Steve928 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 John52 - 2021-02-03 9:37 PM Fiat seem to have given up on keeping water out entirely, because they added the plastic cover over the top of the engine to stop water getting on the injectors and rusting them in. Which would be good, if the cover actually worked. Sadly water dripping off the O/S wiper arm assembly (coming down behind the 'scuttle' or down the wiper arm axle itself) puddles then overflows down the cutout in the engine cover. Water dripping off the N/S wiper assembly misses the cover altogether and drips directly into the cutout. The water ends up in the injector wells. I expect that the cover was designed for LHD vans where it works well, presumably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve hill Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 The problem of water leaks into the engine area of Ducatos has gone on for 25 years which is outrageous. Do not treat it lightly, it is known to have causes numerous problem in the long term to bodywork,electrics, battery supports, exhausts, subframes on radiators, brake pipes, steering pipes etc etc etc If you can seal it out DO IT or regret it later is my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 This is a well discussed subject, with many references and potential fixes on this and other forums - so well worth doing a search. I'd be less concerned about the screen to scuttle seal, and more with how the drainage in the scuttle itself can be improved. There are plenty of options, and creating additional limber/drain holes is easy [in my opinion essential] and clearly an advantage. There's a guy on the fun forum who's made a little 3D printed kit for the two smaller existing X250 drains which are for sale via the classifieds. I guess a combination of the P extrusion and additional drainage is the belt and braces approach. I would say that once you've improved the situation and re-directed the run-off with suitable tubing, leave a cable tie [pulled to create a P shape] in each drain hole to act as a clearing rod - because however big and however many drains you add they will still get bunged up with debris! I would not advocate the use of Plumbers Mait* for this, or any other sealing project on your van - in the same way I wouldn't recommend PlayDoh or BluTac either! *I'm sure someone will come along shortly to dispute this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 globebuster - 2021-02-04 10:31 AM This is a well discussed subject, with many references and potential fixes on this and other forums - so well worth doing a search. I'd be less concerned about the screen to scuttle seal, and more with how the drainage in the scuttle itself can be improved. There are plenty of options, and creating additional limber/drain holes is easy [in my opinion essential] and clearly an advantage. There's a guy on the fun forum who's made a little 3D printed kit for the two smaller existing X250 drains which are for sale via the classifieds. I guess a combination of the P extrusion and additional drainage is the belt and braces approach. I would say that once you've improved the situation and re-directed the run-off with suitable tubing, leave a cable tie [pulled to create a P shape] in each drain hole to act as a clearing rod - because however big and however many drains you add they will still get bunged up with debris! I would not advocate the use of Plumbers Mait* for this, or any other sealing project on your van - in the same way I wouldn't recommend PlayDoh or BluTac either! *I'm sure someone will come along shortly to dispute this! You would not advocate..........because...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 The following 2020 and 2015 forum threads are about water leakage through the windscreen/scuttle joint with several cross-reference links within the 2020 discussion. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Water-Ingress-Scuttle-/55423/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-Ducato-scuttle-issue/38410/ jumpstart - 2021-02-04 11:07 AM globebuster - 2021-02-04 10:31 AM ...I would not advocate the use of Plumbers Mait* for this, or any other sealing project on your van - in the same way I wouldn't recommend PlayDoh or BluTac either! *I'm sure someone will come along shortly to dispute this! You would not advocate..........because...? These are some earlier forum threads (in descending date order) where “Plumbers Mait” was suggested as a sealant for motorhome DIY tasks. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Sealant-/54801/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Silicone-seal-cleaning/49414/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Sealant-for-reversing-camera-wiring-/48776/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/water-leak-past-tv-aerial/47094/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Water-Ingress-Spongy-Ceiling/37732/ As far as I’m aware only John52/Peter James has ‘advocated’ using Plumbers Mait for purposes other than those EVO-STIK describes in the product’s technical data-sheet. https://trade.evo-stik.co.uk/sites/trade_evostik_uk/files/2019-12/TDS00331.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Duck Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I've sealed the scuttle panel to the screen with this https://www.screwfix.com/p/geocel-the-works-pro-sealant-and-adhesive-black-290ml/635jj Also sealed the centre joint in the panel with the same. It's worked fine and no water now runs down behind the panel. I've also made my own fittings for the outer pair of scuttle drains as I detailed in my two posts in this thread https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-Ducato-Windscreen-Drainage/56263/ That also contains my rant on the need for any of this!! Together with the fitting of the Fiat under bonnet centre collector/drain, our engine is about as protected from water running over the engine as I think it can be. However, I still maintain that all of this simply shouldn't be needed. I imagine it's a minor issue to Fiat as most Ducattos are driven by White Van Man and if his engine gets wet overnight it's of little bother to him as it'll be dry once it's warmed up in the morning. For a motorhome, it's a bit different as they're not driven every day. FD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 The Geocel sealant should be an excellent choice. Product details are here https://www.tikkurila.co.uk/amfile/file/download/file/6913/product/4203/ https://www.tikkurila.co.uk/amfile/file/download/file/6922/product/4203/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Some people seem unable to think outside the box. They have to use the manufacturers recommendation - even when it quite clearly has not worked. Wheras I use Plumbers Mait not because its recommended on the data sheet, but because it actually works. You will curse those setting sealants when you have to repair the wipers or washers :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-02-04 3:08 PM The Geocel sealant should be an excellent choice. Product details are here I'd be wary of using a adhesive as You & Fred suggest rather go with some thing non setting to enable easy removal of scuttle in the future as John suggests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Duck Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 witzend - 2021-02-05 11:47 AM Derek Uzzell - 2021-02-04 3:08 PM The Geocel sealant should be an excellent choice. Product details are here I'd be wary of using a adhesive as You & Fred suggest rather go with some thing non setting to enable easy removal of scuttle in the future as John suggests It doesn't, actually, 'set' in the traditional sense. The trick is to only use the thinnest of beads rather than a full tube per side! I have removed the off side half of scuttle panel once and it came away pretty easily. Just required careful easing along the seam with the blade of my putty knife. FD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 “Plumbers Mait” is a grey sticky putty that is sold in a plastic tub - about £4 for 750g - and I’ve attached a couple of photos below. (I have a tub of this stuff, but I’d never use it for a motorhome DIY task unless I was absolutely desperate and could not get hold of anything else more suitable.) Thinking outside the box (TOTB) was something that, as a computer programmer/systems analyst, was natural to me, but it’s not automatically a sensible or desirable way of decision making. Big DT was a red hot TOTBer, but megalomaniacs (and Chatterbox cage fighters) have unusual brain-wiring and - based on Trump’s record - I’m not sure I’d want him to advise on curing a Ducato windscreen water leak. ;-) https://bearingdrift.com/2020/04/24/president-trump-still-thinking-outside-the-box/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Plumbers Mate is probably not best used on the windscreen as when it gets hot( summer) it tends to be very sticky and runs. It would end up all over the place. A polymer that can be used wet or dry is probably the best bet. On reading this article i realised my vehicle also needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Slightly off topic but it wasn't my idea. ;-) It was of course a stupid thing for Trump to say in public because it could encourage people to take too much. But, to be fair, there is some logic in it. We have chlorine in our tap water, and Bleach is recommended in drinking water when there is nothing better https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/emergency-disinfection-drinking-water Its all about moderation - just enough to stop bacteria reproducing, and no more. Most things will kill us if we take too much Even good wholesome food will kill you if you stuff yourself with it. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 I would imagine that a manufacturers recommendation failing in service, could be attributed to user error. In my line of work thinking outside the box is something that occurs on a regular basis. Most decent sealants - be that PU, Silicone or Hybrids are easy enough to remove - especially if you do think outside the aforesaid! Frankly, whatever you decide to use is hardly likely to concern me, and it's up to you the individual, to choose what recommendations you follow. I'm merely trying to help, based on 40 years knowledge and experience with sealants and adhesives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 You need to roll a bit of plumber's mait in your hand to mix it and make it pliable Looking at the photos above is like taking the top off a tin of paint, seeing the oily puddles on the top, and assuming thats how it will look when applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 As Plumbers Mait (PM) is not ‘gunnable’, it’s not easy to see how it could be introduced under the rubber seal that forms the windscreen-to-scuttle joint that SHOULD prevent rainwater from entering an X250’s engine compartment. I know you've used PM when refitting roof-lights (and I’ve used it when plumbing in domestic toilets) but have you actually used it successfully to address a leaking windscreen/scuttle joint on an X250 vehicle and, if so, how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-02-06 12:29 PM As Plumbers Mait (PM) is not ‘gunnable’, it’s not easy to see how it could be introduced under the rubber seal that forms the windscreen-to-scuttle joint that SHOULD prevent rainwater from entering an X250’s engine compartment. I know you've used PM when refitting roof-lights (and I’ve used it when plumbing in domestic toilets) but have you actually used it successfully to address a leaking windscreen/scuttle joint on an X250 vehicle and, if so, how? Yes I did it when I took the 2 black plastic scuttle panels off to get to replace the wiper mechanism. Roll the plumbers mate into a string and spread it on the joint before pressing it down. The panels are held by 4 screws and a few plastic clips - which unfortunately tend to break if they are old and brittle when you prize the panel off but there is no alternative if you need to get to the wiper mechanism or washers. You can buy suitable replacement plastic clips in oddpacks at a good auto shop. (or cheaper on ebay but if you go to an auto shop you can take one in to match it) So I would just undo the screws and prize the panel up enough to put the string of plumbers mate behind it if you are not taking the panel off for something else. Or just do the worst bit - where the 2 panels join - you could prize them up enough to push the string of plumber's mate under with a scraper tool. If you do have to take the panel off to get to the wiper mechanism its well worth removing the bonnet first - only 4 bolts and you can replace the bolts where they have left marks in the paint to avoid having to adjust the bonnet position. I probably wouldn't go to the bother of removing the scuttle panel just to seal it though as I guess the rain will still get in somewhere else. Easiest way is black vinyl (electricians) tape as suggested earlier. And perhaps plumbers mate just for wher the 2 panels join in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 John52 - 2021-02-06 3:12 PM Easiest way is black vinyl (electricians) tape as suggested earlier. This is the vinyl tape I referred to as designed for exterior body work applications not electrical tape https://tinyurl.com/y5ddqplt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 witzend - 2021-02-06 10:57 PM John52 - 2021-02-06 3:12 PM Easiest way is black vinyl (electricians) tape as suggested earlier. This is the vinyl tape I referred to as designed for exterior body work applications not electrical tape https://tinyurl.com/y5ddqplt What's the difference? Apart from the price 8-) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Toolstation do a black polythene tape ,not Duck or cloth tape, which I have and I will cut and put it on today or tomorrow ....see if it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 John52 - 2021-02-07 9:03 AM witzend - 2021-02-06 10:57 PM John52 - 2021-02-06 3:12 PM Easiest way is black vinyl (electricians) tape as suggested earlier. This is the vinyl tape I referred to as designed for exterior body work applications not electrical tape https://tinyurl.com/y5ddqplt What's the difference? Apart from the price 8-) ;-) Already indicated twice in this thread but if You can't see the difference between plumbers mate and automotive sealants ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-02-07 10:46 AM Toolstation do a black polythene tape ,not Duck or cloth tape, which I have and I will cut and put it on today or tomorrow ....see if it works. Spec looks good its intend for exterior application so should last longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 I’ve cut some strips of tape and it appears it adhere well to the windscreen and plastic. I’ll now wait for the ice,snow and rain to see if it stays on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-02-07 11:53 AM I’ve cut some strips of tape and it appears it adhere well to the windscreen and plastic. I’ll now wait for the ice,snow and rain to see if it stays on. It was Hot weather / sunshine which did for mine when I used electrical tape but yours is designed to be used under those conditions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 It is possible to obtain black (matte or shiny) ‘permanent’ vinyl - Oracal 651 is an example. After a French caravanner had carelessly scraped his caravan against the corner of my Hobby motorhome’s front bumper on a campsite, I disguised the (fortunately minor) damage with some of that material. The attached image (not of my Hobby) shows the original black stripe on the front bumper that, in my case, got partially torn off. I replaced it (on both bumper sides) with a pair of stripes cut from Oracal 651 sheeting and there were no signs of it coming away or degrading when I sold the Hobby several years later. (Getting Oracal 651 in a form long enough to go across an X250’s windscreen in one piece might be challenging though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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