240kg load margin anyone?

[dikyenfo]

My capacity is 960 Kg and we use a BV64e trailer for the heavy stuff ,but we do go away for extended periods. Looking at all the biguns around we despair at the exemptions these people put on themselves as many places are prohibited by their size including many sites as the roads are v. narrow in many of them . We have seen many expensive vans damaged extensively by trying to get round and out the campsites.

We have a full complement of equipment on board and still have 200Kg left in reserve with a full fuel tank water tank and 2 gas bottles[6& 13].

All the 25 boxes of wine I usually bring back go in the trailer.

The 5 bed capacity is more than enough for the 2 of us and dont regret not buying the monster I set out to get. Thank God for my wife and her common sense.

[Meadows Engine]

The 3500kg motorhome tested in the October Caravan Club magazine had an MIRO of 3314kg but with only half a tank of water. So with a full water tank and one passenger, only 75kg would be left for every thing else! Not really a great vehicle for a couple to tour with in fact probably impossible

 

I agree with Travelling Tyke when testing a motorhome the magazines should make it very obvious and give its true as tested weight, including driver, with full fuel and water and also for completeness its actual front and back axle weights and not just repeat the sales brochure figures.

 

Particularly in the case of club magazines where such tests could be seen by its members as a recommendation.

 

In real life the first time a buyer actually gets the opportunity to know what his pay load is, is after he has bought and used it. An uncomfortable and expensive revelation for many.

 

I also agree with Brian Kirby, 250kg is a less than generous payload and very restrictive

 

Can I ask my fellow travelers in what ball park do you think a payload for a couple touring in France for say 4 –6 weeks at a time should be ( after driver , fuel, water) to start the ball rolling I would say 400-500 kg , am I being unrealistic? what do you think.

 

[flicka]

Our Autocruise Sportstar on a 3500kg chassis, runs at 3120kg MRO, with full Water Tank, Full Fuel Tank, Gas Bottles (2 x 6lb), Driver etc.. (MRO - Mass in Running Order) That does include an Awning @ c45kg.

Gives me adequate payload @ 380kg for Wife, her Mobility Scooter & Wheelchair, plus all the other needs.

But if I filled all 4 passenger seats, I would be getting closer to the MAM. (Max Allowable Mass)

I normally run with approx 1/3 Fresh Water, which gives me another 60+kg (i.e. one smaller passenger)

The biggest single impact on payload is additional passengers, as you need to allow around 75kg per adult.

[Brian Kirby]

Assuming you start from the usual givens: full fuel and fresh water tanks, maximum number of gas cylinders of maximum practical size - full, all base vehicle tools, spare wheel (if fitted), habitation battery, and a nominal 75kg for driver, all included within the unladen weight, I would say 500kg, or preferably more, is desirable.

You will add some weight by kitting out your van with mains lead, probably ramps, at least one bucket, some tools, maybe windscreen wash, domestic cleaning kit, maybe a small vacuum cleaner, toilet chemical, toilet rolls, kitchen towel, and a variety of boxes to put such items as spare clothes and possibly shoes, spare bedding, walking boots, maybe cycle helmets, torches, compass, sat nav, tyre gauges, inflater, windscreen squeegee.  You may add a wind out awning (heavy) possibly a bike rack + bike/s, satellite dish, solar panel/s etc, maybe an additional battery (heavy), all of which will deduct from your available payload.

To these you will add maps, guides, food, cutlery, drinks, all kinds of chargers, razor, cosmetics, shower/washing paraphernalia, your normal clothes and bedding, pillows, spare bulbs, books, maybe table linen and napkins, washing, and washing up detergent, gas lighter, matches, minute timer, knife sharpener, cameras, probably a laptop, mobile phones, and doubtless a number of things I can't think of at present.  None of these is of great weight in itself, but add them all together, and you'll be surprised!  You will undoubtedly carry one passenger, plus maybe your pet Vietnamese pot bellied pig, or whatever.  I prefer to have the van comfortably below its MAM, partly because I don't like things being right at their limits when driving long distances in hotter climates on sometimes indifferent roads, and partly because I want a reserve in case I feel compelled to take home some bottles of this and that!

On the above "unladen" basis, but with driver and passenger on board, ours has just over 700kg payload, reduced to 170kg when fully laden.  We have an awning, but no sat dish, bike rack (but sometimes take folding bikes) solar panel, or extra battery.  170kg of bottles @ 1.25 kg/bottle is way more than I ever buy, so the margin is preserved even going home, er hofficer!  :-)

[Poppy]

Right again Brian and yes its the little things you add, often over a period of time and they do add up.

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi, During the argument with Peugeot about our wobbly gearbox problem, they requested us to go to a weighbridge empty and get the unladen weight of our Autocruise Stargazer. Result with no driver on board and fully unladen as requested was 2945 kgs.

This included a windout awning, and bike rack as extras , the awning was factory fitted and bike rack done by dealer.

 

Before setting off for holiday last year, with bikes, full gas, full water and essential domestic and personal items camera, laptop,essential food stocks, etc, etc , a return visit to weighbridge showed 3425 kg without driver or passenger.

 

Driver and passenger would have taken us over 3500 limit so we had to dump the bikes, remove the sunloungers, empty some of the wardrobe contents , welly boots, etc and dump half the water and decided to take a chance that brought us into limits. I have grave doubts that we were now down to 3500, but couldnt agree what else to leave behind..

 

fortunately we had no problems, but reading all the other comments, makes me realise we have to think carefully for our next outing.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

[Tony Jones]

Because ours is a 2-berth, we very rarely carry passengers unless we're using it as a "car," in which case there's less "domestic" stuff - especially water, food and drink. Since it's a not-very-roomy van conversion, we've always assumed it'd be physically impossible to exceed our MAM, so never bothered too much about it.

Last summer, though, we went camping with a gang from church and helped out with transport, including taking two passengers and towing someone's caravan.

When we checked (in advance!) on a weighbridge, we realised we'd have to travel with an empty water tank to keep the van (just!) inside its limit. Even though the caravan was an older model with few luxuries, we couldn't let other members of the party use it as a "baggage wagon," or we'd have exceeded our GTW. So we had to restrict the caravan's contents to the personal effects of those who were to live in it. Still tight, but we made it!

 

Point of this? Even if you're convinced you're "normally" within your limits, watch out for those unusual circumstances which could push you over!

[lennyhb]

After adding awning, 2nd battery, bike rack etc we were left with 270kg pay load could have been worse but having Alloy wheels fitted saved 15 kg.

 

We find with enough gear on board for 3 to 4 weeks away, 2 bikes, 75% tank fuel, about 75% water, full gas tanks we weigh in about 20kg over the 3500.

 

We like to travel with at least 75% water (120Lt tank) I can't do without my morning shower & we have been caught out before so like at least 3 days water supply on board as you never know when you can fill up.

 

Have thought a few times about re-plating to 3850 but me thinks it will only encourage us to carry more junk.

 

 

[euroserv]

Robinhood - 2010-11-08 7:51 PM

 

euroserv - 2010-11-08 4:27 PM

 

I think it would be really neat if somebody could design a kind of camper van but without an engine. Maybe 2 axles would be nice so you could tow it behind a car with some stability and be able to load it and the car with anything you might need for the trip. I reckon if you used a 4x4 to tow it you might be able to get away with about 3,000kg of towed 'camper-thing' and you would have a car to drive about in when you got settled where you were going.

 

Would it catch on? I bet it would work out cheaper. Also; think about it... only snails carry their house about with them, and they are not exactly sprightly are they?

 

Nick

 

I was intrigued, so I did a bit of research.

 

In reality, you would need a pretty substantial 4x4 to tow 3 tons (Your average, tuggers favourite, KIA or Hyundai at around £25K, wont). So you're in Landrover Discovery territory at £36K plus.

 

Add a twin axle caravan at £18K plus and you're already in high class motorcaravan territory.

 

So I'm not convinced you'd be cheaper.

 

Looking at the weights, with the standard KIA type 4x4 and a double axle (combined), it doesn't look like you'd gain much payload over the best of motorcaravans either, especially if running with an empty water tank.

 

You might have a bit more room, and yes, you'd have transport on-site, but some of us prefer to walk or cycle during our leisure time.

 

 

:-)

 

Some valid points made there.

 

In fact though, you could buy a perfectly serviceable 3 year old Discovery for much less than £20k which would still do an admirable job although less appealing to the magpies among you that only like new, shiny things.

 

Here is an even more avant-garde method:

 

Buy yourself a LWB Fiat Ducato or Transit panel van. Buy a towable house that weighs less than 2500kg in standard trim. Get your new van fitted with an extra row of seats 'crew-van' style and still have change from £25k. You now have a van large enough to carry you, wife, kids and all the detritus that you cannot manage without, while your temporary accomodation resides behind you. You can take bikes, mopeds or even a quad bike with you since you have about 1000kg of load to play with.

 

A bit 'new age traveller' I know, but cheaper than your european assault vehicles with car behind, plus all within the law and much more flexible.

 

I understand that someone has beaten me to the towable house thing and they are called 'caravans'. Very imaginitive! I believe you can also buy these second hand for not much more than £10k so either one of my methods could be on the road for £30 to £40k and you get a decent car/van into the bargain for when you are not parked on a car park next to a French motorway waiting to get robbed.

 

Nick

[Poppy]

Real light weight campers don't use caravans or motorhomes.They use tents and carry them in back packs or on bikes.Met an elderly Belgian guy in France cycling and camping in Spain. He did have a little trailer behind his bike for the dog! Total respect actually.

[Poppy]

Real light weight campers don't use caravans or motorhomes.They use tents and carry them in back packs or on bikes.Met an elderly Belgian guy in France cycling and camping in Spain. He did have a little trailer behind his bike for the dog! Total respect actually.

[mike 202]

flicka - 2010-11-09 10:00 PM

 

Our Autocruise Sportstar on a 3500kg chassis, runs at 3120kg MRO, with full Water Tank, Full Fuel Tank, Gas Bottles (2 x 6lb), Driver etc.. (MRO - Mass in Running Order) That does include an Awning @ c45kg.

Gives me adequate payload @ 380kg for Wife, her Mobility Scooter & Wheelchair, plus all the other needs.

But if I filled all 4 passenger seats, I would be getting closer to the MAM. (Max Allowable Mass)

I normally run with approx 1/3 Fresh Water, which gives me another 60+kg (i.e. one smaller passenger)

The biggest single impact on payload is additional passengers, as you need to allow around 75kg per adult.

[mike 202]

flicka - 2010-11-09 10:00 PM

 

Our Autocruise Sportstar on a 3500kg chassis, runs at 3120kg MRO, with full Water Tank, Full Fuel Tank, Gas Bottles (2 x 6lb), Driver etc.. (MRO - Mass in Running Order) That does include an Awning @ c45kg.

.

 

Flicka are the weights you quote for MRO brochure figures or your own from a weighbridge ?

 

Mike

[graham]

To be fair to Eldiss if you read the small print on the spec sheet the MIRO includes the manufacturing tolerance, driver, full fuel tank, 90% water and full gas bottles - say 200kg. It stiil leaves the Aspire short on payload but the Autoquest is pretty acceptable.

[StewartJ]

Aspire, sod the payload the bathroom is brilliant enough to win awards 8-)

 

http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/washroom-winners-motorhome-2011.php?utm_source=freedom-motorhome&utm_medium=email&utm_content=washroom-awards-2011&utm_campaign=november2010&utm_content=sjhingston%40ukonline.co.uk&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Motorhome Washrooms Awards 2011&utm_campaign=Adria Twin GT reviewed - Freedom November

 

Stewart

 

 

[flicka]

mike 202 - 2010-11-10 3:45 PM

 

flicka - 2010-11-09 10:00 PM

 

Our Autocruise Sportstar on a 3500kg chassis, runs at 3120kg MRO, with full Water Tank, Full Fuel Tank, Gas Bottles (2 x 6lb), Driver etc.. (MRO - Mass in Running Order) That does include an Awning @ c45kg.

.

 

Flicka are the weights you quote for MRO brochure figures or your own from a weighbridge ?

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike

Autocruise quote Mass in Running Order as 3025kg, which gives 475kg payload. (usual inclusion - i.e.75% Water/Fuel/Gas +75kg for driver)

 

My figures are based on actual Weighbrige readings.

Front Axle 1540kg

Rear Axle 1680kg

MAM 3120kg

Includes all our add-ons, Level Ramps, Wheelchair Ramps, EHU cables, Toolkit, Food, most of our clothing, my fishing gear and ready to go (2 week trip) excluded Wife, Mobility Scooter, Wheelchair & a few clothes.

(say total 100kg to add, wife on front axle, Mobility Scooter & Wheelchair on rear axle )

[Mel B]

flicka - 2010-11-10 10:59 PM

 

Hi Mike

Autocruise quote Mass in Running Order as 3025kg, which gives 475kg payload. (usual inclusion - i.e.75% Water/Fuel/Gas +75kg for driver)

 

My figures are based on actual Weighbrige readings.

Front Axle 1540kg

Rear Axle 1680kg

MAM 3120kg

Includes all our add-ons, Level Ramps, Wheelchair Ramps, EHU cables, Toolkit, Food, most of our clothing, my fishing gear and ready to go (2 week trip) excluded Wife, Mobility Scooter, Wheelchair & a few clothes.

(say total 100kg to add, wife on front axle, Mobility Scooter & Wheelchair on rear axle )

 

flicka ... do you mean your actual fully laden weight is 3120kg, rather than your MAM which is 3500kg??? The total of your axle weights is actually 3220kg, not 3120kg .... :$

[Meadows Engine]

Interesting figures Flicka

If your MIRO is 3025kg with 75% (rather than 90%) Fuel, water, gas & driver and your loaded up weight is 3220kg then with your wife (75kg), scooter (80kg) and wheelchair (20kg) plus a few clothes (15kg) on board your total payload is around 385 kg, which seems to me around normal and leaves you around 90kg in hand before you reach your MAM..

The figures in brackets are my estimates please give my apologies to the wife if my 75kg upsets her !!

 

John

 

[flicka]

Mel B - 2010-11-11 6:39 PM

 

flicka - 2010-11-10 10:59 PM

 

Hi Mike

Autocruise quote Mass in Running Order as 3025kg, which gives 475kg payload. (usual inclusion - i.e.75% Water/Fuel/Gas +75kg for driver)

 

My figures are based on actual Weighbrige readings.

Front Axle 1540kg

Rear Axle 1680kg

MAM 3120kg

Includes all our add-ons, Level Ramps, Wheelchair Ramps, EHU cables, Toolkit, Food, most of our clothing, my fishing gear and ready to go (2 week trip) excluded Wife, Mobility Scooter, Wheelchair & a few clothes.

(say total 100kg to add, wife on front axle, Mobility Scooter & Wheelchair on rear axle )

 

flicka ... do you mean your actual fully laden weight is 3120kg, rather than your MAM which is 3500kg??? The total of your axle weights is actually 3220kg, not 3120kg .... :$

 

Oops apologies- Typo's on my part, problem with being called away, having just submitted post.

 

Front axle should read 1440kg

MAM should read MIRO.

 

Fortunately the Mobility Scooter is only 25kg & the Wheelchair only 12kg.

SHMBO will have my fingers off if I answer the other. (but less than 75kg)

So 3120 + addons = maybe 3250kg actual MIRO.

 

I sometimes think it would be easier for newcomers if ALL manufacturers quoted the actual built KERB WEIGHT, i.e. no consumables (Fuel, Gas Water, Driver) included.

[duffers]

flicka - 2010-11-11 8:46 PM

 

 

 

I sometimes think it would be easier for newcomers if ALL manufacturers quoted the actual built KERB WEIGHT, i.e. no consumables (Fuel, Gas Water, Driver) included.

 

 

now you really are being silly, they can't do that, we'd all understand what they were talking about

 

good heavens man - what are you thinking *-) *-)

[Brian Kirby]

Instead of starting a new thread, I've resurrected this one, as its relevant - and they're at it again!

February Caravan Club magazine reviews Elddis Aspire 240.  MAM: 3,500kg,  MRO: 3,255kg.  Payload: 245kg!  This, on a 24' / 3.4M long, two berth, "luxury", van.  Price: £49,300 OTR.  There is no comment in the review as to adequacy, or otherwise, of the payload, though he finds space to say he doesn't like the "black" windows.  Well, thank you George Hinton!

From the Elddis website (and price list/brochure), the standard specification does not include an awning, so the weight of that - almost universal - accessory comes straight from the payload.  The way MRO has been calculated is not stated, neither is the gas locker capacity, fresh or waste water tank capacities, nor installed battery size.  It is possible to upgrade the chassis to 4,000kg for £1,140, but why on earth not sit a van this size on the right chassis to start with?

If their buyers are satisfied with the paucity of information they provide, what chance have they of spotting the inadequate payload?  Ah!  Silly me.  The dealers will advise accordingly.  How could I forget?  :-D

[rapidoman]

the other night a local man came round to ask if i was happy with my van (!) it turned out he had ordered the same van for delivery in march, the payload is 420kg without any extras. my van is on the 3800 chassis,so i have the extra payload for the add ons plus some to spare.asked what he ordered? turns out he ordered the standard 3500 unit with upgraded 3 litre comformatic train along with an awning bike rack towbar and sat system all with 420 to play with. told him to think about what he has ordered and ask if it was to late to upgrade ( no licence problem. ) so it seems some dealers are still not giving correct advice but are quite happy to take as much money as possible. he never came back to tell me outcome.

[grahamw]

Brian Kirby - 2011-02-04 2:55 PM

 

The way MRO has been calculated is not stated, neither is the gas locker capacity, fresh or waste water tank capacities, nor installed battery size.  It is possible to upgrade the chassis to 4,000kg for £1,140, but why on earth not sit a van this size on the right chassis to start with?

 

Brian I find this totally exasperating. I have written on a couple of occasions to the Caravan Club about this very issue and have had sympathetic replies including comments from George Hinton regarding the adequacy of discussion in this very important area. What does it take to get the Caravan Club to raise the profile of this very important issue? I'm at a loss!

 

Graham

[Travelling Tyke]

Hello Brian,

 

Very pleased that you have picked this up and posted it.

 

Ever since we first loaded our van up ready to roll and then I checked its weight (We have a weighbridge in the Village) to find that there was only 25 kgs "spare" this "Payload" problem has irked me.

 

IMO, the "Payload" should be one of the main points made in any report/ road test published. I would consider that a report is not "fit for purpose" and is intended to mislead if it is not provided.

 

As a bye, We would have still got the van we have regardless. It has been uprated and re-plated. ( Removing the tow bar lost 55 Kgs! :-D )

 

Must read the MMM reports to see if they include it!

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2011-02-04 2:55 PM

The way MRO has been calculated is not stated, neither is the gas locker capacity, fresh or waste water tank capacities, nor installed battery size. 

To be fair to Elddis, the situation is somewhat better than this as it does give some details in the footnotes as to how the MRO has been calculated and they appear to have absorbed maximum manufacturing tolerances in the figure. However, they are not clear for example on the "driver weight" used, (the conventional, but in my case too little :-(  75kg?) and if you don't know what size water tank, you don't know what margin you have for increasing the payload by reducing water carried.

Whatever, IMO, built on the standard chassis this is an entirely unsuitable vehicle for its probable market. This from someone who has uprated two previous 'vans with already more than twice the payload inquestion here.

I read the CC review and wondered how long it would be before it hit here.

I quite understand the issues around what I'm now going to suggest, and wouldn't be at all surprised to find it discounted, but with a change of editor, and a potential change of emphasis for MMM, is this not the time for it to highlight what many experienced motorcaravanners see as a major issue with our pastime, and for MMM to "up its game in the motorhome review space.

Surely it would not be too difficult to define a (albeit arbitrary) yardstick by which payload could be assessed (indeed, I believe some attempts have been made in previous postings). Frankly, if 'vans are being built to EN standards which result in payloads such as this example, then it is deficient in real-life terms, and needs better scrutiny.

As Brian has highlighted, a real-life load includes awning, driver (full-weight), passengers, bike rack, bikes, personal possessions tv tools, etc. It would not take long to come to a concensus on this forum as to good ball-park figures to use (.....on second thoughts :-S) 

Nothing is absolute, but "editorial comment" (which is of course largely opinion, and therefore not actionable) is commonplace in publications to set an overall tone. I would like to see in each MMM review of a new model, an assessment of its suitabilty for it's "designed" use against such a real-life yardstick, clearly published by MMM. It doesn't need to be a 'smack in the eye' for the manufacturer, but a clear comment at the end of the test as to whether (against the pre-defined criteria) it is considered to have a reasonable payload (for 2, 4, 6 occupants as appropriate).

Frankly, to address another aspect of the problem which has been highlighted recently, I'd also like to see the practice which is common in continental magazines of actually weighing the test vehicle, both overall and front and rear axle, to give some idea of the accuracy of the manufacturer's figures, and the relative weight distribution, front to back. Surely this is not too difficult?  

As advertising is the life-blood of the magazine, then Warner's may see taking on manufacturers as being a step too far (and I would find it hard to blame them, given that there are other bodies who are supposed to control suitability), but I do think  that it is about time someone took up the gauntlet, and as a long-standing reader of MMM, I really would like it to be "them" to find a way.