yeti Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Hello Judderers. We need something to be done and bring this sorry affair to a wider audience and eventual conclusion. Can we start with the following. Your MP and MEP More importantly Gareth Thomas minister for consumer affairs his email; thomasgr@parliament.uk His department is the Department for Business Enterprise & Regulatory reform. I don't know how many of you,myself included have been sold a 'dud' vehicle but if you all wrote to Mr Thomas and the other Politicans may be some attention will be given to this sorry state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 The option of writing to various people and organisations about this matter has always been there, but what might make a bigger difference is if all those affected acted (and wrote) in unison. One way to achieve this would be to have very well written standard letters that would be well constructed, concise and pertinent and available for any of us to down load and use. If the letter templates could be constructed (or at least reviewed) by a 'legal eye' then better still. The series of letters could include one to gain publicity that might be sent to Watchdog or the various magazines, one to press the case with the stealerships and others in the industry, and maybe one to Peugeot or Fiat UK and their Italian master to demand a proper fix and some progress. All would be slightly different. Just thinking out loud here. Are there any solicitors or good letter writers on the forum who could have a go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Will (Ricky) They are all duff. An engineering design problem in a modern mass production vehicle is exactly that. There is no escaping this fact. If everyone conctacted their MP it would probably make no difference whatsoever, but it is probably worth everybody having at go at the minister. I shall do the same. Will's right though - this farce has now been going on for too long. As far as Watchdog is concerned many owners have informed them about this but it has become a bit fragmented with three manufacturers being involved and all this messing about Fiat are doing to make it seem that they are doing something when they aren't. Not simple enough for TV I suspect. Mine goes in tomorrow again and I will be pressing for an end to this endless faffing about. If there isn't an end in sight after this latest 'stage' then a re-think about how to resolve matters will be called for on a personal basis. I will let you all know what Fiat's latest deception or procrastination process turns out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 tonyg3nwl - 2009-03-09 9:00 PM Hi Again. For Andy's benefit, thanks for the personal mesage, tried to respond using reply link, but message is stuck in my outbox, and I dont know how to cause it to depart heading in your direction. for benefit of all, Have been to dealer and arranged now for 11am tomorrow bookin. Dealer says that their mechanic will test drive the van in their yard and report his findings. I protested that their yard is flat, not even a slope, and that I would insist on proper test in reverse up a hill. Dealer said it was not necessary, their test would be only one acceptable and they dont accept customer complaint as valid unless their test showed a fault. They then stated that a Boxer loaded with 2 tons of bricks.... I asked the relevance of that story and told them I will insist on the reverse up a hill test. Could be very interesting time at 11am tomorrow. They even claimed to have contacted Darren at customer services "yesterday" but still have no specific info re judder solution. However they agreed to raise a warranty sheet IF Their Test Shows Up a Problem. tonyg3nwl This is wrong, I would contact Justin at Fiat, the dealers have to adhere to strict guideline, like my experience, it would appear some dealers are less than intrested. Mine has to retested at another dealer. Carefully read your 2 year European- Pan warranty, and make you own mind up, it makes intesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Please don't go down the "standard letter" route as MP's are inundated with such things. Far better is: Decide what you want the Consumer Minister to do. Write to him with 1 page of A4 saying what you need, what the problem is and why you need his intervention and the outcome you want from FIAT. All affected X250 owners support the initiative by writing to their MPs individually as follows: Get the MP's title and form of address right (House of Commons Public Information Office will supply this information as will the website or your MP's Constituency Office.) E.g. Rt. Hon. etc. Be polite! If you are using hard copy "top and tail" by hand i.e. the Dear Mr. Smith and Yours sincerely, Frederick Blogs bits. It's your MP so use the "Dear Title, Name" and "Your sincerely" forms rather than the more formal. In 1 page of A4 say in the introduction what the problem is, that you tried to resolve it yourself without success and now need their help. In no more than 8 short bullet points set out the issues and conclude with a short paragraph stating what you want your MP to do. I suggest that is to write to the Consumer Minister asking him to investigate. You can all agree the key points but put them in your own words. The aim is for the Minister and MPs to gain the perception that there is a real and substantial problem and that there is a groundswell of discontent at unfair treatment of powerless consumers by a large Corporation, requiring political and legal intervention by the Government. Keep it personal, factual and realistic. Don't do MPs and MEP's at the same time. Start with Westminster and see how it goes. (There is still rivalry between MPs and MEPs and MPs in particular don't like both to be involved at the same time.) I suggest Andy emerges as "leader" and seeks to have his MP lead on this if he/she is sympathetic. He could then request a meeting with the Minister with the support of MPs. If a group of MPs take an interest, think about an Early Day Motion and Parliamentary Questions (your MP will know how to do this.) If you get the opportunity think hard on content and don't squander the chances. Don't ignore the possibility of identiftying Peers in the Upper House who may be interested in helping. Remember that you have an absolute right to go to the Houses of Parliament and lobby your MP in person. You will be admitted to Central Lobby to do this but obviously it is better to arrange an appointment with your MP at his/her constituency office. You can also lobby peers. There may even be several who are skilled engineers who would rise to the challenge. The Lords library should be able to help with CV type info on peers to guide your research. Good luck. If I think of anything else I'll post again. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Mr Thomas is the right man for consumer affairs issues: http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/hmg.cfm#101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Picking up on Kedavi's point about communication. Once you identify the correct Minister you write to him/her directly as the Minister concerned - getting the title etc right as I said earlier. Your are addressing the Office rather than the man and he responds accordingly. E.g Dear Minister, Dear Secretary of State etc. The point Kedavi made earlier about Ministers not responding to mail at the House of Commons from non-constituents refers to a strict convention that MP's who receive correspondence from other MP's constituents simply refer the communication to the correct MP. It's not unreasonable as it would be impracticable and inefficient to do otherwise. That's why you write to the Ministerial Office if it is a Ministerial matter and only to the same person at the House of Commons if they happen to be your MP. All Ministers who are not members of the Upper House have a dual existence as MP and Minister and there is separation between the two roles. Hence Ministers have their own offices in their Constituency and in the House plus a Ministerial Office. If you follow the guide in my earlier post, you won't go far wrong. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Andy. I dont know if anyone is aware of this site, but it might be of some use to you. It is still well worth looking at for other problems you may have. www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk Good luck. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Hi Again. Update from me re judder and 11am appointment. I went armed with Caravan club update note published Sept last year. Checked in at appointed hour, and was asked to handover keys for test in (very crowded) flat yard. Refused to hand over keys and insisted that I would take the mechanic as observer on test drive. Minor dispute but eventually won the point. Took the technician to nearest reasonable slope (previously checked out as somewhat suitable, but certainly not in 1in10 category), and demonstrated successfully that judder was in evidence. Technician then took control and demonstrated that he too had same result. Much discussion re another vehicle that he had previously been asked to check, but he had not been breifed adequately as to how to carry out tests. Accepted that peugeot should define adequate test conditions, and agreed that my vehicle displayed relevant symptoms HOORAY. Back to dealers place and report to be written and forwarded to Peugeot for their response and hopefully relevant action. (warranty claim form??? Dealer will fax report to Peugeot and they will then contact me direct. Now awaiting communication from Peugeot. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Here is an update on my posting of 3rd March (page 1 of this thread) to various motorhome manufacturers regarding their comments on the problems. I have not had any replies (apart from an aknowledgement from Swift saying they would reply within 3 working days). Here is my original enquiry below to .............................. Autosleeper ... IH ... Swift ... Autocruise ... Auto Trail Dear Sir I would like to hear your comments on the problems experienced by many owners of X250 based motorhomes in respect of both reversing up a steep hill and water ingress to the engine compartment. As an example, take a look at the MMM Forum at: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14995&posts=28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Well my X250 Burstner Solano t700 2.3 multi jet is now booked into FIAT Malaga for Monday 16.03.09 they say they now have the parts?.I asked if I could pick up the vehicle latter the same day but they said they would want it for a week? could I be lucky and get a Peugeot type fix watch this space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Tomorrow is something of a decision day in this long running fiasco as I'm taking my van in again and will be discussing it with a Fiat HQ technician and one of Fiat's managers. In the case of my vehicle we are now at the last stage of either they fix it or they don't. The history of this vehicle's transmission woes are simple - two replacement gearboxes (one damaged whilst reversing up a steep hill) a replacement clutch (cooked whilst reversing up a steep hill and driven by a Fiat technician) and right now awaiting another replacement gearbox, as it is rattling louder than the engine. And tomorrow they have to decide whether to install the lower ratio reverse gear or tell me there's nothing wrong with it? By tomorrow night we may have a clearer picturer of what Fiat's real intentions are in this matter. PS. There is no way I'm being any kind of leader in anything . Find somebody better looking and less nervy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Usinmyknaus - 2009-03-10 9:27 AM Good luck. If I think of anything else I'll post again. Bob Bob, reading your post above it would seem to me that you've done this kind of thing before :-) IMO anyone contemplating getting Parliament involved could not do better than follow the advice above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Andy Why not get Marion to be the 'leader'? She could strip off like she did on your holiday on a beach, and run around with a placard carefully placed to cover up the 'naughty bits' so as not to scare the wildlife! I'm sure that would get the press's attention! :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-03-10 8:02 AM Will (Ricky) They are all duff. An engineering design problem in a modern mass production vehicle is exactly that. There is no escaping this fact. If everyone conctacted their MP it would probably make no difference whatsoever, but it is probably worth everybody having at go at the minister. I shall do the same. ................. Not sure I entirely agree with that. If you write to your MP, he will refer the query to a minister. That way both MP and minister get to hear of the problem. It is probable that a lot of MPs would be contacted, if only everyone would write. Thus, some MPs would get several letters, so the issue would lodge in quite a lot of minds.Having said that, I would urge against sending "standard" letters - I think these irritate as they are too obviously part of a campaign. I think individually written letters, complaining about the treatment that has been meted out by Fiat, the dealerships, and the motorhome manufacturers collectively, and seeking a change in the law to make warranties part of sales contracts, to establish rights of redress against manufacturers as well as retailers, would be more productive. Just writing with a whinge about faulty goods won't really get the right message across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 There may be some progress in the air. I took my van into the dealers today went for a test run with one of the Fiat technicians, who seemed both honest and open minded. we went to the usual 'test hill' which is both steep enough to show what the problem is and safe enough not to take any risks, and he agreed that the reversing performance on a hill is woeful. I was offered no bulls**t or meaningless platitudes, and the Zone Manager from Fiat has informed me that they will now order the necessary parts and fit them as soon as possible. Hopefully these will rectify the problem. When these parts arrive I will relate exactly what they are, but the Fiat manager told me they are a lower ratio reverse gear kit, and a modified clutch. Those of you are unhappy with the performance of the modified engine mountings, and are due to move to the next phase, but don't feel that they have a full grasp of the technical issues to represent themselves to the Fiat technicians can email me for some useful info. Of course it does involve steep hills, but is there anything worthwhile in life which doesn't? Except possibly a glass of Talisker, which may pass my lips tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Is this the light at the end of the tunnel or the oncoming train? Well if FIAT can now see the wood for the trees why faff about changing engine mounts in the first place it only costs them more. Andy will you get your old mount re fitted when they do this work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Andy, That is very good news :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 colinfrier - 2009-03-11 4:54 PM Andy will you get your old mount re fitted when they do this work? .......................................................... Colin I don't think fag ash needs it, She looked quite tasty to me in the mag. :D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mostly doris Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Hello I thought you all might be interested to hear that I have had the new modified Fiat gear box fitted to my 2.3 motorhome today, I will let you know how it has turned out and how it came about very soon.Fingers crossed please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinC Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Had the engine mounts fitted to my Rapido yesterday. Collected and tested it this morning. I made sure that I did before and after tests in the same places with the same mechanic. There has been no improvement. The garage say they will send a report to Fiat technical dept. In the meantime I have written to Fiat expressing my dissatisfaction at the failure of the engine mounting procedure and requesting the clutch/reverse gear modification. Very pleased at Andy Stothert's news; and intrigued that Mostly Doris has actually had a modified Fiat gearbox fitted to a 2.3 van. Do tell us more.... Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthmover Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Hi Guys, Anyone know what the latest situation is regarding the 3Ltr version of the X250 gearbox/clutch/judder/bonk ?. Speaking to Justin Westenedge at the Feb NEC show, he claimed that they are STILL testing the 3Ltr jobby. When I said that I thought they all shared the same gearbox (6/Speed) and what else was there to test?. He replied I don,t know I am not an Engineer!!. Is he a mushroom perhaps, Kept in the dark and fed bull----. Some PR Man. Em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I also have a 3litre and am awaiting, eagerly, a reply Perhaps it will come Justin time-groan. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Earthmover The 6-speed gearbox fitted to 3.0litre Fiat Ducato motors is quite different in design to the 6-speed 'box used with the 2.3litre powerplant. I'm pretty sure this has been emphasised in earlier forum 'juddering' threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Did you see on last nights News, a group of Ford Transit owners went in convoy to Fords plant in Brentwood to complain about a fault with their new Transit vans? It seemed that they were having to replace their front tyres every 6000 miles or so. As many of them were used as work vans, this was proving to be very expensive. Although this story is on a much smaller scale, (the vans were limited edition "sports" models) the owners had contacted BBC three counties radio and no doubt the publicity was a deciding factor in Fords offering to pay 60% towards the cost of new tyres. Not a huge victory considering how short a time the new tyres would probably last, but at least Ford were publicly acknowledging that there seemed to be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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