johngee Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I looked at a van yesterday which has a Webasto diesel heating system as opposed to gas/electricity. Does anyone have any experience of this system, pros & cons, running costs, reliabilty, etc. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 We have a Webasto in our van. We have a problem at the moment waiting for it to be fixed!! We used it over Christmas at it worked fine kept us very warm produced plenty of hot water. The problem occured a couple of weekends ago I forgot to switch over to frost protect over night consequently it dumped the water from the boiler, this is what it is supposed to do. From then on it wouldnot fire up again, having spoke to a Webasto engineer he said that it would not be covered by warrenty, so he couldnot fix it for us under the warrenty it would have to be done by the dealer. (The warrenty problem seems to be that the converter has not installed the webasto correctly, when it dumps the water it sprays it into the heater some how. This seems to be a problem that has got to be sorted by Converter and a refix on present vans and future conversions) Fuel economy:- not had it going long enough to really evaluate it. If you take into consideration that you are not needing Electricity and not using gas for heat/water then possibly it works out about the same as using gas and electricity. What was the van you saw it in? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngee Posted February 28, 2010 Author Share Posted February 28, 2010 Thanks for the info. We were looking at Chausson S2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 I'm guessing that David's motorhome probably has a Webasto "Dual Top" air & water heater, whereas I'm pretty sure the Chausson Flash S2 has a Webasto "Air-Top 3500" for air heating and a Truma Ultrastore B10 gas-only boiler for water heating. According to a couple of letters in a French motorhome magazine (one from an aggrieved owner of a one-year-old Kentucky Estro 5 'van and the other a rejoinder from a Webasto spokesman) there were problems with early production Dual Top models. Air-Top blown-air heaters have been around for years: the only significant thing to say about them is that you need a good size leisure-battery as they demand a hefty jolt of 'juice' during the start-up phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hi Johngee What Derek is saying is, as far as I'm aware, correct. We've just signed up for the Chausson 04 which has the Webasto diesel air heater and a Truma Ultrastore for the water. When we spoke to the chap on the Webasto stand for more info on it, he said initially it will need a short 2 amps burst to get it going, but then the electric requirement is negligible, so long as you've go enough juice in your battery for the initial start you should be okay. Nice layout in the Flash S2 and very innovative, especially since the seatback can be set to tilt forward at a various angles so you can use it to face the backwall above the bed head to slob out to watch TV (if that's where you mount it) if needs be! Having the kitchen unit immediately opposite the seating area though was something I wasn't happy with as it can be a bit awkward for others to get in/out whilst you're cooking (already had that with a Rapido 709F), and as we decided we wanted the garage instead of the massive washoom, we plumped for our version which is on the Ford base (see my posting elsewhere if you're interested). Out of interest, who are you considering getting it from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirage Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 We have an Espacher Diesel Heater minor problem with control repaired under warranty otherwise OK. They do throw a lot of heat out for little cost with the advantage of not having to worry about carrying extra gas. Best run every month so they say and I do on the basis of use it or lose it. Some comments on noise level but we`ve no problem with ours. They can be used on the road which is of great benefit, some recent gas heaters have moved in this direction, the cab heater alone is insufficient in cold weather. I certainly would not turn down a model on the grounds it has a diesel heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Mel B - 2010-02-28 7:53 PM ....When we spoke to the chap on the Webasto stand for more info on it, he said initially it will need a short 2 amps burst to get it going, but then the electric requirement is negligible, so long as you've go enough juice in your battery for the initial start you should be okay.... According to my 1998 Webasto Air-Top 3500 Installation/Operating Instructions the diesel version uses from 0.17 - 0.42 litres of fuel per hour with a heat output of 1.5 - 3.5kW. Obviously these are ball-park figures because the heater will adjust its output (and hence fuel consumption) according to the desired motorhome living-area's temperature specified by the user. Two different diesel-fuelled Air-Top 3500s are mentioned. The first (and probably the one fitted by Chausson) had a 12V power consumption from 15W - 36W (1.25A - 3A), while the second "Volume Plus" version (presumably with a much more powerful fan) consumed 15W - 90W (1.25A - 7.5A). It's quite possible that 2010 appliances are more fuel and 12V efficient than the models covered by my Webasto literature, but, unlike gas-fuelled heaters, diesel fuel needs a fair amount of electricity to ignite it. Also any heating appliance (whatever fuel it employs) with a powerful electric fan will need a powerful electric current to drive the fan. If the user sets his/her Webasto heater so that it is regularly stopping and starting and/or its fan is running at high, inevitably 12V consumption will suffer. There have been several Webasto-related articles in French motorhome magazines over the years and the need for adequate 12V-battery capacity has always been highlighted. In fact, the French "aggrieved owner" I mentioned earlier complained about this, claiming that his Dual Top heater's fuel-pump and fans could flatten his vehicle's batteries during the course of just one very cold night. The Webasto rep's reply was that, during a standard EN-1646 test (-15ºC outside temperature and +20ºC inside the vehicle), the Dual Top consumed 26W (2.17A) of 12V power per hour and 0.32 litres of diesel-fuel per hour. It does need saying that the French motorcaravanner was being really peevish about his heater (as much as anything because of the difficulties he had getting the problems with it fixed), but to suggest that "the electric requirement is negligible" for a Webasto appliance is being more than a mite optimistic. It may well be that an Air-Top 3500's overall 12V consumption is no worse than, say, a Truma Combi-4 (0.2A - 5.6A), but I'm fairly confident that, as the leisure-battery became discharged, the Webasto heater would stop functioning before the Truma unit. In both cases, if I anticipated using a motorhome autonomously for extended periods in cold weather, I'd want plenty of 12V battery capacity. I think Chausson used to fit 80Ah batteries to Flash/Welcome models as standard, and I'd certainly want to increase that capacity. (Earlier Webasto-related forum threads can be retrieved via a Search on Keywords=Webasto/Filter by auther=Derek Uzzell/Date limit=All Posts.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I personally wouldn't touch any vehicle that is fitted with a Webasto heating system and my decision is based on passed experience with them, so unreliable. They might have improved since but I would need to be convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 rolandrat - 2010-03-01 10:38 AM I personally wouldn't touch any vehicle that is fitted with a Webasto heating system and my decision is based on passed experience with them, so unreliable. They might have improved since but I would need to be convinced. I do hope so RR as I have to have a diesel heating system as my wife won't have gas (At least not where she can't see the flame, based on a near death experience before we were married) so I will be ordering a Webasto Dual Top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Brian, Yes our Webasto is a Dual Top but on a 2010 van so hopefully not going to be a major problem. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngee Posted March 1, 2010 Author Share Posted March 1, 2010 Mel B - 2010-02-28 7:53 PM Hi Johngee Out of interest, who are you considering getting it from? I'm trying not to think about actually changing our van since I've only had ours since last July. The enquiry was more for future reference. On the basis on the comments made, the Flash S2 will be on the list when we do consider a change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Mel B - 2010-02-28 7:53 PM ....When we spoke to the chap on the Webasto stand for more info on it, he said initially it will need a short 2 amps burst to get it going, but then the electric requirement is negligible, so long as you've go enough juice in your battery for the initial start you should be okay.... Derek Uzzell - 2010-03-01 8:41 AM According to my 1998 Webasto Air-Top 3500 Installation/Operating Instructions the diesel version uses from 0.17 - 0.42 litres of fuel per hour with a heat output of 1.5 - 3.5kW. Obviously these are ball-park figures because the heater will adjust its output (and hence fuel consumption) according to the desired motorhome living-area's temperature specified by the user. The Webasto chap suggested .25 litres per hour as an average which seems likely. ... but to suggest that "the electric requirement is negligible" for a Webasto appliance is being more than a mite optimistic. I suppose it depends what you take 'neglible' to mean but I expect it won't be much, if any, more than our current blown air heating which sounds like a little helicopter taking off when in use!!! I think Chausson used to fit 80Ah batteries to Flash/Welcome models as standard, and I'd certainly want to increase that capacity. Which is why I'm having the second leisure battery moved across, and we've got the solar panel too (weather permitting! 8-) ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Mel B - 2010-03-01 10:16 PM Which is why I'm having the second leisure battery moved across, and we've got the solar panel too (weather permitting! 8-) ). I guess you mean you are planning to transfer your present 2nd leisure-battery from your Rimor to the Chausson. Presumably that battery is pretty new, as received wisdom seems to be that, when an 'old' battery is parallel-connected to a new battery, the former should be less than one year old. (I'm sure you know all this - it's been said enough times!) While I remember, once you've taken delivery of your Chausson, it would be worth you checking with a Ford agency a few weeks later that the Ford warranty for the Chausson is recorded on the Ford database as starting at the hand-over date and lasting 3 years. There's no reason to anticipate problems over this, but it would be as well to be sure. (Got a feeling you had a glitch with the 3-year warranty period with your Rimor, so a follow-up check may well be high up on your motorhome To-Do List.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Hi Derek ... oh wise one! :-D Yup, you are correct, although the battery we had fitted last year is a 110 amp one so whilst they're putting in the cabling etc I'm going to have to get a new 85 amp one to match the existing Chausson leisure battery as I understand you can't mix and match amperages. :-( You are also correct in remembering that I've already been through the Ford warranty issue previously, however it was sorted very easily so not a major concern ... yes I will get it sorted pretty soon though 'Grandad' ... honest! :D I'll also be taking in on a trip to the VOSA weighbridge at the Humber Bridge too (free to use) to check on the payload before I start stuffing things in but I can't see how on earth we'd get anywhere near to the limit at all except if we decide to take the scooter with us - better safe than sorry. :-) Anyone need a little used 110 amp battery????? Open to offers. :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I have a feeling that matching battery capacity is not so important. Just age and type seem to be the things to watch.Try this string (you'll need a cold compress and a lot of stamina, but it is a battery masterclass!) http://tinyurl.com/yhewjoz and I'm sure using batteries of unequal sizes is stated not to be a problem, so long as they are matched in other respects. Be warned, however, because matching capacity and age seem by far the easiest aspects!Maybe a pm to the knowledgeable ones would be the quickest way to ease the tension?Now you've got your overhang sorted, how's your dongle? Still a pain? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Brian ... my dongle is working fine tonight - goodness knows why! Must've been the threat to break it into tiny pieces last night that got it worried! It is so infuriating when they just won't work properly - can't wait to get my Mifi one back again. >:-) As for the battery thread ... I lost the will to live on that ages ago so I think the option of PM'ing Clive et al is in order! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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