Caring socialism or wasteful socialism?

[BGD]

From this mornings UK paper (sorry, it's the Daily mail, but the figures are from the Government, released as an answer to a Parliamentary question):

 

"140,000 households are now pocketing more in benefits than the average take-home wage.

The families are living on handouts worth in excess of £20,000 a year, official figures show.

The enormous payouts dwarf the incomes of millions of hard-working families who are struggling to cope with the recession and the rising cost of living.

The average salary is £25,100 before tax, but after deductions it shrinks to £19,126. In contrast, state benefits are tax-free.

A worker would have to earn £27,000 a year to take home more than £20,000."

 

 

Question: are these levels of handouts a demonstration of a socially responsible and caring State, or of socialist waste?

 

 

[Rapido-lass]

From my own personal situation, it seems that if you work hard, pay your taxes, when you are unfortunate to find yourself in need of help, you get very little. You aren't entitled to all the benefits that non-workers who have never paid a penny get.

 

My Christmas present was redundancy with no pay off. I get none of the benefits that I have been paying in and supporting others who can get it. It's still us and them in all groups. Because you have worked and fallen on hard times, you still seem to be penalised, talked down to like a piece of s**t, humiliated - I could go on, however, on the other side those who won't work seem to be greeted with respect, not humiliated and given more benefits with no struggle at all - great eh?

 

I just hope that I can find something quickly to earn a wage and not have to be humiliated any longer. It's only by the grace of god that some of these people with attitudes are on the other side of the desk with a job that we are paying for!

 

[Guest Tracker]

Dot is working a short term contract as an Approved Social Worker with Swansea Social Services and the abuse of the system by claimants and the apathy of the leaders that she is seeing is nothing short of a national disgrace.

 

People with real mental and other health problems - mainly elderly and mainly having worked and contributed for many years - who are in real and genuine need are having to go without income or any home support because of 'budget shortages'. It's scandalous.

 

Meanwhile druggies and dropouts - mainly younger people who have never worked or contributed get money thrown at them in ever increasing amounts simply because they know how to milk the system and know what to say and how to present themselves to get the most.

 

Dot is so incensed at the injustice that she is in correspondence with the Welsh Assembly and with our own Westminster MP. These politicians have at least acknowledged that the system is in need of drastic overhaul and they accept that it has become 'budget led' and 'politically correct led' and not as it should be which is 'needs led'.

 

However whether any political party has the balls to cut back on payments to generations of experienced wasters who know all about their rights but bugger all about their responsibilities and start directing funds towards the genuine who do work when work is available and only need help when they lose their job and/or their home is at risk through no fault of their own is entirely another matter.

 

It is not all down to New Labour as successive governments have passed the buck for 40 years or more but this government's policy of encouraging people to spend money and then dropping them in the mire when the very predictable, to some of us at least, inevitable disaster strikes is also a national disgrace.

 

Heaven alone knows where we go from here but it seems to me that we need some kind of national restructuring to collect taxes from those who can afford it as opposed to the current bias toward the lower paid paying proportionately more tax overall than the higher paid, together with benefits being directed at the genuine needy and deserving rather than the politically correct.

 

However quite how you get turkeys to vote for Christmas is another matter?

[omidknight]

Bruce - are you sure benefits are tax free?

 

 

[ROON]

Maybe not quite on same lines, but why when I was 59years and 364 days old was I entitled to Carer's Allowance but the following day was not entitled to it despite my pensionable age, if anything, making it more difficult to do the same job?

 

The whole system of benefits and allowances is so complicated only those too stupid to work are clever enough to know how to claim every penny they are entitled to and the rest of the needy miss out. I know of people classed as homeless (through no fault of their own) and it breaks my heart to see them struggle, so a system is definitely needed but it will be interesting to see how they 'reverse' the current situation.

 

There is the problem, as always, that the genuinely sick or needy - especially with 'invisible' health problems such as mental health, will not get the help they need because so much time, energy and money is going on the not so genuine.

 

 

[ROON]

Sorry, too late to edit.... when I said 'too stupid to work' I was being sarcastic meaning those who don't want to work but make out they know nothing..... would hate to upset anyone especially when so many are suffering with all the redundancies now.... oops. xx

[nightrider]

I know a few people who are on the dole, some are genuinely unemployed and some of them are professionly unemployed, but none of them are in reciept of 3 or 4 hundred pounds a week.

If any system can be abused it will be abused, the present system needs a drastic overhaul, I know a guy who is claiming disability allowence for alcoholism, the trouble is, he is not an alcoholic before he goes to see his doctor for another sick note he has a few pints first then breathes all over his doctor, sick note signed no problem.

[malc d]

knight of the road - 2008-12-29 7:36 PM

 

I know a few people who are on the dole, some are genuinely unemployed and some of them are professionly unemployed, but none of them are in reciept of 3 or 4 hundred pounds a week.

If any system can be abused it will be abused, the present system needs a drastic overhaul, I know a guy who is claiming disability allowence for alcoholism, the trouble is, he is not an alcoholic before he goes to see his doctor for another sick note he has a few pints first then breathes all over his doctor, sick note signed no problem.

 

Maybe that's why the Daily Mail didn't tell us the average handout per PERSON.

( per household makes it sound so much worse )

;-)

[Guest peter]

About right Malc. Why let the facts get in the way of a good bit of Sh*t stirring. >:-)

[nightrider]

Prior to the present economic recession, people signing unemployed could be broken down into different groups, people who had lost their jobs for whatever reason and were genuinely seeking work, and those who through no fault of their own have learning difficulties and cannot hold down a regular job.

Then you have the fit able bodied types who think that they are fly in evading/avoiding work, they recieve the welfare benefits that they are theoretically entitled to, but what do they do with that money? it usually ends up in the pub landlords till and they live a hand to mouth existence.

They have no aspirations, no quality of life, if that is the kind of life that they want so be it, not the kind of life I want, I like the feel of money in my pocket, have a few quid in the bank and enjoy the nice things in life.

All these things are the result of working, the times I have heard these type of people say "I wouldn't get out of bed for less than a ton a week" I'll get out of my bed to earn a fiver, better in my pocket than someone else's, even in this present situation there is money to be made.

I have always been a soldier of fortune, never relied on a company to pay my wages, if you are flexible, able to multi-task there is always someone out there that will pay you for your skills.

I am officially retired and have never drawn a penny piece from my state pension that is paid into my bank every month I just go out and do my job every day, whenever I look at a street, a house or a garden all I see is pound notes.

[donna miller]

knight of the road - 2008-12-29 7:36 PM

 

I know a few people who are on the dole, some are genuinely unemployed and some of them are professionly unemployed, but none of them are in reciept of 3 or 4 hundred pounds a week.

If any system can be abused it will be abused, the present system needs a drastic overhaul, I know a guy who is claiming disability allowence for alcoholism, the trouble is, he is not an alcoholic before he goes to see his doctor for another sick note he has a few pints first then breathes all over his doctor, sick note signed no problem.

 

They may not be getting £300 a week in their hands, but by the time you add up the council tax, rent, free this and free that, they will certainly be very close.

Secondly , if you know this person is a fraud, then report him to the relevant authorities.

[nightrider]

donna miller - 2008-12-30 5:01 PM

 

knight of the road - 2008-12-29 7:36 PM

 

I know a few people who are on the dole, some are genuinely unemployed and some of them are professionly unemployed, but none of them are in reciept of 3 or 4 hundred pounds a week.

If any system can be abused it will be abused, the present system needs a drastic overhaul, I know a guy who is claiming disability allowence for alcoholism, the trouble is, he is not an alcoholic before he goes to see his doctor for another sick note he has a few pints first then breathes all over his doctor, sick note signed no problem.[/quote

 

donna,

I have mentioned before that no way would I grass someone up who is signing on the dole while working, that is the job of the welfare benefits agency.

Apart from that to be found out that you have grassed someone up your life expectancy could be as little as five minutes, failing that your quality of life would be zilch, I am not talking about a sleepy little hamlet here, I am talking of Manchester AKA known as Gunchester.

 

They may not be getting £300 a week in their hands, but by the time you add up the council tax, rent, free this and free that, they will certainly be very close.

Secondly , if you know this person is a fraud, then report him to the relevant authorities.

[omidknight]

self preservation society

[BGD]

KOTR:

 

Just a thought.....would you "grass them up" if they were stealing this money from you each and every week?

 

Or from your children?

 

 

 

[nightrider]

BGD - 2008-12-30 7:57 PM

 

KOTR:

 

Just a thought.....would you "grass them up" if they were stealing this money from you each and every week?

 

Or from your children?

 

 

 

BGD,

You are talking about a completely different thing, in instances like this you take on the stance of the three wise monkey's, hear all, see all, say nothing. The only circumstances that I would grass someone up would be for child abuse, animal cruelty or abuse of the elderly.

Manchester has a heavy duty gang culture that the streetwise guy knows about but steers clear of, make waves, make your name known in the wrong circles and you are heading for disaster, your question is hypothetical, would you grass someone up in these circumstances?

I wouldn't for fear of my name being exposed.

Let those people who are employed to deal with these problems sort things out, if you fancy yourself as the caped crusader make your way to Manchester where you will find plenty to go at for your short life expectancy.

[nightrider]

The government have made it easier for the dole diddlers to fiddle the system, the moneymen have made millions for themselves and in doing so have dropped the rest of us in the s*** so let the government sort things out themselves, and not put full page advertisements in the papers exhorting ordinary citizens to denounce their neighbours.

If the dole diddler were to bank his ill gotten gains I might have something to say, but no sooner a dole diddler cashes his giro that dole money is back in the system, exactly what the government wants the public to do..........spend money, whats yer problem bud?

[CliveH]

Interesting subject. Diddling the system I mean. I have no doubt many do it and the excess's have been seen on TV when that large female MP took some work dodgers to task. The arrogance of one bloke who clearly had no intention of ever working was simply numbing. It really did make me want to just pack it all in and emigrate.

 

But why would a political party that relies on the block vote of these dodgers want to rock the boat? That is the problem.

 

Locally here we have little unemployment but we do have a distinct problem for youngsters with housing. Renting is hugely expensive and buying is just a pipedream for most.

 

So there seems to be a career path of having at least 3 kids before age 20 and then you get a nice house supplied by the council and if you are unmarried and have no partner supposedly living with you, these young girls get their rent and all their bills paid plus a very nice hand out from the state that allows a life style better than my two lads who are well qualified and have worked hard every day since leaving education.

 

So as well as me feeling hacked off as I approach retirement, my two lads feel much the same.

 

So is UK Ltd. both in a credit crunch and a moral crunch?

 

I think it is.

 

With the government debt we all now have thanks to Gordon's cock up, I can see huge problems and anger erupting against those of a take take take opinion. Those who have genuinely lost their jobs are going to react against being told they receive nothing from the State because of this or that rule when they see people who have never worked carrying on as though nothing had happened.

 

As for me I am making sure my money is circumventing the tax system as much as possible. We are having some plumbing work done in the house and normally I would just pay the bill when the invoice is presented.

 

Not now though. I asked the chap for a cash in hand price and it was half of what was on the estimate. So that is how it is being done - he gets paid but between us we cut out the tax man who in my opinion has abdicated the right to take money from me because of the stupidity of how my tax £ is wasted generally and specifically given to people who could work but choose not too.

 

No doubt the Government spin adverts will label such antics as being "dodgy", but one thing for certain, whilst the main economy falters, the black economy will be cranking up a gear.

 

[nightrider]

Although this government is not wholly to blame for the current financial climate, this and former Tory governments are both responsible for a lot that ails this country's domestic situation.

We have an ongrowing population that have been neglected, toddlers in your street a few years ago are now young adults, where are they going to live?

They cannot afford to buy a house, they cannot afford one in the private sector the rents and the deposits required are out of reach, it is nigh on impossible to secure a council flat or house tenancy.

The quickest way to get a council house is to become pregnant, the low rent social housing market has been sadly neglected, local councils have been selling off their spare land to speculators who build houses for sale at prices far beyond the reach of youngsters starting out in life.

People in their 30's and 40's are having to stay at home with their elderly parents due to not being able to buy or rent.

The Tory right to buy scheme where you could buy your council house at a discount was in theory good, but the councils could not keep the monies raised to build further social housing on their spare land the money went straight into the government coffers.

I have long held the belief that there is a council house mentality in as much that council tenants not having a stake in the area where they live, have no regard for the area and will turn a blind eye to vandalism etc.

The proof of the pudding to that statement is to check out council estates where there is a high degree of owner/occupiers those estate are well looked after.

The whole country is now topsy-turvy with all the job losses, middle income families who at one time would have been horrified at the thought of living in a council house are going to be glad of one when they are repossessed because of redundancy.

Lose your job and unable to secure another one your house in on the line, if the mortgage people inform you of imminant repossession, your next course of action is to apply to the council for accommodation they will only rehouse you just before or on the date you have been given by the mortgage people to vacate the premises.

If you have kids, and if you are lucky you may be given a house or you may be put into a hostel, assumming you can't bunk in with friends or relatives or find suitable privately rented property.

I can assure you that any council property will not be a palace, more like a pigstye, be warned, this is reality it is happening now.

When you are on the dole and in dire straits all thoughts of the legailty of signing on and doing a bit of cash in the hand work go through the door, it is sink or swim and every man for himself.

Ps marital separations and divorces are now climbing steadily due to the wives of big earners fleeing the coop now that the money is not flowing as much, a bleak future innit?

 

[donna miller]

KOTR

 

All benefit fraud helplines are anonymous to use.

Having been bought up in the inner city areas of Coventry, you can't tell me owt about gang culture.

So with all due respect, why do you complain about someone fraudulently claiming benefit, then say you wont do anything about it.

 

The reason these cheating scum get away with it, is because they know they can. And the more people that ignore it, the more scumbags will try it on.

 

No offence intended, but you say you would report a child abuser and various other crimes, but not this one, how can you be so morally selective.

[nightrider]

donna miller - 2008-12-31 4:54 PM

 

KOTR

 

All benefit fraud helplines are anonymous to use.

Having been bought up in the inner city areas of Coventry, you can't tell me owt about gang culture.

So with all due respect, why do you complain about someone fraudulently claiming benefit, then say you wont do anything about it.

 

The reason these cheating scum get away with it, is because they know they can. And the more people that ignore it, the more scumbags will try it on.

 

No offence intended, but you say you would report a child abuser and various other crimes, but not this one, how can you be so morally selective.

 

Donna,

With regard to making anonymous phone calls to the welfare benefits people I leave that to moral crusaders such as yourself, the word grass is not a part of my vocabulary.

Have you "grassed" anyone up? I dont know what your marital or work status is whether you yourself are working and have a husband bringing in a wage, but what would you do assumming you had to claim the dole and was struggling financially, would you dismiss the offer of a little cash in the hand work? and would you like to be referred to as in your words a cheating scumbag? a scumbag to me is someone who mugs an old lady for her pension or someone who breaks into someones house.

Can you honestly tell me that someone who was perhaps in middle management earning a good salary prior to being made redundant reduced to £60.50 per week dole money would not leap at the chance to earn a few quid extra cash on the QT?

Over the near and distant future a lot of peoples attitudes are going to change dramatically when fighting for survival.

Ps I am not as you say complaining about people on the dole doing a bit on the side, but I do understand their predicament.

[donna miller]

 

Whoah, steady on fella,

 

Firstly, I am no moral crusader, and no, I have never "grassed " anyone up, as you put it. I work hard in my own (and hubby's) business, and I object to freeloaders.

 

Secondly, you should re-read your original post, you made a point that "you know a guy" who is claiming disability allowance for being an alcoholic, and highlighted the way he fooled his doctor, people like this are the reason people with real disabilities are having to attend meetings to prove their disability, and in many cases, losing their allowance.you did not mention someone on the dole doing a bit on the side, there is a hell of a difference there.

 

Thirdly, why do you and so many others keep defending upper/middle management/ middle class people who lose their jobs and work on the side to supplement their state handouts ? is it really ok for that class of people to do it, but not for the state income, single parent from a council estate, who's claiming benefit whilst cleaning the local pub.

 

 

 

 

[nightrider]

donna miller - 2008-12-31 10:19 PM

 

 

Whoah, steady on fella,

 

Firstly, I am no moral crusader, and no, I have never "grassed " anyone up, as you put it. I work hard in my own (and hubby's) business, and I object to freeloaders.

 

Secondly, you should re-read your original post, you made a point that "you know a guy" who is claiming disability allowance for being an alcoholic, and highlighted the way he fooled his doctor, people like this are the reason people with real disabilities are having to attend meetings to prove their disability, and in many cases, losing their allowance.you did not mention someone on the dole doing a bit on the side, there is a hell of a difference there.

 

Thirdly, why do you and so many others keep defending upper/middle management/ middle class people who lose their jobs and work on the side to supplement their state handouts ? is it really ok for that class of people to do it, but not for the state income, single parent from a council estate, who's claiming benefit whilst cleaning the local pub.

 

 

 

 

Donna,

I am not defending upper/middle class people, I am just saying that I am not bothered by anyone that signs on and perhaps does a little cash in the hand work while signing on.

I much prefer the tax payers money going to them rather than it be spent on bombs and bullets to wipe people out.