weighty problem

[PJay]

How would an "upgrade " to 3700, (as Silverback states with air suspension) affect any over 70's driving ? (with limit of 3500) Will be very interested to know the answer please

PJay

[Brian Kirby]

3,700Kg MAM is over 3,500Kg MAM so, if your licence restricts you from driving vehicles over 3,500Kg MAM, whatever your age, you couldn't drive it.  I don't see where the doubt arises.

[silverback]

thanks Derek

if i uprate i would let them do it, i was just enquiring if anyone had done a DIY job trying to save some pennies ;-)

 

thanks Brian

i was thinking the same thing, it doesnt just sound right does it!!

Rollerteam Italy have got back to me 8-) and they are saying that what it says on the plate is correct 3200kg

then rollerteam uk got back to me and said the same but then directed me with a link to the svtech website (!) and said get it uprated, my thoughts are why the hell do i have to do it when they could do it at the time of original manufacture!!(or am i being too sensitive)

When i phoned svtech, they told me the figures so i questioned it and they went away and came back afew mins later and confirmed the figures, but like you suggest i will ring them again on friday to check

They do not want to see the vehicle, it is all just paperwork i send them a photo of the vin and they do the rest!!

but again as you suggest i will get onto fiat commercial and just check out what you are saying and what they have to say

i am also getting in touch with the DVLA to find out why it isnt on my V5 doc

again thanks for all the imput you guys do its much appreciated

Jonathan

[Derek Uzzell]

silverback - 2010-02-24 9:20 PM

 

...i am also getting in touch with the DVLA to find out why it isnt on my V5 doc...

 

Jonathan

 

I wouldn't bother.

 

There's no 'weight data' on my 2005-registered Hobby's V5C and I'm pretty sure there weren't any on my previous 1997-registered Herald's V5C either.

 

Field Y (Revenue Weight) is inapplicable for any vehicle up to 3500kg MAM, so you shouldn't expect to see anything there.

 

Field F.1 (Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c) should apply one might think, and there's a figure in this field for our July 2009-registered car, plus a '"Mass in service" weight and figures in the "O", "U" and "V" fields. However, on the Hobby's V5C, Field F.1 is blank, as are the other fields I've just mentioned.

 

I suspect the answer may lie in UK-registered Motor Caravans being exempt from Type Approval, and that entering "EXEMPT" in Field K (Type approval number) at the registration stage removes any requirement to input data into V5C fields that are Type Approval-related. But that's just a guess based on the fact that, when I applied for the Hobby's UK-registration, I know I provided the DVLA with the Type Approval data that are not shown on its V5C.

[PJay]

Brian Kirby - 2010-02-24 5:28 PM

 

3,700Kg MAM is over 3,500Kg MAM so, if your licence restricts you from driving vehicles over 3,500Kg MAM, whatever your age, you couldn't drive it.  I don't see where the doubt arises.

Thanks Brian.i thought that was the case. So no air Suspension for us then!!

[Brian Kirby]

PJay - 2010-02-25 10:18 AM

Brian Kirby - 2010-02-24 5:28 PM 3,700Kg MAM is over 3,500Kg MAM so, if your licence restricts you from driving vehicles over 3,500Kg MAM, whatever your age, you couldn't drive it.  I don't see where the doubt arises.

Thanks Brian.i thought that was the case. So no air Suspension for us then!!

There's nothing to stop you adding air suspension but, if your van is already plated at 3,500Kg MAM, and your licence doesn't allow you to drive a heavier vehicle, you will be unable to drive it if replated to more than 3,500Kg.  In other words, you can have the air suspension without increasing MAM, for any of the other benefits it may bring, but you can't increase your MAM.

[silverback]

Hi Derek,

i did bother and they said its nowt to do with them(just as you say)

however they did tell me to get in touch with VOSA and they should be able to tell me what the MAM is when converted originally (im thinking the convertors plate has fallen off) but im not holding out 2 much hope but its worth a try

theres no point shelling out the dosh if its already at 3500kg

jonathan

[Derek Uzzell]

Jonathan

 

If you could say exactly which make/model/year of motorhome you own I might be able to check the MAM from my own documentation (I note that you mention details are in your signature, but I can't see any signature?!)

 

As your vehicle's VIN-plate shows 3200kg, and there were certainly plenty of 3200kg MAM motorhomes being marketed in the early 2000s, there's little reason to assume that the Italian converter would have uprated that figure. There's also the fact that Roller Team(Italy) and Roller Team(UK) have both said it's 3200kg.

 

I can't for the life of me think why the DVAL should suggest you contact VOSA.

[silverback]

Derek

i cant think why DVLA said that either! but ive emailed VOSA anyway, im just exploring all possibilities thats all,

its a fiat 2.8 jtd rollerteam pegaso 141 6berth 2001 Y reg thanks

im sure you can see that, maybe i should put it like everyone elses at the side

jonathan

[Derek Uzzell]

Jonathan

 

All I can find is a reference in the Buyers' Guide section of the January 2002 issue of Which Motorcaravan (WM). This provides the following information:

 

Make = CI Roller Team

Model = Pegaso 141

Chassis = Fiat Ducato 14 MWB

Engine = 2.8TD

Length = 6.34m

Width = 2.22m

Height = 3.06m

Mass in Running Order = 2560kg

MAM = 3400kg

Berths = 5

Designated Passenger Seats = 3

Price = £26350

 

Motorhome manufacturers have an exasperating habit of altering vehicle specification but leaving the model-name unchanged, so it's quite possible that the Pegaso 141 mentioned in WM differs from your 2001 version. I'd have expected that a vehicle that large, with the big Fiat motor and a sleeping capacity of 5, would need at least a 3400kg MAM chassis. But, as has been said earlier, there used to be (and still are) plenty of motorhomes where exploiting their potential passenger and/or sleeping capacities to the full would seriously risk the vehicle becoming overweight.

[silverback]

Derek

thanks very much for taking the time to look up my motor home, indeed that is the one i think, have you seen the MAM!! and the payload capability!! which ties in with Brians weights, that is why i think the other plate has fallen off!! back in them days my van started off as a truck found out on internet 6hr search! then in 2003 it got a face lift, just cosmetic front grill and some other stuff, but every thing else stayed the same, then 2006 3rd generation came out(but that doesnt concern this thread) all the duc 14 mwb have the same axle weight regardless of engine, the next 1 up was the maxi with weights of 3500/1850/2120

so....

svtech i rung today gave them every detail and he says the van can be uprated to 3500/1750/1900 the tyres 109/107 load are ok and suspension ok no need to upgrade anything

he told me that they have a test rig that cost them10k and is approved by the relevant agencies and i told him about my fears etc and he reassured me that to uprate is ok,

so...

i rung fiat... got the runaround like you do...they say go with the plate! who would have thought... offered nothing in when i asked about an uprate...

so... i have to go with what i have been told, even though im convinced it should be 3400kg

jonathan

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Jonathan

 

In 2001 Fiat were producing 3 Ducato chassis versions - the 10, 14 and 18. Based on the January 2002 WM listing and the small amount of motorhome-related literature I've still got for that era, the Ducato 10 chassis normally seemed to have been used for shortish motorhomes with a MAM of 3000kg or 3200kg. Motorhomes on the 14 chassis tended to have a MAM of 3400kg, or sometimes 3500kg. Ducato 18 (Maxi)-based motorhomes usually had a MAM of 3850kg (and occasionally 4000kg), though the MAM of Continental-built Ducato 18 vehicles was often reduced to 3500kg, primarily for 'foreign' driving-licence considerations. However, the WM listing suggests that there were exceptions to these rules of thumb, with some quite large motorhomes having a MAM significantly less than that one might expect for their size, while other models had the option of being built on a choice of Ducato chassis.

 

The manufacturers of the chassis part of your motorhome and of its conversion both state that the data on its VIN-plate is correct, so, even if there had been an extra data-plate that's now missing, it seems probable that this would have just repeated the weight information on Fiat's plate.

 

There is the possibility (I guess) that your Pegaso 141 had the wrong data stamped on its VIN-plate when the chassis was constructed in the Fiat factory, or that it was converted by CI Roller Team using a Ducato 10 chassis rather than a 14, but (even if either were true) realistically there's nothing you can do about it this late in the game.

 

If Fiat had discovered a mistake was made in their factory long ago, you'd be naïve to believe they'd admit to it now, especially for a vehicle that's happily been driven around for 9 years. Probably the only sure way of confirming whether or not CI Roller Team were making Pegaso 141s in 2001 on a 3200kg or 3400kg MAM chassis would be to get hold of a 2001 brochure and hope that it gave the chassis limit - but I can't see that being practicable.

 

As SVTech has assured you that your chassis can be uprated to 3500/1750/1900 specification relatively cheaply and without any mechanical modifications, then that's surely the right way to go if you are finding it really hard to keep within the vehicle's current VIN-plate weight limits. Rather than being legally marginal, you'd have much more payload flexibility and this should also be a valuable selling-point when the motorhome is eventually sold.

 

(There is another forum member in a somewhat similar (but much trickier) position than you, with a current model Ducato-based Italian-converted motorhome that has seemingly been built wrongly on a 3300kg MAM chassis rather than on a 3500kg one, resulting in inadequate payload capacity. In his case Fiat has stated that the chassis is at its maximum design limit at 3300kg and that 'uprating' to 3500kg would make the warranty void.)

[Brian Kirby]

Try giving the VIN to a Fiat commercial garage, and ask them to see what comes out of their database.  They may have to search for it as a "visitor". 

If you tell them why, they may even tell you if they are aware of any big differences between the 3,200Kg and 3,400Kg chassis.  However, it is very unlikely the Fiat plate would have been overridden when the habitation bodywork was added.  The plate relates to the type approved design limitations of the chassis and running gear.

Tyres for the 3,400Kg chassis with "camping suspension" in 2005 were 215/70 R 15C (in our case Michelin "Camping").

[Basil]

Only in the hope of sheading some light on the 3200, 3400 oddity!

Brian Kirby - 2010-02-17 9:23 PM

Mel

..............Mainly for you, but also for Jonathan.  I'm sure you do realise - but just in case you don't - the re-plating you are describing only amounts to adding together the maximum permissible loads on both front, and rear, axles. ).................

As has been stated later in the thread SvTech can actually re rate the axles as well, this was a surprise to me as I too thought that the best they would be able to do would be an increase in the MAM with axle weights remaining the same.

Brian Kirby - 2010-02-24 12:55 PM

................What that gives you is the same axle limits as for the Fiat standard 3,400 Kg chassis. I know that, because we had one!

As your present plate says 3,200Kg, the uprating, as a paper exercise, seems a bit odd to me. The implication of what you are being told is that the 3,400Kg chassis, and the 3,200Kg chassis are identical, including brakes, suspension, wheels and tyres. If they are, then you win!! However, I can't see the advantage to Fiat, in selling a cheaper 3,200Kg van that is, in fact, a more expensive 3,400Kg van, in disguise....................

Regarding the above our vehicle is a Peugeot variant which were supplied as 320, 340 and 350 in SWB, MWB and LWB (reffering to wheelbase lengths) but I assume that follows the same as Fiat's designation as stated by Brian.I was led to understand that the only difference between our 320 LWB and the 340 LWB chassis was the tyre size i.e the 320 was fitted with 195 x 70R 15C Load rated 104 (900kgs max) tyres and the 340 was fitted with 215 x 70R 15C Load rated 109 (1030kgs max) or, certainly for mainland Europe even 16C tyres, as we found to our inconvenience the 195 x 70R x 15C tyres are not available in France when we had a blow out. I have no idea what the reason for this, or what marketing ploy it fitted, but quite clearly the standard 320 tyres would be unable to take the full load of the uprating. So if my understanding is correct the 320 and the 340 chassis are identical, but the tyres are not.Bas

[silverback]

hi all,

done tons of searching and cross referances and come up with this my MH is based on the fiat truck and not a van (cos the van mam is 3250kg) its a version 14 MWB they didnt make a 3400 van in that year they came out later, the version 10 on a 2.8 engine the biggest mam they did was 2800kg

Derek

i agree with your post that the way to go is to get the uprate

Brian

i have already emailed details to a fiat comercial technition on your sugestion and i am waiting for there reply

my tyres are indeed the 215/70 R15 load rating 109/107

so i am just waiting for fiat

jonathan

[silverback]

hi Derek, you were right VOSA could not help, they only keep details on HGV's told me to try the convertors/ manufacturers/ importers (!) ...... well at least they replied

jonathan

[silverback]

hi all, just to keep you informed

emailed 3 fiat commercial dealers and 1 normal fiat dealer with details on vin num etc as sugested, got no replies in i think 3 weeks, so im not gonna bother with all that (cheers fiat customer service is dead! and i wasnt even making a complaint!!)

so im going with svtech recommendations if they say they can uprate to 3500kg without mods that will do for me :D

thanks to all who contributed to my post it was much appreciated

jonathan

[Robinhood]

Inputting the VIN yourself into FIATs ePER system (there are a number of copies working online if you know where to look) should give you the basic details of the vehicle - including the original spec of the vehicle.

 

Mine, for instance, returns the correct spec for a RHD maxi (18) version, the engine number, etc.

 

If you know how to use it and where to find a working version, it is also great for determining spares, with breakdown diagrams and part nos that are matched to you your particular VIN.

 

It is, in fact, what a FIAT dealer would use to look your vehicle up.

 

You can google for ePER and try to use it yourself, or (as it isn't the easiest of things to find and use on the online versions - it was designed to run locally from a DVD, and needs configuring) if you want to send a private message with the VIN (ZFA........etc) I'll see if the version I can currently access throws any light on your vehicle.

 

HTH

[silverback]

hi roho,

thanks for that i will look into your suggestion this wkend and see what i come up with, will post on here the results

cheers jonathan

[Basil]

Hi Jonathon, for your information there is a company that will produce a new Vin or Convertors plate for you, they are currently producing a convertors plate for me that reflects the uprating that I have had from SvTech i.e. raising the MAM from 3200 to 3500, my convertors plate only has the conversion number and the MAM on it. I decided to go this one step further after having the SvTech uprate carried out, only to avoid any misunderstanding/ confrontation whilst out on the road. SvTech provide a new Vin plate but are not able to reproduce the convertors plate.

The following company can do any plate you like, including VIN (which incidently answers an earlier question of yours re can you DIY it) for you to attach starting from £19.99. My own feelings are that I would not just DIY it but having taken the step of having it done through SvTech any other plate I change would be in line and ok.

The conpany is VinTags, I believe mentioned on the forum during an earlier thread, web address is

 

http://www.vintagsuk.com/index.htm

 

Bas

[silverback]

hi roho

did that eper thing, what a handy bit of kit that is.. diagrams, everything you need, it gave me the results that i had already found out, but its gonna be useful for other things later on, so thanks for that

 

 

Basil

thanks for the info, i will consider vin tags when i have done the uprate

Jonathan