Gearbox Synchromesh problem 2006 2.3JTD Ducatto

[RubyExsis]

Hope it is ok to start a new thread, but didn't think it would help the poor newer version victims.

My van is a Hymer Exsis (the high & short one) registered in March 2007, but built in 2006 on the 2002-2006 2.3JTD medium wheelbase Ducatto with only 15000 miles done.

The gears have started to grind changing from 1st to 2nd, unless I am very careful. Took it to a authorised agent who told me that the synchromesh has gone and that it is an engine/gearbox out big job + parts.

Fiat have offerred me £100 'goodwill' , which I have told them I am not satisfied with -and in the general discussion they state that the largest part of the cost is labour..... which I telll them would not be if their parts were satisfactory and did not fail after a careful 15000 miles. The conversations go nowhere and I am reminded that as the vehicle is out of warranty and was not serviced by an authorised dealer (which I tell them that I am not obliged to do), they say that this is a goodwill gesture which they are not obliged to make. They tell me that I can contact the 'motor industry codes' organisation.

So where do I go from here and has any one else had gearbox problems with the old version - or are they all suspect?

regards Fred

[Brian Kirby]

I think the best person to answer this will be Nick (euroserv), who is very familiar with these vehicles (Ducatos), as he runs a fleet of them.  If you want to try to catch his attention quickly, why not try sending him a PM?

As a generalisation, these gearboxes are not especially problematic.  Yours is, presumably, just over three months out of warranty, so Fiat are being a bit narrow in how they are interpreting the warranty.  However, it is their warranty, and they can do as they wish once the period has expired.  I think they may be more amenable if, once the job is done, the parts are saved and a technical inspection is requested to see if an assembly, or materials, defect shows up.  This seems highly probable, but you'll need someone who is reliable, and competent, to do the job so that the cause is identified. 

Replacing gearbox parts is not a straightforward job, requiring a proper mechanic's, as opposed to fitter's, skills, and may exceed the capability of many Fiat "repairers", although not all may admit this!  If you can wait, I'm sure Nick will be able to offer sound, valuable, advice.  He has previously said that, in preference to their local garages, whose work he has found less then ideal, they now do their own gearboxes if they have trouble with them.

[euroserv]

On it Brian!

 

Pretty insulting offer isn't it?

 

Fiat do not give a toss as long as the van survived the first two years without costing them anything; then you are on your own. The fact that the original build was sub-standard is completely lost on them past the magic 731st day.

 

If these were cars we would be writing to car magazines and to Wathdog and would be shaming the manufacturer into doing better but unfortunately these are commercial vehicles and there are only advertising dependent magazines that will pussy-foot around any issues that they discover for fear of cutting off their revenue supply. Commercial vehicle operators are used to a woeful standard of service and useless warranties from ALL manufacturers so I bid you a hearty welcome to the experience!

 

On a more positive note;

 

Remove your vehicle from the dealer and seek out one of the many independent garages that can cope with gearbox repairs to large vehicles. You will halve your labour costs and will still get the proper original equipment parts that the dealer would have used.

 

A gearbox repair to the first/second synchro, along with a new 2nd gear will take about 8 hours to do (including removing the box) and the parts should cost no more than £200 to £250. Probably about £600 plus vat then and approx half what the main dealer would charge you. You should also have a new clutch and slave cylinder fitted at the same time adding another £180 or so.

 

When you have decided where to get it done, phone Fiat back and accept their derisory offer as long as it comes in the form of a cheque addressed to you. It will help towards the cost of getting someone that is competent and cares about your business to do the job. You will not get any more out of Fiat beacause they have no concience, nor, alas, do they have any legal obligation to offer you more.

 

It is most unusual to have a problem with 1st/2nd. Much more common is crunching into 4th. We had a couple of vans go that early in mileage terms and of course this was picked up by the warranty. That is the problem with motorhomes; you barely give them a shake down during the first few years which is probably why Fiat thought they could get away with ignoring the X250 judders to begin with.

 

Good luck; if you need any help with part numbers or anything, just PM your chassis number.

 

Nick

[Brian Kirby]

That's a relief, Nick, having tootled your trumpet so loudly on your behalf, I feared you might be on holiday!  :-D

If Ruby now says whereabouts she lives, it may be that some other knight in shiny armour will be able to recommend a suitable, nearby, gearbox expert.  You never know!

[RubyExsis]

Thanks to Brian and Nick for the knowledgeable info.

The van only had a 2 year warranty, but 15000 miles careful driven and lightly loaded use didn't sit well with me.

To be fair the 'authorised repairer', not dealer - a good point from Nick, has been quite helpful and was recommended to me.......but there is more intrigue with regards to cost and the hours quoted by Nick has a relevance here.

During the diagnostic test drive by the service technician to confirm the problem he told me that the 'time allowed' was about 7 hours for engine/gearbox removal and refit plus repairs would be about 10 hours.

The telephone quote which I got later, was for £ 644 labour and 168.32 + sundries for parts +vat (seemed fair enough to me in my mind, ie 10 hrs@£64)......but it gets intersting and have I come across a scam or was what I got into just a series of mistakes and mis-information between the repairer and Fiat?

Fiat in their £100 'goodwill' offer, told me that the repairer was already offering me a good discount on the labour bill and will offer me 10% off parts, as they were not charging me their normal rate of £64 but were charging 14 hours at £46 - £644 see above). I asked Fiat to match the discount because I would not be faced with such a huge labour bill if their components had been satisfactory in the first place -no luck of course.

???? I am now thinking seems convenient £644 which ever way???

So I phoned my local garage and got the recommended time for 2002-2006 Ducatto engine removal/refit, which is 7 hours so with 3 hours for repair = 10 hours ...same as service technician quoted, so where did 14 hours come from.

Telephoned the repairer to sort the hours out - alarm that their technician had quoted 10 hrs (same as my local garage) and they said that they would look into it. When they got back they agreed 10 hours and still offered the £46/hr rate - brilliant now only £460 labour +10% off parts.

The repairers explanation is that the 14 hours is for the new model Ducatto, which I thought was odd and seemed a retrograde step to build a new model worst than the old for repair. The guy agreed and said that the job was basically similar.

?????So what is going on, was the repairer/Fiat trying it on with the hours, are the hours allowed really longer on the new model and why, or is it all mis-communication. Of course if the time allowed for basically the same job is longer - if all the warranty repair costs are not met by Fiat, money can be clawed back by charging the customer more - synical, I know, but have I stumbled into something here?

Still trying to get through to the motor industry codes helpline.

Fred

[Brian Kirby]

Ruby(Exsis) - 2010-07-08 12:16 PM ..............When they got back they agreed 10 hours and still offered the £46/hr rate - brilliant now only £460 labour +10% off parts.

Since this appears to represent quite a fair reduction in cost, I think I'd be inclined to accept and get it done.  You might get more by pursuing your enquiries, or you just might annoy someone until they withdraw their offer!  I can feel your irritation, and I sympathise, but I think it is time to bite the proverbial bullet and get on with the rest of your life.  Easy for me to say, I know, so apologies, and not intended to be flippant.

The repairers explanation is that the 14 hours is for the new model Ducatto, which I thought was odd and seemed a retrograde step to build a new model worst than the old for repair. .......... Fred

This one is easy.  It is because the new model is perfect, and will never need repair, so the case cannot arise.  Simples!  :-D

[RubyExsis]

Yes Brian, I think that is probably sound advice - as usual and much appreciated.

I more or less came to a similar conclusion yesterday. Yes, perhaps they should offer more, but probably will not and given the circumstances that it is well out of warranty and not dealer serviced (although only 15k milage) - the 'goodwill' factor could easily be lost and then my only option for perhaps only a little better than £100 compensation would be a long hard and perhaps costly legal route.

With this in mind, I booked the van into the 'authorised repairer' yesterday.

On the basis that I have booked the vehicle in for repair, I will write to Fiat and see if there is any hope of either a more sympathetic offer, or perhaps a review after the parts have been removed and inspected.

regards, Fred

[Laura]

Just an idea but one we didnt realise.

When the van is sitting and its pouring down with rain check the water from the skuttle pan is not dumping straight onto your gearbox.

When our machanic checked this and drained the oil we had lots of water in the oil which is apparently a known problem.

Thanks.

[TnT]

I have similar problems on an older model Boxer but two things strike me about your problem:-

All your quotations seem to be from Fiat dealers or authorised agents and are priced at main dealer rates: do you not have a specialist gearbox company in your area?

If so, they will likely be very much less expensive.

The possibility of solving your synchromesh problem might be solved by changing your gearbox lubricant: I am just about to try Amsoil Synthetic Manual Syncromesh Transmission Fluid from Performance Oils Ltd: it allegedly meets a General Motors specification which in the USA was widely hailed for its ability to solve synchromesh problems. It could be worth your while to spend the small amount of money the oil change would cost to see if it solves the problem and saves you the cost of replacing the 1st/2nd synchromesh.

[euroserv]

Hello TNT,

 

I have to disagree with you here;

 

While putting a more specialised oil in a gearbox may help it to resist wear, you should not put anything other than what the manufacturer specifies in a gearbox while it is under warranty. What you do with older gearboxes is entirely your choice though.

 

When you have a synchro problem you may just have worn teeth or friction surfaces but equally likely is that one of the spring retainers is broken. The broken pieces must be removed before they can cause any more harm so you should always have the box removed and examined.

 

Quieting the gearbox with fancy oils is false economy, or worse; an expensive waste of time with more costly damage almost inevitable.

 

Nick

[747]

Can I have the downright cheek to ask a syncromesh question for my car?

 

I have a Skoda Roomster (mechanically VW and with only 24,000 miles on the clock) 1.4 turbodiesel. It has a fairly big step up from 1st to 2nd gear. The syncro is fine when starting off but after a while, it crunches a bit between 1st and 2nd when changing up. I am a bit puzzled as to why it does not happen all of the time. Is this normal?

[RubyExsis]

Hello TNT,

Presumably this comment was in response to my original posts in July.

For the record the lugs were sheared off the ring - (but retrieved from the gearbox).

The parts had to be replaced and that solved the problem. Even when a Fiat engineer inspected the parts on site, Fiat would not agree to pay more than the £100 offerred. Privately and off the record the mechanics and a specialist gearbox place that I took the broken parts to all thought the original part was probably faulty - but of course didn't have the means to substantiate that. I contacted a metallurgy testing Lab, but you would not believe the cost of testing and reporting - way more than the final negotiated cost of the repair. Experts technical or legal don't come cheap!.

 

I took Nick's and Brian's sound advice, bit the bullet and got on with Life.

My advice would be to use recommended lubricants and in the case of repairs requiring a contribution from Fiat - use their agents.

 

Fred