Brian Kirby Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 BrianR - 2009-01-04 10:19 AM As an (ex) Finance Director in a major European appliance manufacturing group, you can ask me, and I will tell you that it is not "lunatic" to stay out of the Eurozone, and many of my colleagues in the zone wish that they were outside it. To avoid false assumptions being made, I shold add that the Euro existed before I retired. Now you've puzzled me. What are the business advantages of remaining outside the Euro, as opposed to being in? I should have thought that having a more stable currency must make both major investment planning, and export sales strategies much simpler. Where is the advantage in a currency that a) has generally been falling against the Euro since its introduction but b) does so unpredictably and at times rises? Any export venture carries some currency risk, but surely some stability is beneficial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niton Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 So if we did go into the Euro what rate would we settle for that did not have an adverse affect on our economy? Italy has always suffered by ging into the Euro at too higher rate and is now considering leaving the Euro as Ireland and Greece. We have had some experience of being under the influence of Europe when we were in the ERM and look where that got us. As far as I can see there are no real advantages for joining the Euro as it restricts us too much. We can see this in Ireland at the moment. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-01-04 3:59 PM Now you've puzzled me. What are the business advantages of remaining outside the Euro, as opposed to being in? I should have thought that having a more stable currency must make both major investment planning, and export sales strategies much simpler. Where is the advantage in a currency that a) has generally been falling against the Euro since its introduction but b) does so unpredictably and at times rises? Any export venture carries some currency risk, but surely some stability is beneficial? I am also puzled that the pound has fallen against the Euro. All the aformentioned reasoning makes little sense to me as our currency is not the only one that has fallen, what heavy borrowing has Norway made to make their currency fall at exactly the same rate against the Euro and retain parity with the Pound Sterling? Why has the South African curruncy remained at exactly the same exchange rate with the Pound Sterling at the start of 2009 as it was at the start of 2008? Why has the Canadian Doller remained constant with the pound? Surely the bitch about overborrowing does not apply to these other currencies, or does it? It makes no sense to me other than Germany and France for their own benefit are keeping the Euro artificially high at the expense of some other struggling member states and if that is the case will we see a sudden dramatic fall? Brian mentions a 'more stable currency' but it must be remembered it is only stable for some of the member states some others are being throttled by not being able to take their own actions to ward off their problems. I don't think now, or for that matter ever, will be the right time for us to join the common currency any more than it was right to join the ERM that we eventually had to withdraw from for the same reasons. Under a Tory government as well as I recall, with the current Tory leader (Cameron) being one of the advisors that put us into that unholy mess. Just my opinion as usual! Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Bring back gold sovereigns, worth their weight in gold! I tried to buy some today, they are all sold out, I wonder why? Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 niton, the unrest in Greece has nothing to do with being in the Euro Zone, but more to do with the police shooting a teenage boy and then blaming him. Even the Greek Government accept it was the cause and have promised to bring the police officers to trial and attempt to cleanse the police of its' corrupt elements. But to get back on track, I know other people have asked these questions and no one seems to know the answers, but here goes Just where has all this money gone? Where is the money coming from to borrow more to prop up the banking system? Why can we afford to subsidise the banks but not the Post Office? Why do the governments listen to "financial experts" about which businesses and financial systems to prop up when it is those "experts" that got us into this mess in the first place? Discuss please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Patricia - 2009-01-03 8:08 PM malc d - 2009-01-03 7:27 PM Patricia - 2009-01-03 4:58 PM Could someone please enlighten as to exactly which wholly British, i.e. no foreign parts at all, manufactured items we actually do still sell to euro based countries? Or in Britain itself for that matter. I'm puzzled by that too. Just what do we export in any quantity ? ( Not including holidaymakers of course ) :-( Will some person explain to me why, if anything priced in Pounds is so cheap in the Euro-Zone now ( ie Swift Motorhomes, Autotrail (owned by trigano so, not a good example), Autosleeper) etc., How come they aren't 'tooling up' stripped out (no cooker etc.,) Models to sell to 'Johnny Euro-Foreigner' at what are now vastly reduced prices ??? every black cloud CAN have a cupra-nickel lining surely ?? OR am I missing something ?:D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 All the states in America manage on one currency, the chinese similarly, and the Indian continent as far as I know so why not the European countries ? Forget the past there's no mileage in that, the next 100 years are the most important. We are neither a country nor nation of power any more. Like it or not you and I have no control so look to the future not dwell on past memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Rayjsj - 2009-01-04 9:25 PM Patricia - 2009-01-03 8:08 PM malc d - 2009-01-03 7:27 PM Patricia - 2009-01-03 4:58 PM Could someone please enlighten as to exactly which wholly British, i.e. no foreign parts at all, manufactured items we actually do still sell to euro based countries? Or in Britain itself for that matter. I'm puzzled by that too. Just what do we export in any quantity ? ( Not including holidaymakers of course ) :-( Will some person explain to me why, if anything priced in Pounds is so cheap in the Euro-Zone now ( ie Swift Motorhomes, Autotrail (owned by trigano so, not a good example), Autosleeper) etc., How come they aren't 'tooling up' stripped out (no cooker etc.,) Models to sell to 'Johnny Euro-Foreigner' at what are now vastly reduced prices ??? every black cloud CAN have a cupra-nickel lining surely ?? OR am I missing something ?:D :D Reasons why the the Brit Companies ain't doing that will I assume include: The'yre losing a bucketfull of cash every day, and will have been for months and months, as sales of their existing RHD models in the Uk go through the floor, but their overhead costs remain virtually unaltered. They won't have the cash available to retool or redesign, and the now -timrous banks won't extand further credit (borrowing) facilities to them if the bank doesn't see a rapid and realistic return on that investment....they'll likely view it as just throwing good money after bad. I assume, to design, test get type approval for/TUV approval for and then launch a new model takes many months, if not years; and the cost is likely to be many hundreds of thousands of pounds, before you even start to make a penny back on your first actual sale. This might be OK, if you have the cash to burn on such R & D long term investment (and you thought it was the very best use of that avialbale cash to provide the best return-on-capital for your shareholders), but not if you've burnt most of any cash reserves or existing facilities just in keeping your factory open and staggering along over the past 6 months. I assume also that any such project would need contracts and specs to be agreed with whichever vehicle supplier you proposed to use as the LHD base vehicle platform for your vehicle. Not a one-months sort of process I guess. I also guess that you'd need to set up a Europe-wide distributor network for your new UK model. And on any sales you'd have to convert the euro value back to sterling, with the associated currency conversion costs of that accounting process. Then I assume also that many of the component parts/sub-assemblies may well be sourced from eurozone countries anyway, which will have to be paid for in euros (which they will have to buy in order to pay those invoices) at the lousy exchange rate, and with the currency conversion costs of doing so. Then, even when such a LHD "Continental" model was finally approved, distributor contracts negotiated and signed off by lawyers, and training agreed and carried out, demo models manufactured, tested, apparoved, and delivered to distributors, along with brochures, manuals etc witten and produced in French, and Spanish, and German, and Italian etc; they will be trying to begin selling into an already overcrowded market place of established, well-branded European Motorhome manufacturers, in economies that, whilst they may not be bombing as badly as the UK, are nonetheless still entering serious recession. The consumers in those countries, just like the UK, are cancelling any big-ticket "non-essential" spends....on things like new Motorhomes....as they too have fears about job security etc in the coming months/years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niton Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 The killing of the teenager in Greece and the general unrest can be traced back to Greece joining the single currency. Their economy is in trouble and because they are stuck in the Euro there is little they can do about it. This is also happening in Italy and is also affecting Ireland Spain and Portugal. You cannot compare the EU with the USA or India as the members of the Eu are all sovereign states. We were right to stay out of the Euro and do not forget there are only 16 countries in the Euro out a membership of 27. Those who wish to join the Euro have not said at what rate they would be prepared to join. Would it be at 1.50 or 1.20 or 1.00. The big powers, France and Germany would want us to join at a low a rate as possible and that would cripple us economically. We need to freedom to set our own interest rates and economic policy. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 By set our own interest rates and financial policies you mean do whatever the USA does but do it three days later! Because of globalisation of finance I don't think any country in any currency zone an act independantly of any other. Most companies are just part of a group that has a head office somewhere else. You only need look at motorhome brands as an example. So they have no loyalty to any flag or government, they just follow the cash. It's Capitalism at work people, and there's nothing anyone can do, including politicians of any party, unless the system is taken apart and redesigned. And the money people sure aint going to allow that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 A warning if moving Euros between coutries on the Eurozone The euro zone is not all what it seems. A collegue of mine sent me a cheque in Euros drawn a a spanish bank account, this was done to save me having to convert from sterling into euros given the present conversion rate. I sent the cheque to be paid into my French bank and on checking my statement found that I had been charged nearly 24 Euro which was more than 10% of the value of the cheque. I queried this with the bank in France ony to be told that as the cheque was drawn on a Spanish bank I had been charged "international cheque handling charge" my argument was that the point of eurozone members that have joined the euro, was to have free movement of currency, after all in the sterling zone if I sent a cheque from England to Scotland I would not expect to pay "International charges" and that a cheque handling fee should certainly not be as high as I was charged, but was told this is a standard charge! whatever that means. So I remain some what p.ss.d off but also wiser, enjoyed the argument with the bank though, So be warned if transfering Euros within the Eurozone, check the charges Happy new year to you all Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Geoff it would be interesting to know which French bank you use. I have checked the small print of mine, Credit Agricole, and from what I can see the transfer should be free but plus the operational costs of €3,17 TTC. This would assume though that all the info (BIC,ISO, IBAN) are present. My bank missed these off once and I was charged quite a sum. I still only pay 2,65 (no tax to pay) although the English bank charges are extortionate now. There are moves in the banking world (so I am informed by Lloyds) to create free banking between UK and the Eurozone on the same day - will believe that when I see it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Yes, there is an issue between banks and between countries within the Eurozone. I think us Brits have been (comparitively) well treated by UK banks (yes, really!!) with regard to current account free banking. Certainly in Spain I'm unaware of any such thing as "free" current account banking. The banks charge an annual fee, and also make charges for inter-bank transfers and inter-country transfers of euros. Often also for direct debits and for cheque payments too. However I think I'm right in saying that if you were to electronically transfer euros via IBAN from a sister bank branch of the same bank in (say) France to (say) Spain, you could avoid these. A lot seems to depend on your own bank staff over here....I've had fees waived several times if I've been moving money around and have argued to toss at the time face-to-face with our local branch staff. But if doing it on-line. the fee gets charged automatically by the banks computer system, and the branch staff later plead "can't change that retrospectively" when tackled face-to-face. So it might well be worth going in to your Eurozone bank if possible to negotiate the fees for any IBAN transfer, before you actually transfer the euros..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertGS Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 You should hold off buying the Euro for as long as possible. Sterling is currently undervalued against the Euro and it will go a lot higher, possibly up by 10% in a few weeks and probably a lot higher by Spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hi Patricia, I to use CA Credit Agricole and have found then very good to deal with generally. They are at present doing Free money tranfers from the UK banks to accounts with them, no charges and the exchange rate on the day it is transferred. I have emailed them with my complaint but not holding my breath. On the plus side diesel was 89c per ltr at Intermarche today and I to think that the Euro will fall or the pound gain in value soon Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Geoff Cole - 2009-01-05 1:21 PM A warning if moving Euros between coutries on the Eurozone The euro zone is not all what it seems. A collegue of mine sent me a cheque in Euros drawn a a spanish bank account, this was done to save me having to convert from sterling into euros given the present conversion rate. I sent the cheque to be paid into my French bank and on checking my statement found that I had been charged nearly 24 Euro which was more than 10% of the value of the cheque. I queried this with the bank in France ony to be told that as the cheque was drawn on a Spanish bank I had been charged "international cheque handling charge" my argument was that the point of eurozone members that have joined the euro, was to have free movement of currency, after all in the sterling zone if I sent a cheque from England to Scotland I would not expect to pay "International charges" and that a cheque handling fee should certainly not be as high as I was charged, but was told this is a standard charge! whatever that means. So I remain some what p.ss.d off but also wiser, enjoyed the argument with the bank though, So be warned if transfering Euros within the Eurozone, check the charges Happy new year to you all Geoff I had exactly the same problem when I was given a sterling cheque by a company in Holland as payment for some trailers I had sold them! Not only did it take nearly 3 weeks for the transaction to go through my bank charged me over £50 for the privilege 8o| 8o| They said that was the charge from their international department in London!!! Regards Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal55 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 RupertGS - 2009-01-05 3:43 PMYou should hold off buying the Euro for as long as possible. Sterling is currently undervalued against the Euro and it will go a lot higher, possibly up by 10% in a few weeks and probably a lot higher by Spring.i agree, up3cents today.wait until the eurozone car makers produce there accounts. if toyota is losing money then they all are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Pat - what an extortionate amount £50! I object to paying £20 every time I send money over to France now as it used to be £5 when I first opened the French account. Bruce - my French banking is free except for the charge for the debit card each year. Otherwise no charges (except for the €2,67 each transfer payment from the UK) and actually get a bonus each time I use my card. However, a few weeks ago I noticed a charge of about €6 when I had inadvertently gone in the red for a couple of weeks. I have seen one company where you can fix the value of the euro for future transfers and they seem to forecast a slight rise in the value of the pound (or fall in value of the euro) in the Spring. Geoff - thanks for the tip about the free transfers as I think I will have to make one again soon. It is the UK bank charges though that get me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianR Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Patricia - 2009-01-05 9:47 PM I have seen one company where you can fix the value of the euro for future transfers and they seem to forecast a slight rise in the value of the pound (or fall in value of the euro) in the Spring. Any UK clearing bank will let you fix the exchange rate for a future transaction. Just ask for a forward contract to buy or sell the currency concerned. You can take one out for a fixed date or for a period of a month - say to buy 1000€ in August 2009. They shouldn't charge you for this. The rate will be fixed at the current spot rate (i.e., interbank rate) plus an adjustment for the difference in the € and £ interest rates. There is no attempt to forecast what the spot rate will be in say August - they are forbiden by the B of E from doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwaviation Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I read today that the exchange rate means that our contributions to the EUSSR have increased by some £4.5 billion this year - Two aircraft carriers should just about cover it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Hi Rupert you are absolutely correct the £-E will increase but that is no use to the likes of me and others who are off across the water now. I am not going to postpone my trip in the hope that in a couple of weeks, but I would suggest months, that it will go up by a few points. I am getting a better deal from the fery cost that more than makes up for that little extra in exchange rate. >:-) >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Plus diesel is a lot cheaper than it was - swings and roundabouts theory applies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Tracker - 2009-01-06 9:56 AM Plus diesel is a lot cheaper than it was - swings and roundabouts theory applies! True, but the differential between diesel prices in France and the UK is fast disappearing with the exchange rate so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Patricia - 2009-01-06 10:00 AM Tracker - 2009-01-06 9:56 AM Plus diesel is a lot cheaper than it was - swings and roundabouts theory applies! True, but the differential between diesel prices in France and the UK is fast disappearing with the exchange rate so bad. Having paid just over the equivalent of £1.50 a litre in Norway and Sweden last June and July I will never again complain at paying under £1 for a litre wherever I am! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Looking brighter - rate up to €1.082/£. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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