Syd Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Anyone have any idea's At what age should you start thinking about replacing the house wall ties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Syd - 2009-12-12 2:10 PM Anyone have any idea's At what age should you start thinking about replacing the house wall ties Not sure which ones you mean Syd, the only wall ties we have are in the cavities and not accessible for replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 malc d - 2009-12-12 2:49 PM Syd - 2009-12-12 2:10 PM Anyone have any idea's At what age should you start thinking about replacing the house wall ties Not sure which ones you mean Syd, the only wall ties we have are in the cavities and not accessible for replacement. Hi Malc d Yes they are the ones that I mean, they rust over time and need replacing after so many years, just not sure how long the recomemded time period is Good selling point as I understand it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 One of my Sons was told his wall ties needed replacing when he bought a 1937 built house, that was about 10 years ago, I think but not sure a builder said that if you have cavity wall insulation you dont need them replacing!! that might not be true so I would check if I were you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 There is no fixed age. It depends on the condition of the ties. Generally, the ties are inserted at 18"/450mm intervals horizontally, and 9"/225 mm vertically, staggered. So, they form a diamond pattern within the wall, with the points of the diamonds 18" apart both vertically and horizontally. Older walls, dating from before the second world war may vary as the convention took some time to become established.Earlier ties may be bitumen coated or galvanized, post approximately 1960 they should all be galvanised. Since about 1980 they have tended to be stainless steel. The biggest problem is in areas where fly ash from steel works was incorporated into the mortar. This is acidic, and corrodes the ties, especially the bitumen coated variety. Similar problems arise in areas of high rainfall, and exposed to sea spray - so all those lovely seaside cottages on the South and West coasts.The clue to trouble is a series of horizontal cracks in the mortar joints, approximating to the above diamond pattern, caused by the part of the tie embedded in the outer skin of the wall expanding as it rusts.The only cure is replacement, usually carried out using stainless steel expanding bolts with an expanding head both ends. They are inserted into holes drilled through the outer skin, across the cavity, and about 60% through the inner skin. The drill holes are then plugged with mortar leaving the wall stabilised and with little external evidence of the work having been done. A scaffold tower, a lot of drills and stainless steel bolts, and a lot of time is required, so it ain't cheap!Maggy, don't use that "builder" for anything important, will you? That is the most idiotic comment I have heard for years, and is not even based on intelligent guess work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I wouldn't attempt it after the age of about 50 - get a man in! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 What makes you think they need replacing Syd? I assume you have Googled for some answers already and are now desperate enough to ask us random mob of dysfunctional ramblers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 Our house was built about 40/45 years ago, I am now, after the festive season is over, getting the damp proofing done (first quote £1300) and thought that this would also be a good idea, (first quote is £1300) plus the guttering and eaves facia (third quote £700) May have some roof work looked at too So I thought that for a mere £3300 we would have complete peace of mind. My ultimate aim is to have the house as self sufficient as posible in order to get its running costs down below what the DHSS etc will pay for my sons care while living still here in the home that he is used to rather than being in a strange hostel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 maggyd - 2009-12-12 4:07 PM One of my Sons was told his wall ties needed replacing when he bought a 1937 built house, that was about 10 years ago, I think but not sure a builder said that if you have cavity wall insulation you dont need them replacing!! that might not be true so I would check if I were you. Brian Kirby - 2009-12-12 5:33 PM Maggy, don't use that "builder" for anything important, will you? That is the most idiotic comment I have heard for years, and is not even based on intelligent guess work! That would depend on the type of cavity wall insulation used. If it was a polyurathene foam injected in, then this is sometimes used to 'shore up' a wall with corroded wall ties i.e. it laminates the two walls together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 colin - 2009-12-12 9:09 PM maggyd - 2009-12-12 4:07 PM One of my Sons was told his wall ties needed replacing when he bought a 1937 built house, that was about 10 years ago, I think but not sure a builder said that if you have cavity wall insulation you dont need them replacing!! that might not be true so I would check if I were you. Brian Kirby - 2009-12-12 5:33 PM Maggy, don't use that "builder" for anything important, will you? That is the most idiotic comment I have heard for years, and is not even based on intelligent guess work! That would depend on the type of cavity wall insulation used. If it was a polyurathene foam injected in, then this is sometimes used to 'shore up' a wall with corroded wall ties i.e. it laminates the two walls together. Wow thanks for that Colin!! I was feeling well and truly slapped down for that! I knew I hadn't imagined it, and you do think when the builder in question did build his roof conversion I was getting worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Unless there is firm evidence to suggest that your walls needed re-tying Syd my inclination would be not to worry about it? However if it does really concern you long term why not just earmark a portion of your savings to cover such an event in the future - after all it may never happen? With great respect Syd, surely their are enough things of concern already in your life without the need to develop more - and I say this out of friendship not sarcasm as I try and avoid a misunderstanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 colin - 2009-12-12 9:09 PM .........That would depend on the type of cavity wall insulation used. If it was a polyurathene foam injected in, then this is sometimes used to 'shore up' a wall with corroded wall ties i.e. it laminates the two walls together. It would indeed, Colin, but the type of foam used for insulation is not the type used for reinforcing walls. General foam insulation is much less dense, and would have no benefit at all for wall stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 maggyd - 2009-12-13 1:06 PM .......Wow thanks for that Colin!! I was feeling well and truly slapped down for that! I knew I hadn't imagined it, and you do think when the builder in question did build his roof conversion I was getting worried. It wasn't intended as a slap down Maggy - I'm sorry if it seemed so. The type of foam Colin refers to is specific to wall stabilisation. It is not a general insulant, though it provides some insulation once installed. Your comment was that the builder had said cavity insulation might act to replace corroded ties. Except in the case Colin mentions, which so far as I know is not particularly widespread, that is not correct and "normal" insulation, whether polyethylene beads - adhesive bonded or not, chopped glass or mineral fibre, urea formaldehyde foam or other foam, including polyurethane foam, unless formulated to the necessary density for stabilisation purposes, cavity wall insulants do not impart any greater stability to walls once installed. To suggest otherwise would be misleading, and that appeared to be the general suggestion this builder had made. I'm sure the man (presumably) in question knows what he knows; the problem arises with what he doesn't know, but still is prepared to comment upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 maggyd - 2009-12-13 1:06 PM Wow thanks for that Colin!! I was feeling well and truly slapped down for that! I knew I hadn't imagined it, and you do think when the builder in question did build his roof conversion I was getting worried. No problem, here's a link to explain how the foam is used to stabilise walls and insulate. Sounds like your sons builder knows his business and was not going to quote for unessary work. http://www.bufca.co.uk/applications/cavity_wall.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Well as that seems to be the case reading that :-S it would be a much better idea to have that done sooner than later, thus preventing trouble in the future, and I think most people these days have cavity wall insulation dont you. Our bungalow was already done when we bought it, but we did get Rock Wool insulation in our last house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hi, You can get a man to come along, drill a few holes, use a "doctor's" inspection device to look inside your cavity. A lot of council houses were done in the Swansea Valley about 10 to 12 years go ...... then the tenents started to chunter about wanting the cement plugs painted over. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Syd, The device used to inspect inside a cavity wall is I think called an endescope which you can hire from a tool hire shop all that is required is a 20mm hole drilled here and there to see what the condition of your wall ties are in. If you get a man in to do it he is going to say your ties need renewing in order to get the job??? If, from a visual inspection your brickwork looks in good shape and shows no bulges I would leave well alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this post, you have all been most helpful. The outcome is that there is no set timescale for replacing them As we have wall insulation in the cavity we will need to have a brick removed to have a look at a tie but even so the ties will probably need replacing within the next 20/30 years when I wont be around to meet the invoice so while the house is upside down from the damp proofing I think I will get them replaced with stainless steel ones on the grounds that the invoice will be bigger later on than it will be at presant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Definitely get that brick taken out first! If the existing ties are galvanized, and still in good condition i.e. the zinc is still there and there is no evidence of rust, then I'd be inclined to leave well alone. Adding the drilled ties to the existing will degrade the insulation with no material advantage. Instead of having unnecessary work carried out, why not deposit the present estimated cost into a "sinking" fund, and invest it somewhere? Then, if it's never needed for the wall, it can be used for something else that no-one has yet thought of.Personally, I don't like the polyurethane foam idea for the roof. Their suggestion shows all roof ventilation blocked which, with fibre insulation between the joists, it is absolutely essential to maintain. I don't believe their claim for reduced condensation on the underside of the roof covering, this may be true for tiles, which are slightly porous, but with natural or synthetic slates I would expect to be made worse. I'm also dubious that using the product in cavity walls in areas of high rainfall would be good. The presence of a bonded insulant, always assuming they avoid fissures in the foam - which has always tended to dog foam insulants - the material will prevent the outer skin drying into the cavity, meaning it will get, and stay, wetter, making it more prone to frost action, and accelerating the corrosion of any remaining tie ends. Not, I'm afraid, a remedy I would choose, despite the claims and its apparent simplicity.If anyone is interested, whereas inspecting ties with an endoscope is entirely practical, it is only of value to either confirm the extent of corrosion already apparent from the crack pattern in the wall, or to confirm whether the ties are galvanized, bitumen coated or, as I forgot to mention above, merely painted. The corrosion that is damaging generally takes place within the depth of the outer skin, not within in the cavity itself, and it would be very unusual to be able to see this before the crack pattern is visible. The most vulnerable point is just inside the outer skin on the cavity side, where wet has soaked through the bricks, and there is sufficient oxygen present to promote corrosion of the steel ties.If an independent building surveyor is employed to use the endoscope, there is no danger he will suggest the ties need replacing where they do not. He works for a fee, which you pay. He gives you a report, and you the act on his findings, or not, as you choose. He should be able to suggest suitable remedies for the form of construction used in your house, and even to suggest a few firms whose work is reliable, from whom it would be worth obtaining quotations for any work considered desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazooka Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Houses built just after the war (ww2 )have galvanized fishtail tiebars some will have corroded and others not ,forget about it but when you come to sell your house a survayer will probably tell you to have them done or reduce the price to allow for this. baz the builder retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Syd, Just a word of warning, make sure you get a reputable outfit in to do your wall ties and damp proofing, there are more than enough cowboys roaming the range. Just a couple of con tricks I have come across, injecting diesel into the brickwork instead of using the proper damp proof fluid, drilling the holes for the wall ties and just plugging them with a sand and cement mix without fitting the ties, it goes on you know...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Hi KOTH Thanks for that Yes I will be there ALL of the time. Going to have a brick taken out this week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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