joanden Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 we have towed with an aframe for many years. we have now been told it is illegal in france to use one.can any one help or know if this is now the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 You can do a search for threads this has come up many times, it is of some debate as to legality in UK, my personal opinion is that it depends on if your braking system works o.k. That aside it is I believe illegal for a french registered vehicle to tow with A frame, it appears that UK reg vehicles may be able to tow with A frame in france as I've heard of people doing it but not heard of anyone being nicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 joanden Received wisdom is (as Colin says) that, in France, it is illegal for a French-registered motorhome to tow a car on an A-frame. This is not a new law - it's always been that way. The question of whether it is similarly illegal for a UK-registered motorhome to tow a car via an A-frame while travelling in France depends on exactly how the French law is framed and on 'harmonisation' of vehicle-related regulations across the EU. To allow easy movement of vehicles within the EU, there is a general rule that, if the manner in which a vehicle is being used is legal in the vehicle's own country of registration, then that usage is considered to be legal in any other EU country even if that particular country forbids that practice for vehicles registered in that country. Consequently, if towing a car on an A-frame were legal while driving in the UK with a UK-registered motorhome, then it would also be legal for that motorhome to tow a car on an A-frame while driving in France, even though it would be illegal to do the same thing if the towing motorhome were French-registered. My own feeling about motorhome A-frame towing, as far as UK legality is concerned, is that almost every system marketed to do it in this country clearly falls foul of UK towing-related regulations in one way or another (and I'm wary about the remaining systems too!) If A-frame towing in the UK by a UK-registered motorhome contravenes any UK regulations, then it's hard to see how it can be considered 'legal' here. I accept that the practice is tolerated in the UK and that (apparently) no motorcaravanner has been prosecuted in the UK for doing it, but that doesn't legalise it. And, if it is not legal in this country, then the 'harmonisation' rule should not apply when a UK-registered motorhome is towing a car in a country (like France) that has a law that forbids the practice for its own French-registered motorhomes. I'm aware that one of the main UK companies marketing A-frames in the UK offers a multi-lingual Get-out-of-Jail document that mentions harmonisation rules - however, this document makes no claims regarding pan-European legality for UK-registered motorhomes that tow cars via an A-frame. I see the document as a 'bluff' that may, or may not, sway a 'foreign' police officer who believes a UK A-framer may be breaking the policeman's own national laws. I'm also aware that a small number of UK motorcaravanners who have been fined for A-framing abroad are said to have had their fines refunded by challenging the prosecutions via their MEPs. All this proves, in my view, is that, if you are a Continental police authority and you get contacted by a UK MEP quoting some obscure technical jargon-heavy reasons as to why you were not entitled to impose a small fine on a disgruntled UK A-framer, you are just going to refund the fine to get the beggar off your back. I don't think it is more, or less, illegal in France currently for UK motorcaravanners to A-frame tow there - though there has been speculation on this forum that future EU towing-related regulations may rule against the practice. If A-frame-related prosecutions have increased in France recently, it may be because A-frame towing's questionable UK legality has become more widely-recognised within the French police force - but that's just guesswork on my part. The argument from UK A-framers regarding the UK-legality issue is usually on the lines of long-term usage UK and abroad without experiencing any legal problems, rather than addressing the UK technical regulations contravention. This always reminds me of the tale of the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building and, as he hurtled downwards past each floor, was heard to shout "OK so far!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 joanden - 2009-02-24 8:21 PM we have towed with an aframe for many years. we have now been told it is illegal in france to use one.can any one help or know if this is now the law? Why chance breaking the law, if you want to tow something do it the best and cheapest way, buy a caravan and tow it with a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Hi, Read towing with trailer in France. We have hit on the subject and found some people have been made uncouple before allowing to continue on. I think a trailer may be the best way to go Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 rupert123 - 2009-02-25 12:30 PM Why chance breaking the law, if you want to tow something do it the best and cheapest way, buy a caravan and tow it with a car. I don't often find myself agreeing with Henry ("Rupert"), but I'm with him here. I've never understood the point of the whole towed-car thing. Seems to me one of the main reasons for having a motorhome rather than a caravan is to (as one sticker used to say) "do it without a hitch." Once you sacrifice that in order to have a separate vehicle to run around in, why lug two heavy engines around when one will do? Might as well put the car in front and the living accom behind! However, having said that, my overall philosophy is that if you feel something is best for you, and it doesn't hurt anyone else, get on with it! The fact that I don't understand may be my loss. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 There is a report, in Le Monde du Camping-Car No 2007, Dec/Jan 2009, p 102, repeated in the non-series Accessories Guide No 11, published by the same magazine in January 2009, p95, of a French manufacturer of towing A frames intended for use behind motorhomes. The manufacturer's name is Jattel: they are based near Vichy - see http://tinyurl.com/d8scq5They claim, on their website, legality for their A frame under EC Directive 94/20/EC, highlighting Articles 2 and 3, up to a (presumably MAM) of 1,600Kg. (I have reproduced the English version of this Directive below, so that you can make up your own minds whether or not you are convinced by their argument.)Jattel's website also includes photographs of an installation, from which it is clear no steering modifications are made. They state that trailer braking is achieved via a cable that operates the footbrake of the towed car. There is no claim for the braking performance so achieved. There is also a lengthy list of vehicles that they can equip with this system.Whether or not this constitutes proof positive that their A frame meets French law, or that A frames are now deemed legal in France, I cannot say. Generally speaking Napoleonic (most of Europe) law requires specific legislation to confer legality, whereas Norman common law (mainly the UK) requires legislation to confer illegality. Thus, where there is doubt, and there is no prohibition, the UK presumption favours legality, whereas under Napoleonic law, the presumption will be of illegality. As Derek says above, braked A frames are not specifically outlawed in UK (although there is considerable debate over whether the required braking efficiency can be achieved - without which they are definitely illegal, as are the unbraked variety), and what is legal for a vehicle registered in one EC country, should be accepted as legal in any other EC country, even if it would be illegal for a vehicle registered in that country. This is the paradox of A frames: they are not specifically legal in UK, they are just not illegal. The problem generated by this paradox is that not all police in all European countries are familiar with this concept, and in the absence of specific type approval documentation or similar, we are unable to prove the legality of our A frames outside the UK. Thus if stopped and challenged by local police, we may have a problem! As Clint Eastwood said, "are you feeling lucky?".DIRECTIVE 94/20/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 30 May 1994 relating to the mechanical coupling devices of motor vehicles and their trailers and their attachment to those vehiclesTHE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE COUNCIL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION,Having regard to the Treaty establishing the European Community, and in particular Article 100a thereof,Having regard to the proposal from the Commission, (1) Having regard of the opinion of the Economic and Social Committee (2),Acting in accordance with the procedure laid down in Article 189b of the Treaty (3),Whereas the internal market comprises an area without internal frontiers in which the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital is ensured; whereas it is important to adopt measures to that end;Whereas the technical requirements which motor vehicles and their trailers must satisfy pursuant to national laws relate, inter alia, to the mechanical couplings of such vehicles;Whereas these requirements differ from one Member State to another; whereas it is therefore necessary that all Member States adopt the same requirements either in addition to, or in place of, their existing rules in order to allow, in particular, the EEC type-approval procedure which was the subject of Council Directive 70/156/EC of 6 February 1970 on the approximation of the laws of Member States relating to the type-approval of motor vehicles and their trailers (4), to be implemented;Whereas this Directive will be one of the separate directives of the EEC type-approval procedure which has been established by Directive 70/156/EEC; whereas, consequently, the provisions laid down in Directive 70/156/EEC relating to vehicle systems, components and separate technical units shall apply to this Directive;Whereas, with the view of improving road safety and facilitating the interchangeability of motor vehicles and trailers in international traffic, it is considered important that all kinds of vehicles forming a road train or being an articulated vehicle shall be equipped with standardized and harmonized mechanical coupling systems;Whereas it is desirable to follow the technical requirements of the ECE (Economic Commission for Europe of the United Nations) Regulation No 55 relating to the uniform provisions concerning mechanical coupling components of combinations of vehicles; whereas Regulation No 55 is annexed to the Agreement of 20 March 1958 concerning the adoption of uniform conditions of approval and reciprocal recognition of approval for motor vehicle equipment and parts;Whereas mainly international standards (ISO) have been taken into consideration for uniform dimensions of mechanical coupling systems to ensure interchangeability of the individual vehicles forming road trains or articulated vehicles and to guarantee free movement of goods the Member States,HAVE ADOPTED THIS DIRECTIVE:Article 1 For the purpose of this Directive:- 'vehicle` means any motor vehicle as defined in Article 2 of Directive 70/156/EEC, intended for use on the road, being complete or incomplete, having at least four wheels and a maximum design speed exceeding 25 km/h, and its trailers, with the exception of vehicles which run on rails and of agricultural and forestry tractors and all mobile machinery,- 'mechanical coupling type` means a mechanical coupling device for which type-approval of a component within the meaning of Article 2 of Directive 70/156/EEC may be granted.Article 2 Member States may not refuse:- EEC type-approval or national type-approval for a vehicle, or refuse or prohibit the sale, registration, entry into service or use of a vehicle on grounds relating to its optional equipment with mechanical coupling devices,- EEC component type-approval or national component type-approval for a mechanical coupling, or prohibit the sale or use of a mechanical coupling device,if the requirements of the Annexes are satisfied.Article 3 Member States shall adopt and publish the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive within 18 months of the date of its adoption. They shall forthwith inform the Commission thereof.When Member States adopt these measures, they shall contain a reference to this Directive or shall be accompanied by such reference on the occasion of their official publication. The method of making such a reference shall be laid down by the Member States.They shall apply these provisions 18 months following the date of adoption of this Directive.Article 4 This Directive is addressed to the Member States.Done at Brussels, 30 May 1994.For the European Parliament The President E. KLEPSCH For the Council The President Th. PANGALOS (1) OJ No C 134, 25. 5. 1992, p. 36.(2) OJ No C 313, 30. 11. 1992, p. 10.(3) Opinion of the European Parliament of 29 October 1992 (OJ No C 305, 23. 11. 1992, p. 115). Council common position of 27 September 1993 (not yet published in the Official Journal). Decision of the European Parliament of 9 March 1994 (not yet published in the Official Journal).(4) OJ No L 42, 23. 2. 1970, p. 1. Direcitve as last amended by Directive 92/53/EEC (OJ No L 225, 10. 8. 1992, p. 1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric 83 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 see my post and photos, from last year of a french reg. mhome towing a custom made french car with custom made A frame! gentleman said that they(the french mhomers )were trying to have it made legal to tow with A frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joanden Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 i thank you all for your input on the subject.we have towed for a number of years with an A-Frame with no problems what so ever.But then we heard that the law had changed. we have had caravans in the past, but due to health reasons changed to a motor home. then my disability.ment that i also needed transport when we arrived at site. I am new to this magazine also to the forum.i find you all so friendly and it is interesting to read all the differant info keep it up joan :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Hi, Tony, One can have a motorhome and use it separately and if you need to set up on site for a long period you can bring a small car on tow and use it locally. Each to their own. Regarding A -Frames legality. Has anyone had an accident abroad with an A-Frame recently? This may answer a lot of questions. Regards, Brendan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Roadmaster enters the European Marketplace Towing system manufacturer Roadmaster Inc. has ventured into the European market, setting up a distribution system in Amsterdam for launching retail sales in its latest expansion venture. After Roadmaster received approval in 2008 for its tow bar to be used by "caravaneers" from the Dutch National Police Agency in the Netherlands, which acts as a safety certification authority, Roadmaster tow bars were automatically certified for use in other European countries with the exception of Germany, where approval is pending. Roadmaster tow bars will be manufactured in Oregon and distributed from a warehouse in Amsterdam. New brackets were designed for the front ends of European cars so they can be towed. When European motorhomes tow, they use a ball system to attach the towbar to the towing vehicle as oppposed to the receiver system used in the US. Roadmaster intends to sell a package that includes the tow bar, necessary wiring, safety cables and towed-vehicle brakes for 5,000 euros (based on Nov 2008 exchange rates against the dollar). A shortened extract from the American magazine " Motorhome" March 2009 edition. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 So that's about 6 times more expensive than the A-frame when we bought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 The website for the Roadmaster company mentioned by Chris is http://roadmasterinc.com/ This is worth visiting as it advertises a variety of towing technologies including one that operates the towed-car's brakes via the towing motorhome's own hydraulic or pneumatic braking system. This arrangement would seem to prevent controversy regarding the UK technical requirement for the brakes of a 'trailer' (in this case, a towed-car) not to operate when the towing motorhome reverses - an unavoidable inherent characteristic of the over-run 'caravan-type' couplings fitted to most UK-marketed A-frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 In October of last year I was in the area to the east of Clermont Ferrand and spotted a French-registered three-axled Burstner Elegance I710 and and A-frame towbar alongside it on a camp site. I was curious about the legality of this means of towing under French legislation. When the opportunity arose to discuss this with the owner of the camping car, I was told that he had bought the necessary parts from a French supplier and much of the equipment was from a certain British manufacturer. The towing bar itself was from Alco to which a "claw" and car attachment pieces had been added. The system had been homolugated under European regulations, he added. At least, I think that is what he told me in French. It was the first and only time I have seen an A-frame system used by anybody other than a British-registered vehicle. I did once see a Dutch-registered home-converted coach towing a Datsun on something similar to a breakdown vehicle's hydraulic lift in France, but that is another story. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I don't suppose you noticed his departement number on his plate did you? I know a UK supplier, but forget his name, has set up a concern in the Dordogne region where he insists he has the permission and support of the local police chief. Maybe this Frenchman bought from him? The supplier has a stall at most of the shows I believe and supplies a printed argument to support the legal status of A-frames - still can't remember his name though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Patricia The UK A-frame supplier you have in mind may well be TOWtal (www.towtal.co.uk). Their website did offer a downloadable multi-lingual disclaimer document for A-framers to wave under the noses of anyone in 'foreign' authority who thought the use of this method of car-towing might be illegal. The website currently seems to have little information on A-frames and I can't locate the disclaimer document (though I can sense its presence there via GOOGLE). I've seen TOWtal exhibiting at several motorhome shows and always enjoyed their 'selective' advertising regarding A-frame towing legality in this country. Another thing about TOWtal that amused me related to their adverts in MMM in 2004. These were full-page and described their tow-bars, the Brakebuddy product and their A-frames. The A-frame section included the statement "Now recognised as fully legal", which, at the time, I thought debatable. The adverts remained the same for a couple of MMM issues, then suddenly, the "Now recognised as fully legal" sentence had been altered to "Now recognised as fully acceptable" - a very different kettle of fish. The amended advert lasted for another two or three magazine issues and then ceased altogether. If I were A-frame towing in France nowadays, rather than rely on luck or the TOWtal disclaimer piece of paper, I'd take copies with me of the information on the Jattel website Brian mentions http://www.jattel.com/accueil_030.htm particularly the legislation and Press comments sections. One would need to be a pretty confident French policeman to fine a UK A-framer when faced with such documentary 'evidence' that the practice is OK in France. Having said that, Francophones may wish to work their way through the following lengthy French forum thread http://voyageforum.com/voyage/informations_tractage_un_vehicule_grace_un_tow_bar_americaine_D197512/ I've not looked at the thread closely (life's too short!) but the jury still seems to be very much out as to whether the practice is legal for the French to do in France (never mind the Brits). It also seems that Jattel imports and fits A-frame products provided by the UK company Car-a-Tow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 As usual Derek and Brian your posts are full of information and I have spent some time perusing the two websites suggested. Thank you as I found these interesting but as Derek says unconvincing to the legal position in France. My experience of the DIRE is that they seem to be departement specific, in essence a law unto themselves hence the confusion perhaps although it seems many of them have pronounced this method of towing as illegal. Incidentally I didn't know that the testing stations had been privatised, maybe explains the rise in cost last year! I read the whole of the forum thread and the one important thing that was mentioned only rarely was the problem of reversing. We had a system as shown in the website where we lifted the towbar connection so that the car could be reversed but of course this needs two drivers - not an option for me now. I have no idea how the braking system could otherwise be disconnected quickly but then I really didn't go into the "mechanics" of it! All I know is that I could obviously make a good profit selling mine over there if only they were legalised but looks like I will have to bring back to the UK to sell it after all!! Just hope I can do it in time before the law is clarified negatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Hi Patricia, I am sorry, I don't remember the departmental number on the camping car, but I know it wasn't 24 (that is very close to home). I seem to have something in my mind that the supplier was somewhere to the west(ish) of Paris. Perhaps I will see him again later this year when I will be back in the same area. Good luck, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 eljay - 2009-02-27 8:39 PM Hi Patricia, I am sorry, I don't remember the departmental number on the camping car, but I know it wasn't 24 (that is very close to home). I seem to have something in my mind that the supplier was somewhere to the west(ish) of Paris. Perhaps I will see him again later this year when I will be back in the same area. Good luck, J Thank you for your good wishes John. I noticed in the Jattel website that they were demonstrating on cars from 62 (Calais area), 31 (Toulouse) and 63 (Puy-de-Dome), probably some others too. I imagine this is to demonstrate that people from a wide area will drive a long way to spend a great deal of money! I can understand 63 (my departement) because it is close to Vichy. The other interesting thing is the obligation to show the speed stickers (covering most of the rear window - not a good idea) which we do not have to do - just the red triangles. When I next go out to France I will ask my insurer about the legality re insurance of towing in this way and show her the publicity. When I insured my small car I asked if I could tow it behind the m/home and she said "yes" but we never did so in the end mainly because we thought she had mistaken our enquiry i.e. to tow with the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Evidently there was a 'towing' article in the "Motorhome Monthly" February 2009 issue (which I haven't got) and there is a follow-up piece (essentially a letter from a Mr Noel Jones) in the current March issue relating to motorhomes using an A-frame to tow a car. Although I don't believe it says anything that hasn't been discussed before, it's still worth reading if you get the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 onecal vw - 2009-02-25 9:46 PM Hi, Tony, One can have a motorhome and use it separately and if you need to set up on site for a long period you can bring a small car on tow and use it locally. Each to their own. Absolutely, Brendan. Which is another way of saying: Tony Jones 2009-02-25 2:27 PM ... if you feel something is best for you, and it doesn't hurt anyone else, get on with it! The fact that I don't understand may be my loss. Live and let live! Regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Hi all, Does anyone out there care to answer the question. Did anyone towing with an A-Frame have an accident while travelling abroad? :$ This may answer a lot of questions on this subject. Regards, Brendan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I've never heard of any motorcaravanner towing a car on an A-frame being involved in a road-traffic aacident (in the UK or abroad) where use of the A-frame towing method resulted in any blame for the accident and/or prosecution. As this forum is relatively small, you might try inquiring on, say, the MotorHomeFacts forum that has a much larger audience. However, I'm doubtful that a positive reply to your question will be obtained as, if an A--framer had been involved in an accident and been blamed/prosecuted because of the A-frame, we would darn sure know about it by now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Hi, As far as I am aware in Ireland our insurance does not cover A Frames only for breakdown purposes (rec') We had a person four years lost his claim in France (Beziers to Serignan plage) when a large truck hit him on a roundabout and the A Frame came away and damaged some other cars. Does the insurance in the U.K. cover the A Frame for private use? Stating countries in the E.U. that the policy covers? Regards, Brendan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Brendan I don't think there is much difficulty in the UK obtaining insurance cover for a car being towed by a motorhome via an A-frame. To the best of my knowledge the insurance provider treats the car as a trailer when it is being towed and the same 'geographical' terms and conditions apply to it as would apply to a trailer (and, presumably as would apply to a car being towed on a trailer). Obviously, the towed vehicler will need its own separate insurance for the time when it is uncoupled from the motorhome and has transformed back into a car. Joanden, who initiated this thread, should be able to provide more precise information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.