Legality of towing with aframe

[Patricia]

Derek as far as I am aware the car when on the A-frame will be covered by most insurance companies for third party only, not comprehensively so if there is an accident neither the car insurer nor the m/home insurer will pay up. There are some exceptions, or were, e.g. Comfort would insure both vehicles comprehensively and another, whose name escapes me but begins with an Fortes who said they would cover it. I insisted on having this in writing though.

[onecal]

Hi

I am just wondering does this insurance cover only the U.K. If it does cover other countries in the E.U. does the insurance companies give this in writing.

Regards,

Brendan

[Patricia]

onecal vw - 2009-03-02 8:13 PM

 

Hi

I am just wondering does this insurance cover only the U.K. If it does cover other countries in the E.U. does the insurance companies give this in writing.

Regards,

Brendan

 

Yes, I had it in writing. Have just noticed that my post above does not read correctly. Sorry but I couldn't think of the company's name at first then thought of it at the last minute and forgot to read it through again!!

[onecal]

Hi,

This is very important as we do not get that cover over here. Now who said the E.U. was going to be a level playing field.

Patrica can you get the same cover in France as in the U.K.

Regards,

Brendan.

[joanden]

we have both insured.the motor home and the car are both fully comp.when the car is being towed, it is only third party.then when uncoupled it goes back to fully comp. we have towed with the a-frame

for many years no problem.infact we where stopped in france by the police just to hae a look at the frame.we have both car and van with the AA has well. B-)

[joanden]

in reply to the question of reversing when the a-frame is connected.

when we bought our frame,we where advised to keep below the 60mph

and not to attempt reverse.I drive the van when towing has well has my husband,and you just use your driving sense and hope you dont need to reverse. so far god willing we have never found our selfs in that kind of spot

[Derek Uzzell]

It is the UK requirement for any 'trailer' to be capable of being reversed without manual intervention that is the primary UK-legality stumbling-block as far as A-frames with over-run braking systems are concerned.

 

Although it is perfectly possible to reverse a motorhome towing a car on this type of A-frame, you need to cherry-pick the scenario.

 

The "Motorhome Monthly" letter I mentioned earlier says "On surfaces with good friction (eg. tarmac/concrete) I can reverse as far as I need to in a straightish line without the car's brakes engaging or the car's front wheels castoring (ie. the rolling resistance is less than sideways resistance)."

 

The writer highlights that the UK's requirement for a trailer be capable of being reversed without manual intervention is not precisely specified regarding distance, direction or situation. Whether being able to reverse (very carefully) only on the flat or downhill and in a straightish line on good surfaces meets the UK's "without manual intervention" requirement is anybody's guess. I would suggest not, but, to establish legality or otherwise, the idea would need to be tested in court.

[Patricia]

The problem being that you cannot choose the situation when you need to reverse and usually the need would happen in the most inconvenient places!

On a main road in the south of France, narrow with rock overhangs and following a river, we rounded a bend (cautiously) to be confronted by a very long articulated with a row of cars behind it. Then I noticed that he was also a learner driver - not good! I was immediately ready to jump out to unhitch and to urge patience on the French drivers, not to be relished(!) when the lorry driver did no more than begin reversing himself and making all the following vehicles do the same. What a relief! He was obviously trying to impress the accompanying driver which he did perfectly soif he was on his test I hope he passed. Incidentally the overhangs were his side and had hidden his approach.

 

Insurnace aside, it is this very problem of reversing which now prevents me from towing the car. Real pity because it was a wonderful accessory to go exploring in.

[Patricia]

onecal vw - 2009-03-02 8:45 PM

 

Hi,

This is very important as we do not get that cover over here. Now who said the E.U. was going to be a level playing field.

Patrica can you get the same cover in France as in the U.K.

Regards,

Brendan.

 

I really don't know Brendan but I will ask when I return to France, if not sooner. I might even be wrong about the English insurance companies now as I think the last time I insured in England was in 2003. You would have to query with each one I suppose. Do you have many companies to choose from in Eire?

[Brian Kirby]

Patricia - 2009-03-03 9:48 AM ............. Insurnace aside, it is this very problem of reversing which now prevents me from towing the car. Real pity because it was a wonderful accessory to go exploring in.

But can't you put the car on a trailer, Patricia?  There are a number that allow the car to be driven straight on and reversed off, so that need not be a worry.  True, the trailer adds clutter when sited, and may attract extra cost, but if you are prepared to get the right car, even that can be overcome.  Have a look here http://tinyurl.com/dcbca8  Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but a way round, nevertheless!

[onecal]

Hi,

In Eire we only have two insurance companies and as far as I am aware they will not cover for private use or abroad. I dont use an A Frame myself I use a trailer with no problems.

Regards,

Brendan

[Derek Uzzell]

Brendan

 

You could try giving Comfort Insurance a ring (0800 328 4379 or 020 8984 0777) about this as they are well clued-up on the weird and wonderful world of motorcaravanning.

[onecal]

Hi,

Thanks Derek but U.K insurance will not suffice in Eire. What I am trying to show is the reluctance of insurance companies to supply cover for A Frames across the E.U. and therefore the legality of towing with an A Frame abroad.

I think the days of private use of A Frames may be numbered and this may sway a lot of motorhomers to opt for trailers.

Regards,

Brendan.

[Patricia]

Brendan maybe I didn't explain the insurance situation clearly enough. It is the car's insurance which determines if it is covered comprehensively whist on the A-frame, not the m/home's. M/home insurance covers third party fullstop as far as I know whether it is a caravan, car on a trailer or on an A-frame. Also I may well be out-of-date with this information as I think the last time I insured in England with this car was about 2003 or 2004. At that time the only insurers that I knew of that would cover the car fully comp whilst on an A-frame were Comfort and Fortis but there may well have been others.

 

With regards to the situation in France, I explained that I needed cover for towing a car and my insurer assured me that it was ok. However, I would have checked with a photo etc. to guard against misunderstanding before doing so. I have a sneaking suspicion that she still thought of the outfit as per a car and caravan, not the vehicle towing the car. I will try to clarify the situation when I return to France.

[Patricia]

Brian Kirby - 2009-03-03 5:16 PM

Patricia - 2009-03-03 9:48 AM ............. Insurnace aside, it is this very problem of reversing which now prevents me from towing the car. Real pity because it was a wonderful accessory to go exploring in.

But can't you put the car on a trailer, Patricia?  There are a number that allow the car to be driven straight on and reversed off, so that need not be a worry.  True, the trailer adds clutter when sited, and may attract extra cost, but if you are prepared to get the right car, even that can be overcome.  Have a look here http://tinyurl.com/dcbca8  Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but a way round, nevertheless!

Brian this looks like a brilliant idea - how do you find them?Unfortunately for me I already have the car, a Fiat 899cc which weighs unladen 737 kg. The axle weight advertised says 750 but I don't know whether that is the actual weight of the trailer or the weight that can be loaded. It certainly looks very easy to load and unload which for me would be a big stumbling block with other trailers. How I would ever get out of the car once loaded though would be another question!!!Also at the moment I don't have a spare £4000 to use either and to be honest I could hire a lot of cars for that price. Thank you for pointing out this option to me though and I am sure other people would be interested i.e. micro car owners.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brendan

 

I believe you may be looking at the insurance issue through the wrong end of the telescope.

 

Within Europe, using a motorhome to tow a car is apparently peculiar to the UK. It's a practice imported to the UK from the USA where it is legal. Although the reversing aspect MUST conflict with UK 'trailer' regulations (if the over-run brakes don't get you, the car's castoring front-wheels will!), the legal issue has never been tested in UK courts. Because of this, A-frame towing in the UK is generally held to be 'acceptable', though it cannot be considered 'legal' or 'illegal'. Most motorhome-related organisations that have no axe to grind (the Caravan Club, motorhome magazines, etc.) advise against its use because of the legal greyness.

 

Some UK insurance providers are prepared to offer cover for UK motorcaravanners towing with A-frames. I can't tell you their justification for doing this, which is why I suggested you contact Comfort Insurance who should be able to do so. Insurance providers can make very questionable decisions sometimes, but my experience of Comfort Insurance is that they err on the side of conservatism and common sense.

 

Some EU countries evidently have regulations that forbid their 'native' motorhomes from A-frame towing a car (you mentioned that this is the case in Ireland) and obviously insurance providers in those countries won't offer cover for this practice. Alternatively, if there are EU countries where no native motorcaravanner has bothered to jump on the A-frame band-wagon in the past, then insurance providers there may well be wary of offering cover should anyone suddenly develop the A-frame urge. However, I don't really see why any of this should affect the legality of A-frame towing either within the UK or abroad within the EU. If a UK insurer will offer cover for a UK A-framer, but an Irish insurer will not for an Irish A-framer (or French insurer will not...., etc.), then so what?

 

The A-frame debate has been running ever since the Warners forums began. I don't know how much of the earlier stuff you've read, but if you employ the forum's SEARCH facility and set Keywords=A-frame, Filter by author=Mel E and Date limit=All posts, you'll get most of the related threads going back to 2005.

[onecal]

Hi .

Derek I understand where you are comimg from and I am sorry if I have not made my self clear.

Insurance providers supply insurance cover for motorhome and A Frame in the U.K.Is this cover only for theU.K? Do they supply written proof that they will cover other states in the E.U. (France etc) while towing with an A Frame.

We find this is no problem with a motorhome and trailer. Your insurance details will list out E.U states covered, but we find they may not do this for a motorhome towing an A Frame.

Regards,

Brendan.

[Derek Uzzell]

onecal vw - 2009-03-04 1:15 PM

 

We find this is no problem with a motorhome and trailer. Your insurance details will list out E.U states covered, but we find they may not do this for a motorhome towing an A Frame.

 

Brendan

 

I understood from your earlier postings that private individuals in Ireland could not obtain insurance for A-frame towing with a motorhome, so I'm not sure how to interpret your last statement.

 

There has been some forum discussion before about insurance and A-frames. See the following:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=6564&posts=24

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-printtopic-1-30020-0-0-asc-viewresult-1.html

 

My own motorcaravan policy (backed by Norwich Union and arranged via Comfort Insurance) covers use of my motorhome within the UK, within EU member countries, plus in Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Croatia.

 

The policy also covers my motorhome towing a 'trailer' (not exceeding £3000) OTHER THAN "a mechanically propelled vehicle, a horse-box, or a caravan." Plainly, if I wanted to tow any of these excluded types of trailer I would need to have the policy amended to extend its present coverage.

 

I have not seen the special A-frame-related policy that, apparently, Comfort Insurance can provide, so I cannot comment on its wording. But I would be startled if a rigid UK-only A-frame-usage territorial limitation were included in the policy, as I'm sure a fair percentage of UK A-framers deliberately choose this towing method with a view to employing it outside the UK.

 

(To try to obtain up-to-date information on A-frame insurance I shall ask about it on the Motorhome Matters forum.)

 

[Melvin]

My motorhome is insured with Saga, my partners proposed towed vehicle is insured with Sage in her own name, we are named drivers on both policys.

 

Saga underwriter informed me this morning the towing vehicle is fully covered under it own policy, the towed vehicle is covered under it own policy. In short we are fully covered when towing with an A-Frame

 

Hope this helps

[Brian Kirby]

onecal vw - 2009-03-04 1:15 PM Hi . Derek I understand where you are comimg from and I am sorry if I have not made my self clear. Insurance providers supply insurance cover for motorhome and A Frame in the U.K.Is this cover only for theU.K? Do they supply written proof that they will cover other states in the E.U. (France etc) while towing with an A Frame. We find this is no problem with a motorhome and trailer. Your insurance details will list out E.U states covered, but we find they may not do this for a motorhome towing an A Frame. Regards, Brendan.

Brendan

I wonder if there may be a misunderstanding at the root of your puzzlement?

When a car is towed by a motorhome, it becomes merely the motorhome's trailer.  As such, it has to comply with the national legal requirements for trailers: that is to say, if over 750Kg MAM (in UK) it must have brakes that work when the towing vehicle brakes, it must be capable of being reversed without intervention by the driver of the towing vehicle (or anyone else, for that matter) and, irrespective of its weight, its lights and indicators must function as an extension of those of the towing vehicle.  If it satisfies all these requirements, it is, for so long as it is correctly attached to the towing vehicle, legally, a trailer. 

Trailer insurance in UK (and presumably, under EC harmonisation, Ireland) is normally provided as an automatic extension on most vehicle insurances.  The cover is limited to third party risks (i.e. loss, damage, or injury caused by the trailer), but only applies while the trailer is actually attached to the towing vehicle.  For UK insurers, this provision applies in all countries listed in the definition of the "territorial limits" of the policy, unless expressly stated to be excluded.  Thus, the third party towing risks are usually covered for the whole of the EEC, plus a few additional countries, often including Croatia.

Now, in the case of trailers, it is normal to take out additional insurance against loss of or damage to the trailer itself, however caused, and against any third party risk that may result from its use while it is not attached to the towing vehicle.

In the case of a car, third party insurance is a minimum legal requirement for its use on public roads.  (However, the fitting of the A frame attachment will constitute a modification, so must be declared to the insurer.)  Since the car will, once attached to the towing vehicle, become its trailer, the third party risk within the car insurance would, logically, transfer to the towing vehicle.  However, as car insurance includes compulsory third party insurance, it may be preferable for those risks not to transfer to the towed vehicle.  There is a concept (as a safeguard against fraud) that an item must not be insured twice.  Two lots of third party insurance on one car seems to me to create, at best, a grey area.  For this reason it is essential both insurers understand that it is a car that will be towed, and not a conventional trailer, and that both signify they accept the unusual nature of this arrangement.  I would suggest that to cover all possible eventualities and misunderstandings it would be wise to insure both car, and motorhome, with the same insurer, declaring the towed/modified status of the car on both proposals.  Then, whatever arises, there should be no claim to have misunderstood where the liability for an event might lie. 

Failing this, logically, it seems to me either the motorhome insurer should issue an endorsement to exclude the trailer risks when the trailer in question is a separately insured car, or the car insurer needs to issue an endorsement excluding third party risks while the car is being towed as a trailer.

Be that as it may be, the car insurance, assuming it is provided by a UK insurer, will have its full normal validity, subject to limitations of its territorial limits and, once detached from the motorhome, may be driven anywhere within those limits.  I cannot say whether all of these provisions are common in Irish law.

Final thought.  If the car is to be towed on a trailer, the insurance of both trailer, and car, should be clarified.  Since the trailer will be just that, it will be covered normally by the towing vehicle's insurance for third party risks while being towed.  However, the trailer itself will have a value, and will present risks when detached from the towing vehicle, for example on a campsite.  Thus insurance for the trailer itself seems essential.  The car, once mounted on the trailer, is in unfamiliar territory as it is exposed to risks the insurer may not have contemplated when insuring it as a car.  Suppose the trailer clips, and damages, a fence on a tight bend, and car and trailer both suffer damage.  The damage to the fence is covered under the towing vehicle's insurance (third party risk).  The damage to the trailer is covered by the trailer insurance (assuming you bought some!).  But, is the damage to the car covered under the car insurance, bearing in mind the car is neither parked, nor being driven, nor has been vandalised, and is not stolen?  How is the car insured while on the trailer?  I think this will be another point to clarify, in writing, with the insurer.

[Patricia]

Melvin - 2009-03-05 10:02 AM

 

My motorhome is insured with Saga, my partners proposed towed vehicle is insured with Sage in her own name, we are named drivers on both policys.

 

Saga underwriter informed me this morning the towing vehicle is fully covered under it own policy, the towed vehicle is covered under it own policy. In short we are fully covered when towing with an A-Frame

 

Hope this helps

 

Melvin your post is interesting as both my m/home and car are insured with Saga and they told me in February that the car would only be insured third party if on tow (as it happens this would not be the car I would tow anyway but I didn't go into details). I didn't specify an A-frame, just on tow. I should be interested to learn if you have this assurance in writing?

[onecal]

Hi brian.

So what you are saying that in the U.K. the insurance providers do see the a frame and car as a trailer as in U.S.A. If, as you state that this cover applies in all countries listed, then towing with an a frame from the U.K. should pose no problems.

I just wish all other insurance providers in other E.U member states would give the same type of cover as it would be great for all A Frame users in the E.U.

Regards,

Brendan.

[onecal]

Hi,

This surely is good news to all towing from the UK. This is not the case in Ireland all four wheels must be off the ground so it looks like it must be a trailer.

Sorry in answer to Dereks question the insurance provider did at one time provide cover for A-Frames but I think that has been some years ago in Ireland.

Hope it all works out for all and everyone enjoys their hobby.

Regards,

Brendan.

[Patricia]

 

I have today sent an email to my French insurers together with the information and photos from the website suggested by Brian: http://www.jattel.com/vehicules_adaptables_180.htm

 

Obviously I made it plain that I do not have this particular model but one that is identical.

 

If and when I receive a reply I will post on this thread.

[donna miller]

I know this subject will go on for ever, as each camp has it's own "beliefs" on the law due to their own interpretation of the regulations. However, whilst looking for the regs for something work related regarding trailers, I came upon the NTA wbsite ( National Trailer and Towing Ass), there is a question submitted to them from a M/homer regarding the legality of A Frames, and their answer is below. These people are well versed in the legal aspects regarding towing, even down to pointing out that it is an offence to drive a braked trailer (which is what your car becomes on an A frame) without a break-a-way cable attached.

The first section deals with un-braked trailers (under 750 kgs) But the last section is the one that concerns this debate. i.e. 99.9% of all cars.

 

No doubt the article will not convince the die hards that they have never heard of anyone being convicted, therefore it can't be illegal, but it is written by the legal bods from an association that knows the law, and not an armchair expert who knows someone, who knows a friend.

 

I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit?

 

Sorry, no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal.

 

 

 

A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.