Proposed changes to HGV and PCV speed limits and outside lane use

[famcunni]

A consultation process has started to make changes to speed limits and use of the outside lane on motorways for HGV in the range of 3.5 to 7.5 ton and PCV vehicles determined by length.

 

On the face of it not a lot for Motorhomers to worry about. However, section 4.6 clearly mentions dual purpose vehicles and motorhomes exceeding 3.05 tons unladen weight are included in the scope of the changes.

 

This is at consultation stage at present and as many motorhomes may fall into the criteria, you may like to add your comments.

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-06/

[weldted]

can someone clarify what speed limits and lane restriction apply now to a unladenweight motorhome of 3800kgs please

[lennyhb]

weldted - 2010-02-04 10:23 AM

 

can someone clarify what speed limits and lane restriction apply now to a unladenweight motorhome of 3800kgs please

 

A Motorhome exceeding 3050kg ex works unladen weight is restricted to :

 

50mhp on single carriageways

60mph on dual carriageways

70mph on motorways

 

No lane restrictions.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

weldted - 2010-02-04 10:23 AM can someone clarify what speed limits and lane restriction apply now to a unladen weight motorhome of 3800kgs please

Ted, for your van, I think what you are quoting may be the MAM and not the unladen weight?  As correctly stated above, the lower limits are governed by an unladen weight exceeding 3050Kg, and not by MAM. 

Yours may be borderline, and may be presumed by the police to be over 3050Kg.  If it is under, a weighbridge ticket showing this may be worth carrying.  Several motorhomers have been ticketed for observing the higher speed limits, while the police assumed the lower should apply.

[lennyhb]

Brian,

 

If the MAM or gross weight is over 3500kg don't the lower speed limits apply anyway?

 

Also as I understand the 3050kg unladen weight limit is the ex. works weight as certified by the manufacturer before any accessories are fitted by the dealer so a weighbridge probably won't help.

 

 

[Basil]

Am I right in thinking that the 'consultation' is only with or via the groups listed in the consultation document? If that is the case most would probably only be able to make representations to the AA or RAC who are listed in the document or have I misunderstood?

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

lennyhb - 2010-02-04 12:18 PM Brian, If the MAM or gross weight is over 3500kg don't the lower speed limits apply anyway? Also as I understand the 3050kg unladen weight limit is the ex. works weight as certified by the manufacturer before any accessories are fitted by the dealer so a weighbridge probably won't help.

Not so far as I am aware, within UK it is unladen weight that governs.  Outside UK, it is (generally, so far as I know) MAM that governs which limits apply (quite surprisingly low on German autobahnen!), which is much clearer and easier to understand by all.

Unladen would include any fixed accessories, such as awning, bike rack, solar panels, satellite TV gizmos etc, but also engine/transmission options that few manufacturer's differentiate in their published figures.  The Construction and Use Regs definition is:

“the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and equipment.”

"Ordinarily used with the vehicle" would snag all your accessories, so the weighbridge, with either a full tank of fuel of known weight that can then be deducted, or as little fuel as is safe for the journey that will give a small positive margin of safety, seems the best way to be sure.  Everything loose, take out (including, if you really want to be pedantic, jack and wheelbrace, spare wheel, or tube of puncture goo!).

[Andy_C]

Basil - 2010-02-04 5:02 PM

 

Am I right in thinking that the 'consultation' is only with or via the groups listed in the consultation document? If that is the case most would probably only be able to make representations to the AA or RAC who are listed in the document or have I misunderstood?

 

Bas

Responses can be made by an individual as well as the organisations listed as consultees.

 

There is a notable omission of the C&CC, CC & MCC in the list, though I am assured that an email was sent to 'motorhome related contacts' when this omission was brought to the Department's attention.

 

AndyC

[flicka]

weldted - 2010-02-04 10:23 AM

 

can someone clarify what speed limits and lane restriction apply now to a unladenweight motorhome of 3800kgs please

The current & "proposed restrictions" from the document are

"4.2 The table below summarises the changes we would be making and it also shows the speed limiter setting which applies to most modern vehicles in the relevant vehicle Class:

Vehicle Class

Current motorway limit (mph) Proposed limit (mph)

HGVs 3.5 – 7.5 tonnes

70 60

HGVs more than 7.5 tonnes

60(no change) 60(no change)

PCVs less than 12 m long

70 65

PCVs more than 12 m long

60 65"

 

Section 4.6 reads:-

"4.6 Additionally, please note that the proposed changes affect not only PCVs with more than 8 passengers, but also passenger vehicles, motor caravans and dual-purpose vehicles with an unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes."

 

Given that there are many motorhomes on the 3500kg chassis, how are the Authorities going to be able to determine if the unladen weight is > or <3050kg ????? >:-)

 

[kontiki]

How would they ever be able to check the unladen weight unless everything not permanently fixed was taken out of the van before weighing it (?) My van has an mass in running order listed as 2985 kgs, my van is plated at 3850 kgs & classed as PHGV. I don't think I have anything much extra fitted (no awning, bike rack or satellite) in fact I have alloy wheels which are listed as -10kgs (doesn't say if its per wheel or for all 4 *-) )

 

I haven't weighed my van, should do but the place close to me that used to do a free check is now closed but we are careful what we do put in but it would be nice to know the weight on each axle.

[lennyhb]

Had good look and Brian is right UK limits are only governed by the unladen weights (unless over 12 m long!!)

 

The unladen weight should be on your vans 'Certificate of Conformity' and if stopped you could be asked to produce it, not an item I would bother carrying but it's at home if I needed it but then my unladen weight is over 3050kg.

 

 

 

[flicka]

lennyhb - 2010-02-04 8:48 PM

 

Had good look and Brian is right UK limits are only governed by the unladen weights (unless over 12 m long!!)

 

The unladen weight should be on your vans 'Certificate of Conformity' and if stopped you could be asked to produce it, not an item I would bother carrying but it's at home if I needed it but then my unladen weight is over 3050kg.

 

My point is:- with so many (Pivate Light Goods) Motorhomes rated at 3500kg MAM, there are many which will be under the 3050kg unladen weight but still a fair percentage above this (if manufacturers payload figures are to be believed) especially when option packs/assessories like Awnings, etc are fitted.

The manufacturers C of C will be invalidated if these are not factory fitted.

 

How can the Authorities determine if you are over or under the 3050kg figure, I suspect they will be issuing many tickets generated by speed cameras or patrol cars, received days after the aledged offense and individuals will then have to prove they are innocent. Once again the Government proposal is contary to the concept that an individual is innocent untill proven guilty.

 

[Brian Kirby]

I think this may be being misread.  So far as I can see, so far as motor caravans are concerned, the effect is merely to move the trigger point for the lower speed limit from 3,050Kg unladen to 3,500Kg MAM.

Since unladen weight is at present legally critical, but unstated on the vehicle plate, and MAM is stated on the vehicle plate, the effect should be clarity, and freedom from certain ill-informed police officers ticketing motorhomers for legally exceeding 60 MPH on dual carriageways or 50MPH on ordinary two lane roads.  It would also bring us into line with most of the rest of Europe, so less scope for misunderstandings if abroad.

True it may mean that owners of vans with an MAM exceeding 3,500Kg, but an unladen weight below 3,050Kg, would have to observe the lower limits, but would owners of such PHGVs really notice much of a difference in practice? 

Neither those vans with an MAM of 3,500Kg or less, nor those with an unladen weight of over 3,050Kg, would be affected by the new limits so, although it will affect some, it will be a (I guess quite small) minority.

Only those directly affected will know how much the proposed change will affect their travel times, but my perception is that actual maximum driving speeds have very little impact on how far one gets in a day.  But then, our van would be unaffected, so I can afford to be sanguine!  :-)

[lennyhb]

flicka - 2010-02-04 10:29 PM

 

lennyhb - 2010-02-04 8:48 PM

 

Had good look and Brian is right UK limits are only governed by the unladen weights (unless over 12 m long!!)

 

The unladen weight should be on your vans 'Certificate of Conformity' and if stopped you could be asked to produce it, not an item I would bother carrying but it's at home if I needed it but then my unladen weight is over 3050kg.

 

My point is:- with so many (Pivate Light Goods) Motorhomes rated at 3500kg MAM, there are many which will be under the 3050kg unladen weight but still a fair percentage above this (if manufacturers payload figures are to be believed) especially when option packs/assessories like Awnings, etc are fitted.

The manufacturers C of C will be invalidated if these are not factory fitted.

 

How can the Authorities determine if you are over or under the 3050kg figure, I suspect they will be issuing many tickets generated by speed cameras or patrol cars, received days after the aledged offense and individuals will then have to prove they are innocent. Once again the Government proposal is contary to the concept that an individual is innocent untill proven guilty.

 

If the authorities challenge you like most laws it is up to you to prove your unladen weight.

Also I can't remember where I read it but I am sure the unladen weight for this purpose is based on the Ex. Works weight as stated on the 'Certificate of Conformity' .

 

 

[Usinmyknaus]

I have responded to the consultation asking that the weight used to set speed limits is the maximum permitted laden weight and that there is no reference to the unladen weight of a vehicle. I contend that it is simple for both drivers and regulators to check the laden weight at any time simply by using a weighbridge. It is very difficult and therefore, inequitable to require it, for the driver of a motor caravan to know, or to verify with absolute certainty, the unladen weight of their vehicle at any given time. Similarly, how would VOSA check the unladen weight at a roadside check - can they spare half a day while I unload it, and where would they put all the stuff while they weigh the 'van?

 

Bob

[famcunni]

Using the 'unladen weight' of a vehicle to determine speed limits seems to me to be a nonsense. Using the MAM is a much better idea. However, if a motorhome has a max authorised weight of 3,500kg as many do (whether its loaded to that or not), would still bring them into line with the proposed changes as the weight range is from 3.5 to 7.5 tons. I take those figures to be inclusive and would make a lot more vehicles subject to the lower speed limit and a third lane ban on motorways. As I read things, under the new proposal any motorhome with an 'unladen weight' of 3050kg or more would have to stay at 60mph and stay out of the third lane on motorways under the new proposals. Or have I got it wrong.

 

To be honest the middle and nearside lanes of motorways are already clogged up with trucks and buses anyway, and forcing more vehicles to keep to them will only serve to add to congestion.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

lennyhb - 2010-02-05 8:19 AM ......... Also I can't remember where I read it but I am sure the unladen weight for this purpose is based on the Ex. Works weight as stated on the 'Certificate of Conformity' .

Not according to the DfT it ain't, whose reply to an earlier enquiry on the subject I quoted above.  They cite the definition in the Construction and Use Regulations as the reference to be used in determining "unladen weight", which is why I quoted what they said.  That definition must include the weight of all fixed accessories.  Since they cannot be unloaded, they become part of the vehicle structure, and must thereafter be counted within its unladen (i.e weight when not carrying load) weight.

[Mel B]

So what happens if you haven't got a certificate of conformity in the first place? Never had one yet and we've had 3 new vans.

[Andy_C]

Brian Kirby - 2010-02-05 12:16 AM

I think this may be being misread.  So far as I can see, so far as motor caravans are concerned, the effect is merely to move the trigger point for the lower speed limit from 3,050Kg unladen to 3,500Kg MAM.

Since unladen weight is at present legally critical, but unstated on the vehicle plate, and MAM is stated on the vehicle plate, the effect should be clarity, and freedom from certain ill-informed police officers ticketing motorhomers for legally exceeding 60 MPH on dual carriageways or 50MPH on ordinary two lane roads.  It would also bring us into line with most of the rest of Europe, so less scope for misunderstandings if abroad.

True it may mean that owners of vans with an MAM exceeding 3,500Kg, but an unladen weight below 3,050Kg, would have to observe the lower limits, but would owners of such PHGVs really notice much of a difference in practice? 

Neither those vans with an MAM of 3,500Kg or less, nor those with an unladen weight of over 3,050Kg, would be affected by the new limits so, although it will affect some, it will be a (I guess quite small) minority.

It's not at all clear from the document that the nonsense of unladen weight as a basis for determining speed limits is to be removed. New speed limits would apply (as far as I can tell) to all motorhomes with a MAM of over 3500kg (or an UW of more than 3050kg?), which can currently travel at 70mph on motorways. It also seems to mean that these motorhomes would not be allowed to use the outside lane on motorways. To quote: "all drivers would know what maximum speed to expect – and they would also know that no HGV or 8+ seat PCV should be in the outside lane"Where exactly do motorhomes with a MAM of over 3500kg fit in this? They are not PVCs, so the new 65mph speed limit would seem not to apply, so are they HGVs? In which case a 60mph limit would apply and they would be banned from the outside lane.Now my head hurts :)Andy

[flicka]

Andy_C - 2010-02-05 7:59 PM

 

Where exactly do motorhomes with a MAM of over 3500kg fit in this? They are not PVCs, so the new 65mph speed limit would seem not to apply, so are they HGVs? In which case a 60mph limit would apply and they would be banned from the outside lane.

 

Now my head hurts :)

 

Andy

 

Section 4.6 reads:-

"4.6 Additionally, please note that the proposed changes affect not only PCVs with more than 8 passengers,

** but also passenger vehicles, motor caravans and dual-purpose vehicles** with an unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes."

 

I doubt there are many M/H's with a MAM greater than 3500kg, which would come within the unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes. So must ASSUME the changes if introduced will apply.

[lennyhb]

flicka - 2010-02-05 8:05 PM

 

Andy_C - 2010-02-05 7:59 PM

 

Where exactly do motorhomes with a MAM of over 3500kg fit in this? They are not PVCs, so the new 65mph speed limit would seem not to apply, so are they HGVs? In which case a 60mph limit would apply and they would be banned from the outside lane.

 

Now my head hurts :)

 

Andy

 

Section 4.6 reads:-

"4.6 Additionally, please note that the proposed changes affect not only PCVs with more than 8 passengers,

** but also passenger vehicles, motor caravans and dual-purpose vehicles** with an unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes."

 

I doubt there are many M/H's with a MAM greater than 3500kg, which would come within the unladen weight exceeding 3.05 tonnes. So must ASSUME the changes if introduced will apply.

 

Mine is 3150 Unladen 3500 MAM, but it is as special edition that came with loads of extras factory fitted but there are quite a lot of German vans that come into this category.

I could have it re-plated to 3850kg but I would only carry more junk I don't really need.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nowtelse2do]

Similarly, how would VOSA check the unladen weight at a roadside check - can they spare half a day while I unload it, and where would they put all the stuff while they weigh the 'van? Bob

Bob,  VOSA would take as long as they wish, and the stuff would be dumped at the side of the weighbridge even if it was snowing, ("not there concern") would be the reply.

When Truck's started to use swap bodies, the taxation dept tried to class the swap body as part of the truck, (higher tax bracket) but it failed it was instead classed as part of the load because it was not a fixture of the vehicle, so the truck was taxed at the weight of a chassis & cab with mudguards. I think this is the same as what Brian is trying to say, basically if it is not a fixture then take the out. A fridge, oven,shower, bed, etc. is a fixture, so you can't take it out. A spare wheel (if you have one) and a leisure battery is not classed as fixture but the main battery is a fixture.

It's a minefield out there!!

Dave

[Mel B]

I've just sent them a nice long email .... hopefully it will be read!

 

If I needed to 'removed' anything that wasn't a fixture for fitting ... what about the bed matress as well as the bedding? The base cushions which make up the seats? It would be interesting to find out exactly what would HAVE to be left in and what could be removed ... not that I want to play that particular game you understand!!!! 8-)

[lennyhb]

Are we all getting a bit carried away here, does it really mater if we are restricted to 60 on a Motorway we are already restricted to 60 on dual carriageways (those of us over 3050kg unladen).

As for not being able to use the outside lane how often do you do that on a journey it's not like we are white van man who likes to use it for the whole length of the motorway.

 

The current regulations the police do not appear to enforce non passenger derived vans are limited to the lower limits on single & dual carriageways how often do you see white van man pulled for exceeding these limits.

 

 

[jb6981]

lennyhb - 2010-02-06 12:00 PM

 

Are we all getting a bit carried away here, does it really mater if we are restricted to 60 on a Motorway we are already restricted to 60 on dual carriageways (those of us over 3050kg unladen).

As for not being able to use the outside lane how often do you do that on a journey it's not like we are white van man who likes to use it for the whole length of the motorway.

 

The current regulations the police do not appear to enforce non passenger derived vans are limited to the lower limits on single & dual carriageways how often do you see white van man pulled for exceeding these limits.

 

Yes it does matter if I am restricted to 60 in my 4500kg motorhome; on joining motorways I have often been caught in a bunch of 44 tonne juggernauts roaring along at their maximum 90 kph (56mph), six foot from the bumper of the truck in front. In this, scary and potentially dangerous situation I put my foot down and accelerate away from the bunch as quickly as possible, being limited to 60 would not legally allow this and would crate more bunching, congestion and accidents.

 

I have read the consultation document and it seems that motohomes will be subject to a 60 mph limit and for no logical reasons that I can see, minibuses will be able to travel at 65.

 

This proposal should be opposed on safety grounds.