 3050kgs limit on "Unladen Weight" that the speed limit law refers to.

 

 

[nightrider]

BGD - 2008-12-13 8:36 PM

 

Keithl - 2008-12-13 6:44 PM

 

Thanks for the link Colin, I now understand what you were trying to say - namely that ALL vans are subject to the lower speed limit unless they are 'car derived'.

I wonder if in the case of the original post (concerning Mike I think) that the police assumed this also applies to Motor Homes as they are usually based on larger vans or van chassis?

This might explain the need to have your MH registered correctly as a 'Motor Caravan' to prove its exemption.

Keith.

 

So the moral of this story is.... if you are not sure, keep to the lower speed limit of 50 MPH?

Please guys, try to grasp the key issue here and not get distracted by red herrings.

 

What the vehicle is registered as on its V5 has NOTHING AT ALL to do with any speed limitation.

That description drives the VED taxation class.

 

REGARDLESS of the description of your motorhome on a V5 document, the Motor Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations 1986 apply to ALL motor vehicles.

The Road Traffic Act, and subsequent regulations state that if the Unladen Weight (to be cmputed as defined in the MVC & U regs) of any (ie ANY) vehicle exceeds 3050kgs, then that vehicle is subject to the lower (eg 50 instead of 60) speed limits.

 

It matters not a jot what your motorhomes Gross/Maximum Vehicle Weight (MAM) is plated as, nor what it is descrbed as on its V5.

It is the 3050kgs limit on "Unladen Weight" that the speed limit law refers to.

 

[Rainbow-Chasers]

All info i have had comes from DSA, DVLA and VOSA. The reason the law mentions laden weights which seems to confuse everyone, is because it is simpler and safer to take that weight as a solid rule, and not change your speed depending on your load.

 

To try to simplify it is will get a bit hypothetical. Lets just say you have a van which weighs dead on 2000kg, but can take an extra 1300kg in load.

 

Under the weight laws, unloaded you would not be affected but with a load you would!

 

The powers that be do not accept any tolerances, and cannot see if you are loaded or not therefore the presumption is made that you are, which is deemed safer.

 

If you are unsure, just stick to the lower limit and don't worry about it! The pure fact that everyone is confused, means the officer that stops you may be too - so stay on the safe side!

[colin]

BGD - 2008-12-13 11:25 AM

 

It doesn't matter what "class" of vehicle it is; the rule covers all vehicles, and simply says if the vehicles unladen weight is over 3050kgs it can't legally be driven at above 50mph on a dual carriageway.

Just to clarify why I posted about vans, I was concerned this statement may have mislead people to believe any van under 3050kg unladen could driven at higher limit, I should have edited BGD's post to highlight that one issue.

[mco]

No Donna I am most certainly not ungrateful for the helpful comments and advice being given on this thread. Please refer back to page 1 and posts 3&4 of mine.

 

Reading back over my posts I can't see where you get the idea from and I find the suggestion offensive.

 

Hopefully when this business is sorted out we will all know where we stand regarding the law on speed limits for motorhomes.

[donna miller]

Well I'm sorry you find that offensive, it certainly wasn't meant to be, but if you look back at your last couple of posts, maybe you will see why I got that impression.

 

Bruce has spent a great deal of time collecting facts, including contacting a friend in the UK who was a police officer. And your last post in answer to his info, was a rather flippant remark about Transit vans never being stopped if his information was correct.

 

Brian has quoted RTA and C&U regs for you, and yet you state that you will base your thoughts on a bit of information printed in MMM, which I'm quite confident in saying that somewhere in that section you will find a disclaimer that figures quoted are for guidlines only.

 

After all, if MMM listings showed that the mpg figures for your van were actuall higher than you were achieving, would you base a legal case on that information, I'm sure that the lawyers involved with MMM are perfectly aware that situations like this arise, and they will ensure that any information they publish could not leave them open to claims.

 

My own input was added after reading through the very same legislation as others, plus my own experiences with VOSA, who despite popular belief, have the powers to get involved in anything to do with any vehicle on the road, and not just commercial, and it is VOSA the courts will ask advice from, not the editor of MMM.

 

Once again, I wish you luck if charges are brought against you, I will offer no further contribution to this thread.

 

 

 

 

[parkmoy]

I'm constantly amazed at how easily people take offence and fall out so easily on this forum even when apparently non contentious subjects are being discussed. Ah well, there's nowt so strange as folks *-)