everhopeful Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 euroserv - 2009-03-19 6:33 PM The 'H' symbol is not nearly as sinister as that. It does enable the dealer to re-set it at pdi but it will only go up to 100 miles before it cannot be zeroed. I can't see the point of it really because I don't think that a vehicle showing up to 100 miles would put anyone off or reduce it's aparrent 'newness' It is what it is though and it cannot be abused or hide a chequered past. Nick I was once guaranteed that a new car would be delivered on a transporter, but it wasn't, and had 100 miles on the clock. I bought it anyway but had so much trouble that a new engine was eventually fitted. That 100 miles must have been flat out to cause the problems, and caused me 12mths of constant grief. So how do I now know that my van with low delivery mileage hasn't had similar treatment? I was passed on the motorway last week by an unregistered van that must have been doing 90. This stinks :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Libby,I was involved in mechanical testing in an environmental laboratory and my report that " There was no damage sustained during the test" was changed to read " No damage Was Observed during the test" in other words I could have been asleep for some of the time because if the item failed in service it did not matter as no damage was observed, Did Not mean that there wasn't any. My old bosses must have transferred to Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevef Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Hi All long suffering Fiat owners. Would appreciate if anybody could post the results of having the new gearbox and clutch assembly work done. Does it work! Any improvement? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthmover Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Hi Derek, Thanks for that, I must admit that I was under the impression that all the six speeders were the same. The Pr man was honest enough to say he did not know, which I found surprising, with all the questions he as had to fend over the last 15 months or so. In two of this months Motor Home magazines there are quite lengthy updates on the engine mountings/gearbox situation. with both Mags stressing several times, that VERY few motor homes are afflicted by the reversing problem?. The one report could well have been written by Fiat and given to the Magazine to publish. Does anyone actually know what percentage of Ducato's/ Boxers, are struck down the gearbox malaise?. A few, Hundreds, Thousands?. Em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 yeti - 2009-03-18 10:57 AM I entirely agree.My AT was bought new in June and the clutch 'cooked' after 200 miles reversing onto a campsite pitch. If convertors have been 'persuaded' to use the Sevel chassis,it would seem like a good deal to them. But I think it should not have been released without a thorough testing. It is a chassis 'specialy built and designed' for motorhomes,the testing should have include positioning test loads and the various locations on the chassis to emulate a conversion. Not only the converters but the dealers should also be expressing their concern. The other day news broke that the pension fund I am in is sueing RBS and Sir Fred. This is because they were invited to invest and were told 'everything is fine' when in reality the bank was on the verge of in solvency. Now consider this senario;we have a new chassis specially built for motorhome conversions,does it work under load conditions?.....er yes! Same thing as I see it. thats what i call a large pitch 200 mile lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Em As Andy Stothert has emphasised repeatedly, if (as now seems to have been accepted by Fiat and Peugeot) the primary cause of the X/250 Ducato/Boxer transmission-related problems is an unsuitably-high reverse-gear ratio, then every vehicle (motorhome or 'commercial') so far built on these chassis has the inherent potential to be afflicted by the defect. That some chassis variants are likely to more prone than others is to be expected given that motors and gear-ratios do differ betwen variants. But, as all these vehicles are mass-produced, it's very hard to see why 10, 100, or 1000 motorhomes having exactly the same motor and transmission should react differently when being reversed. It does need saying that Andy's '1-in-4 hill' test is severe. This is a 25% slope - rarely found on public roads - and it would horrify me to be asked to try to hill-start my high-geared Hobby (forwards or backwards) on such a steep incline as I'd rate the chances of over-stressing the Hobby's clutch as virtually inevitable. In terms of the number of motorcaravanners who have COMPLAINED officially to Fiat/Peugeot about the reversing problem, I'm sure that the figure is tiny compared to the number of Ducato/Boxer chassis produced so far, or even compared to the number of X/250-based motorhomes sold. But that's completely different to saying that only a small number of motorhomes have the defect. If they all have the high reverse-gear ratio, then starting/reversing up a steep slope will be equally challenging and the effect of doing so should (in principle) be the same for all vehicles sharing the same specification. If some non-Maxi chassis Ducatos with the 2.3litre motor have shown a tendency to destroy their gearboxes when reversing up a 25% incline, then all non-Maxi chassis Ducatos with the 2.3litre motor must be considered vulnerable when asked to do the same thing., etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Derek has just about summed up the answer to the oft asked question of 'is mine affected'. However ours actually damaged the gearbox on a slope specified on the map as being a 1 in 6, and perhaps more significantly ours is a medium wheelbase panel van which weighs in at 2700kg fully kitted up for touring. Ours doesn't judder or show any distressing symptoms until it is put on a steep slope, where it then becomes obvious that there isn't sufficient torque being developed by the engine at a speed slow enough for safe reversing - so it vibrates and causes the damage. Obviously with gravity being what it is the heavier they are the worse the problem becomes. This however is complicated by the 3 litre models which do have a different box, and much more torque lower in the rev range, so can handle the reverse gear ratio problem in some cases because Fiat claim they can be specified with various differential ratios - which again will change the reverse gear ratio, and thus the chance of wrecking the clutch or gearbox. I all that clear? Not really, and we have no dependable data to confirm this on the 3 litre models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 At the risk of repeating myself and boring everyone;my model is a 3litre 6-speed and it juddered and cooked the clutch,it also thumps on start up. As for severity of hills on public roads,there are plenty Just look at the yellow roads in O.S. maps with black chevrons on them,places I go to. They are in areas like Wales,Scotland and Yorkshire (Sutton Bank). The late John Hunt had a favourite test hill near Marlborough and that fitted the bill and it was also on an A-road. I am still waiting for a date for the rectification to my vehicle. Be warned FIAT/AutoTrail and the dealers, my wife this weekend started to rattle her sabre-I feel a very strong letter coming on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Yeti Just out of interest, which Auto-Trail motorhome model do you own, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Derek I have the Frontier Scout derivative with the 3litre engine and 6 speed box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Yeti A bad omen for other owners then, as your Scout, on single rear-axle, Al-Ko 'maxi' chassis ought (on paper) be as resistant to the transmission problems as any X/250 Ducato coachbuilt motorhome with the 3.0litre motor and manual gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 I had a Peugeot 3 litre Alko single wheel chassis van on test three weeks ago for MMM and it juddered and vibrated very badly in reverse on the 'test hill'. The source, as with the 2.3 litre vans, is purely a reverse gear ratio which is too high for a vehicle such as this. I asked Peugeot what was to be done with the 3 litre versions and was told that a a modified box would be available from Fiat about now, but after a couple of Peugeot 3 litre owners had the clutch changed recently and were told that this was the definitive 'cure' (and found it wasn't) things seem a little up in the air again. Have any of the Fiat 3 litre owners had a comment from Fiat recently about the state of play with their vans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-03-23 10:52 AM I had a Peugeot 3 litre Alko single wheel chassis van on test three weeks ago for MMM and it juddered and vibrated very badly in reverse on the 'test hill'. The source, as with the 2.3 litre vans, is purely a reverse gear ratio which is too high for a vehicle such as this. I asked Peugeot what was to be done with the 3 litre versions and was told that a a modified box would be available from Fiat about now, but after a couple of Peugeot 3 litre owners had the clutch changed recently and were told that this was the definitive 'cure' (and found it wasn't) things seem a little up in the air again. Have any of the Fiat 3 litre owners had a comment from Fiat recently about the state of play with their vans? Still waiting Andy although we still get the usual platitudes saying they are aware of our case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Re the April issue of MMM on page 181 item, FIAT FIX PROGRESS REPORT, it says'Peugoet are committed to fixing any reverse judder problem' This is not true a similar item appeared in MMM late last year and more recently in What Van. I have a letter approx 10 days old that states peugeot have no fix for the 2.2L 5 speed and all they can offer is a ECU software download that MIGHT work. Since that letter I have tried to get more information but it appears Peugeot have stopped replying to my e-mails. I feel it is wrong that MMM continue to publish information that is wrong,all they are doing is helping Peugeot spin out the PR that they want and the problem is just defferred to a later date. I do understand Peugeot are helping to fix the 6 speed box and Fiat have a Helpline and seem to want to help customers with various fixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 urbanracer - 2009-03-23 3:45 PM I feel it is wrong that MMM continue to publish information that is wrong,all they are doing is helping Peugeot spin out the PR that they want and the problem is just defferred to a later date. I think you will find that all magazine editorial staff have always said that they are 'conduit' for manufacturers press releases. They do not have the resources to carry out detailed investigations so one has to become adept at 'reading between the lines' and frankly just ignoring a lot of the so called 'news' items.Often a publication will include a 'New Product' section, be very careful before buying on the basis of a 'new product' press release, after all they are hardly going to say anything negative about the product are they ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I have a letter approx 10 days old that states peugeot have no fix for the 2.2L 5 speed and all they can offer is a ECU software download that MIGHT work so wrote urban racer. I can confirm that Peugeot told me the same last Friday, but in my case the information was pointless as I have a 6 speed box on my van Autocruise Stargazer. My local dealer confirmed today that he will be able to get the van into his workshop to do the work, as and when he can get the necessary parts. His access door is height limited to 2.9 metres and van is quoted as being 2.85 metres. His "measurement" today was "just possible", even if he had to reduce tyre pressure to gain an inch or so ! His next parts delivery is Friday 27th and he hopes that parts will be arriving then. I await with abated breath. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 re Judder etc, Can anyone explain what is special about judder being only evident in reverse gear. Has anyone tried going forward uphill starting in second gear ? does this display a similar effect, and if not then why not. the allegation regarding wrong ratio must surely apply. I tried it today, and starting in second didnt show the symptoms, but reverse does. Why . any brains out there. Hopefully mine will soon be fixed anyway see previous post, but I am at a loss for explaining the difference. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 tonyg3nwl - 2009-03-23 8:48 PM ... His access door is height limited to 2.9 metres and van is quoted as being 2.85 metres. His "measurement" today was "just possible", even if he had to reduce tyre pressure to gain an inch or so ! tonyg3nwl Tony - do NOT trust the 'quoted' height of your van! Measure it very carefully yourself as it doesn't always take into account all the sticky-up bits on the roof of the main motorhome and you don't want to hear a loud crunch and then think "Oh dear ... I should've got my tape measure out!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Mel, I dont trust my measurement, nor his, thats why I too it to them to try and see if it would fit. I thought they were going to offer it up carefully to see if it would go in their workshop. Instead they got out a tape measure and "carefully" measured. They have been warned and will be held liable if they damage it. ! The highest point is the tv aerial. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 tonyg3nwl - 2009-03-23 9:01 PM re Judder etc, Can anyone explain what is special about judder being only evident in reverse gear. Has anyone tried going forward uphill starting in second gear ? does this display a similar effect, and if not then why not. the allegation regarding wrong ratio must surely apply. tonyg3nwl I said something like that when this tragic saga began and it was thought that the clutch-design might be the main suspect. My argument was that, as the clutch rotated and operated in exactly the same way irrespective of the vehicle's direction of travel, it should not (logically) be causing the transmission vibration. However, when a vehicle is reversed, the mechanical stresses involved do differ from when it is moved forwards. The drive-shafts are rotating in the opposite direction, and the complete engine/transmission unit and its mountings are being 'twisted' in the opposite direction. From the driver's seat, it's also a lot harder when reversing (particularly on a steep slope) to maintain the subtle balance needed to move in a controlled manner without either stalling the motor or over-heating the clutch. When a large-ish vehicle's mechanical specification includes a small-ish transverse motor, FWD, 'soft' engine mountings, a turbo-diesel with little torque at low engine-revs, a clutch and (in the case of the 6-speed gearbox fitted to non-3.0 litre motors) a transmission that seem to be a mite delicate, plus an uncomfortably high reverse-gear ratio, then - with the benefit of hindsight - it's hardly surprising that there have been problems. As your motorhome exhibits the reversing defect, you could probably get it to do it going forward if you were sufficiently sadistic. Try starting on a nice steep slope (say 1-in-6), select 2nd gear and then feed in clutch and power simultaneously while deliberately keeping the engine-revs as low as you can. That should do it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 It is always interesting to read different ideas, causes and solutions to this sorry state of affairs and some of them may well be totally correct, however the fact remains that:- !!! FIAT have not resolved the current situation with a consistent and well publicised programme for all of those effected !!! It would be nice if dealers issued a warning to every potential customer, but that will never happen, ditto the manufacturers keep on supplying potentially defective product. Unfortunately most people that I have spoken to re the judder, take the attitude that I am insulting them and their motorhome and that I should keep my comments to myself. I think that this self denial is helping mask the problem and playing into the guilty parties hands. Where will it all end ? probably in court and more motorhomers getting despondent and giving up our hobby/lifestyle for good which is the really sad effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbocj Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Having owned (not proud) a 2.3 for the last 22months, I have kept in touch with this subject morning, noon and night (retired) I am almost lost for words as to how we are being treated, FIAT must think we come from the third world "bowl of rice should keep them quite for a few more weeks" How long does it take for the Italian artists to handcraft an engine mount, a complete waste of time and money anyhow! Surely with the downturn in the world motor market, garages would be in the best possible position to carry out the modifications enabling them to keep their workforce and possibly make a small profit (depending on how much FIAT would pay them). I have today spoke to a garage that would probably carry out work on my M/H and they, todate have not carried out ANY modifications and have NO instructions to do ANY work to ANY vehicle. "I give up" and I'm sure that's their tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 My van is booked in Monday for a modified clutch and gearbox modifications, they need the van for 3 days, they are supplying a courtesy car, hopefully, the mods should minimise the reversing problems and this is the end of the problems. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Melvin When its done test it and report back please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 This long running fiasco has taken another farcical turn today when Fiat confirmed that one of the parts supplied in the 'kit' to fix these vehicles is actually only really suitable for LHD vehicles. So a halt has been called to the programme whilst Fiat scratch their collective heads again. As usual Fiat did not really volunteer this information and they haven't (as far as I know, and definitely not in my case) told anyone whose vans are meant to be getting sorted out this week, but that's where it's at now - the solution is called off, again. Any owner who has had the work done really does need to take their vehicle back to the dealer and get them to check the clutch actuator pipe is the correct one for a RHD vehicle, because we now think the correct part doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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