Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[Melvin]

Wellsgofar - 2009-03-05 10:24 PM

 

Hi everyone,

We don't seem to have had many vehicle reports re-engine mounts installation,

I haven't had the call yet, or have Fiat suspended this work due to their unsuccesful attempt.

An update from Fiat UK would be welcomed.

Regards

Alan

 

 

I had mine done, a move in the wrong direction, it would be intresting to know, if anyone is happy with the modification and has it cured their transmission judder, mine certainly did not ?

[kedavi]

Hi rolandrat,

 

Any prospective buyer should take any statement from any dealer that dismisses or minimises the effects of the X250 transmission problems with a very large pinch of salt. It does appear from what others have said too on this forum that there is a common approach of denial within the industry as a whole. I expect that this is a short sighted tactic to maintain sales of vehicles in difficult times. I understand that sales are remaining reasonable since many are opting to spend their savings since low interest rates mean next to no return in the banks.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with Fiat in the longer term following the huge damage that this is doing to them. I am sure that I am not alone in stating that I will not consider buying another Fiat based vehicle of any kind ever again unless this is sorted quickly and fully.

 

That said, I wonder how concerned Fiat actually are if they lose these sales? The market sector for motorhomes must only be a very small proportion of their overall global sales.

 

On your other question, I don't see the need for a list of affected motorhome manufacturers or products. Quite simply, anything built on a manual change X250 has an inherant design fault and should be considered highly suspect. Who the converter was is irrelevant if they have used this chassis.

 

Regards,

[AndyStothert]

If any of you are now thinking of the legal route (which is fraught with problems) the good news is that yesterday one of our number got a written undertaking from the the dealer who sold him the vehicle to refund all his purchase price.

I can't give all the details at this moment, well not until the dosh has been be handed over and motorhome given back, but will do so when possible.

No prizes for guessing what will become of the motorhome in question. Straight back on the forecourt?

 

Continuing with the legal note another owner is confident that that his household contents insurance has a clause in it which covers legal expense up to £50,000 and he sent the paperwork off yesterday to them.

There may also be another more specific way of getting directly at Fiat rather than the supplying dealer through this too, and we wait to see what they say. I'll let everyone know because this may be quite significant.

 

Our van goes in next week (again) to have the new engine mountings 'realigned', and to be honest I'm getting really quite p*ssed-off with all this messing about on a vehicle which has eaten two gearboxes and a clutch beforte getting to 20,000 miles. It is arguable, now that Fiat have admitted that there is a problem, that the 3 attempts they get under warranty conditidons to cure a fault are used up, and if I don't get an aggreeable conclusion to this lunacy next week then I will have a closer look at the warranty conditions. No doubt Fiat have been there before me, but may not have considered the four attempst they have now made (and five next week) to cure this problem.

 

[mike 202]

I can confirm that a household policy generally has a clause in it which covers legal expenses. I rang my insurer when I had a problem and received good advice which allowed me to approach the dealer in the correct manner and an amicable solution was reached.

[colinfrier]

Reading posts on those fortunate people who have Peugeot based vehicles the fix appears to be new gog in existing g box and modified clutch while not cheap not mega money.( what happened to new gbox and factory mods only ?)

This fix while not perfect ticks most of the boxes(excuse pun) and would make the vehicle acceptable costs to Peugeot a lot less than have been quoted so why don't FIAT bite the bullet and do the same.

I wonder just how many vehicles FIAT think they would have to fix properley 100.500.1000.5000. at say £1000 a fix even 5000 would only be £5 million small beer for FIAT.

The damage they are doing to their reputation must be over £5 million.

[diydoolittle]

clipped...................... I will have a closer look at the warranty conditions No doubt Fiat have been there before me, but may not have considered the four attempts they have now made (and five next week) to cure this problem.

 

Hi a few points to note if you are going down the legal route.

 

1. The warranty conditions. Please be aware that the warranty is IN ADDITION to your legal rights. The warranty conditions make absolutely NO difference to your right to pursue under sale of goods act. Your statutory rights exist over and above any guarantee.

2.Under the Sale of Goods Act you are allowed a reasonable length of time to check that the goods comply with requirements. This is a very short period of time. If the goods do not comply, you are entitled to reject them and claim a full refund. Once this acceptance period has passed, you may still be able to claim damages for any defects that appear during use up to a period of six years, dependant on the type of goods. Damages will normally amount to the cost of repairs and any other losses which arise directly from the fault.

 

3. You will not have any rights against the seller in the following circumstances: - You were told about the fault, but decided to purchase the goods anyway

[Losos]

kedavi - 2009-03-06 9:27 AM It does appear from what others have said too on this forum that there is a common approach of denial within the industry as a whole. I expect that this is a short sighted tactic to maintain sales of vehicles in difficult times.

Well I consider myself fortunate that I didn't start looking for a MH this time last year as I might well have ended up with a Fiat based vehicle. And you are correct, it was only when I saw I was getting virtualy no interest on my savings that my thoughts turned to MH'ing.

[PSHORT]

Does this mean that people who bought a MH after the fault came to light and known in MH circles would not come in the 6year sale of goods act. It could be argued they bought a faulty vehicle knowingly.

Maybe a warning to potential purchasers willing to take a chance, of which according to this forum there are a few, I certainly would not.

Looking forward still with some hope of FIAT fitting a new cog to my Morello gearbox.

I am still waiting for my Feb phone call from Fiat.

 

[diydoolittle]

PSHORT - 2009-03-07 9:39 AM

 

Does this mean that people who bought a MH after the fault came to light and known in MH circles would not come in the 6year sale of goods act. It could be argued they bought a faulty vehicle knowingly.

Maybe a warning to potential purchasers willing to take a chance, of which according to this forum there are a few, I certainly would not.

Looking forward still with some hope of FIAT fitting a new cog to my Morello gearbox.

I am still waiting for my Feb phone call from Fiat.

 

Not sure to be honest, have discovered through my legal journey that there is nothing definite in law, it's all open to individual interpretation!!

 

On the face of it though it does look as if you could be stuffed if you knowingly purchased one with a fault.

[AndyStothert]

It is now becoming clear just how big a hole Fiat have dug themselves, Peugeot, and us, with this monumentally simple design defect. And with this being a design defect they are all affected - whether the owners know it or not.

 

We all suspected - all along - that the only effective solution would be a completely re-designed gearbox because the existing casing would not accommodate a reverse gear cog any larger than first gear - which is what the now current production vehicles have.

Fiat have allowed this fact to leak out, without admitting it officially, in the hope that it will confuse buyers into thinking that they can now get a defect-free Ducato.

However, Peugeot aren't convinced that the modified box with a reverse gear identical to 1st is actually a complete solution, and that in an ideal world the reverse gear should be even lower for these applications. But this is the best Fiat can do at the moment, so that's how it is, and they feel that the risk of gearbox damage on steep gradients (up to 1in 4) have been eliminated. Unnecessary clutch abuse from a too-high reverse gear will definitely be reduced, but can't be dismissed completely even with the modified box.

Peugeot's doubts relate to the 3.5 ton vehicles, so quite how this translates to those even heavier is openly debatable.

So that is where it now stands. Even with the modified box the Ducato is a a flawed vehicle, and Fiat know it. Not as flawed as our existing vans, but they will still be producing a vehicle which is on the margins of being fit for the purpose.

The odd thing about being an owner trapped in this cock-up by Fiat is that if they had been straight and honest about it from the start then I'm sure everyone would have accepted it and been quite happy to talk about a compromise which suited all, but Fiat's dishonesty and deception throughout have almost become more important (and definitely more annoying) than the defect itself.

Do you want to help this unscrupulous company by buying one of their defective products? We hope not.

 

[libby]

 

I'm not a FIAT owner but rather suspect that a modified gear box with a larger diameter gear, as has been suggested, requires a modified gear box casting to accommodate the larger shaped item(s).

 

My thoughts then lead to will the different and 'expanded' shaped casing fit the present production models?

 

Its a few years since I've been working under vehicles but from what I recall every inch of space is taken up. I would assume that a larger diameter gear moves the shaft centres to a new position therefore changing the layout of all the gears and shafts.

 

And as I suggested some while ago I believe this will affect the chassis members regarding fixing points etc. In other words I see it as not possible to simply 'change a gear box' one for another.

 

This may then lead to the only result possible which would be a wholly re-designed vehicle chassis layout (as well).

 

I look forward to any corrections from that that I've suggested and again it would be interesting to hear a factual answer from FIAT.

 

That they do not answer only indicates that there is no answer.

 

A common principle seems to have been forgotten with FIAT's modern designers in that rearward drive should always be of a lower configaration than forward.

 

That's why many years ago car drivers would reverse up a steep hill.

 

My Email is published if FIAT wish to comment privately

 

Bill

[PSHORT]

I don't understand, they seem to be able to replace gearbox with lower reverse gear in Pugs.

[colinfrier]

Hi Andy

What are we saying here is the new production an old gearbox with a larger reverse cog? or is it a new design with the correct reverse ratio?

[colinfrier]

Another Victim quote taken from

 

thefiatforum.com

 

Have had new engine mounts, vehicle is now worse and Fiat dont want to know

 

[AndyStothert]

Colin, Paul and other sufferers,

 

Perhaps I didn't make things clear:

Fiat could just as easily replace the gearboxes as Peugeot. They are the same gearboxes, and Fiats have exactly the same defect as the Peugeots. It is just a case of Fiat refusing to change the gearboxes and attempting to divide and confuse folk with this multi-stage procedure. It is purely a cynical attempt to save money, and whilst the mounts can reduce the juddering on not-so-steep hills they cannot alter the basic laws of physics.

 

The new gearbox is the same casting and the only modification I know of is the lower ratio reverse gear (which means a bigger cog) but due to the design of both the internal layout and casting the biggest gear which could be fitted is the same size as 1st gear.

According to Peugeot (and we have to listen to them as Fiat won't tell us anything) this should be low enough to prevent gearbox damage on anything as steep as a 1 in 4. Obviously changing the engine mountings can make absolutely no difference to this potential to damage the gearbox.

However Peugeot reckon that the reverse gear ratio should ideally be a bit lower still, but that is not possible without (as Bill says) making huge changes to both the gearbox and other the structure.

But we all need thar lower ratio reverse gear at the very least.

[colinfrier]

So even on new production FIAT won't go the whole hog and eliminate any future problems typical I supose.

It may be that some minor mod is needed to the bodywork to accomodate the carbunkle on the gearbox but it's doable.

Also existing gearboxes could be modified with a bolt or weld on blister.

 

[PSHORT]

Thankyou Andy, I get it now, must have missed out somewhere the importance

of cog size. As I emailed you earlier I am still waiting for my Feb call but I have no intention of wasting time having engine mounts changed. I want the new lower gear. If Fiat don't do the decent thing in the end I shall go to a Pug garage and get it done paying myself if I have to. Fiat will of course be forbidden to be mentioned in my household and I will never venture into a Fiat vehicle again except my otherwise lovely Morello.

[colin]

colinfrier - 2009-03-07 7:02 PM

 

So even on new production FIAT won't go the whole hog and eliminate any future problems typical I supose.

It may be that some minor mod is needed to the bodywork to accomodate the carbunkle on the gearbox but it's doable.

Also existing gearboxes could be modified with a bolt or weld on blister.

 

Don't think so, about 9 months ago I guessed( ;-) ) that gearbox casing could not accomadate a lower reverse gear, only same as 1st. For some reason which I don't recall I was under impression a new box was in pipeline, it seems not now.

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi Again, Yesterday I took my Peugeot based Autocruise Stargazer along to the nearest "big" hill I could find , and did a number of reverse options on various parts of the gradient. Sadly no matter how large or small the gradient the dreaded judder was present.

 

I also called in at local Peugeot dealer as advised by Customer services, and the response was "categorically not true that Peugeot had a solution, and there is no instruction of any sort to dealers concerning gearbox changes or gear ratio changes" The dealer said that they were aware of complaints and I was told they would arrange to book in and test my vehicle.

 

Previous posts have claimed that Peugeot allegedly agreed a solution. Can anyone definitely confirm that statement and give me any form of reference number of relevant Peugeot document/ letter that I can take to my dealer to prove (or disprove) the truth or otherwise of the alleged solution, when I book it in for "investigation"

 

tonyg3nwl

[colin]

Can only give you this reply as printed in What Van

 

Ducato shares the same basic design as Peugeot’s Boxer and Citroën’s Relay, but the 2.3-litre diesel is unique to the Fiat. Reverse juddering has also affected Boxer, however, and Peugeot has come up with a different way of solving it.

 

 

“We were using a software download to deal with it, but things have now gone beyond that,” says a Peugeot spokesman. “If the vehicle is fitted with a six-speed gearbox then we’ll either change the reverse gear or replace the entire ’box depending on which final drive ratio has been specified. “We’ll have a similar fix available for the five-speed ’box in a few weeks time.”

 

 

Half-a-dozen or so six-speed ’boxes have been swapped so far and Boxer owners are being encouraged to contact their local Peugeot dealer if they believe they have a problem.

 

Or this thread from "the dark side"

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-61438.html

 

Makes you wonder why bother asking a Pug dealer as they don't seem to know whats going on, maybe you should contavt Pug customer care again.

 

 

 

[rolandrat]

Tonyq3nwl,

I was in my local Peugeot dealership getting a spare part for my ageing 405 estate and I ask if they were aware of the transmission problem on the latest 250 commercials and they replied that they were. I then asked them how they resolved the problem and they told me that they remove the gearbox and replace the reverse gear. The dealership is called Perrys on Churchill Way, Nelson. Phone number 01282 606606. I have been using this garage on and off for some considerable time and I will be very surprised if they are telling porkies. Good luck getting sorted.

[icdsun]

Hi

 

Had mountings changed Tuesday, it has masked the thump on startup and there is a slight decrease in judder, the stiffer mounts will mask more of the vibration , ultimately the result is the vehicle will not reverse without judder/vibration, my dealers have a short incline about 8 metres and my estimate near 1-8, with no clutch slipping the vehicle stalls on tickover.

I have had a response from Fiat regarding the failure of the stiffer mountings curing the judder, I am now told that the next stage is that a Fiat technician will visit the dealer to assist, the terchnician was awre of the requirements of ensuring correct alignment of the mountings which if incorrectly fitted can increase the judder, if it is necessary a further modification will be carried out. They would not comment on Peugeots position of rectification

 

Total waste of time fitting mountings as far as I'm concerned, but on the positive side it does not thump on startup after it stalls on a hill :->

 

Chris

[jhorsf]

i wonder how many auto box owners are happy or not with reversing situation?

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi Again.

 

For Andy's benefit, thanks for the personal mesage, tried to respond using reply link, but message is stuck in my outbox, and I dont know how to cause it to depart heading in your direction.

 

for benefit of all, Have been to dealer and arranged now for 11am tomorrow bookin.

Dealer says that their mechanic will test drive the van in their yard and report his findings. I protested that their yard is flat, not even a slope, and that I would insist on proper test in reverse up a hill. Dealer said it was not necessary, their test would be only one acceptable and they dont accept customer complaint as valid unless their test showed a fault.

 

They then stated that a Boxer loaded with 2 tons of bricks.... I asked the relevance of that story and told them I will insist on the reverse up a hill test. Could be very interesting time at 11am tomorrow.

 

They even claimed to have contacted Darren at customer services "yesterday" but still have no specific info re judder solution. However they agreed to raise a warranty sheet IF Their Test Shows Up a Problem.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

[colin]

tonyg3nwl - 2009-03-09 9:00 PM

 

Hi Again.

 

For Andy's benefit, thanks for the personal mesage, tried to respond using reply link, but message is stuck in my outbox, and I dont know how to cause it to depart heading in your direction.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

It will show in your 'outbox' untill andy reads it