Are we better off in Europe!

[hymerwoman]

The subject says it all, i think not. We were ok before we went in so why did we and who really has benefitted from imo this disasterous mistake.

 

Apart from more material possesions is our quality of life any better than before. I believe that some people have become obsessed by individual wealth and have helped to create the class system in our society. I am interested in your opinions .

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Personaly I never had a problem with the idea of a common market, but the bureaucratic empire that has engulfed us all, needs tearing down if only to get rid of the corruption >:-(

[BGD]

Britain was never not in Europe.

Europe is a continent.

 

Did you mean to say "European Union"?

 

If so, then the unequivocal answer is "yes".

 

The UK is economically and culturally far better off as a member of the European Union than it would be sitting as an outsider.

 

[Brian Kirby]

hymerwoman - 2010-12-14 12:05 PM The subject says it all, i think not.

I think we are, but the question is really unanswerable, because we cannot know what might have happened to us over the past 30 years had we not joined.

We were ok before we went in so why did we and who really has benefitted from imo this disasterous mistake.

We were not so OK as you seem to think, which is why we joined.  We joined to benefit from access the the European market.  We joined after a referendum.  What is the disaster we have suffered?  We have gained economically from the trade we do with Europe.

Apart from more material possesions is our quality of life any better than before.

The EC is an Economic Community.  It is about wealth and not spirituality.  It does not dictate, or change, how we choose to live.  The question is, IMO, misdirected.  Ask the UK government, or the C of E, if you want the answers.

I believe that some people have become obsessed by individual wealth and have helped to create the class system in our society.................

The class system has existed in the UK since at least 1066.  Obsession with individual wealth became more pronounced, IMO, under Thatcher, but definitely not as a consequence of joining the EC.  Generally, the EC countries are less socially divided, and more left wing, than the UK.  That is why Thatcher so distrusted them.  Where have you been living for the past 30 years?  Much of our socially responsible legislation has come from the EC, not from UK governments.  Is there some point I am missing?

[malc d]

Maybe we were o.k. before we went in but things were a lot different then.

 

One of the main ideas after the war was to unite Europe in a way that would make any future conflict between European countries unthinkable, and I would suggest that that has worked.

 

There may well be a lot of rough edges still to sort out but on the whole I think it was a good thing.

 

 

 

[AliB]

malc d - 2010-12-14 1:16 PM

One of the main ideas after the war was to unite Europe in a way that would make any future conflict between European countries unthinkable, and I would suggest that that has worked.

 

 

 

Spot on malc d. It was de Gaulle who lead the idea of an intergated Europe. After the horrors of World War II he believed that the only way to prevent it happening again was for european countries to learn to respect each other and live closer together in terms of economy.

 

If that had not worked maybe we would now be charging around France in Centaur Tanks rather than motorhomes.

[nowtelse2do]

AliB - 2010-12-14 1:35 PM

malc d - 2010-12-14 1:16 PM One of the main ideas after the war was to unite Europe in a way that would make any future conflict between European countries unthinkable, and I would suggest that that has worked.

Spot on malc d. It was de Gaulle who lead the idea of an intergated Europe. After the horrors of World War II he believed that the only way to prevent it happening again was for european countries to learn to respect each other and live closer together in terms of economy. If that had not worked maybe we would now be charging around France in Centaur Tanks rather than motorhomes.

The only two things de Gaulle was interested in were France and de Gaulle, or should that be the other way round?

It was de Gaulle who block Britain joining the Common Market. As for preventing conflict you only need to look at the way he tried to stir up s**t with the French and English Canadians.

As for other comments about trade with the EU, that doesn't wash with me. We were trading with them whilst not being a member, we trade with them now as members, and we will trade with them if we pull out of the EU, and like I've said before 'The sooner the better' 

Anyway, why do you want to be part of a corrupt EU when we have our own corrupt ruler's.

Dave

 

[nowtelse2do]

Apologies.

Above post should have read, French and English 'speaking'  Canadians.

Dave

[Brian Kirby]

nowtelse2do - 2010-12-14 2:51 PM

........As for other comments about trade with the EU, that doesn't wash with me. We were trading with them whilst not being a member, we trade with them now as members, and we will trade with them if we pull out of the EU, and like I've said before 'The sooner the better' 

Anyway, why do you want to be part of a corrupt EU when we have our own corrupt ruler's.

Dave

It doesn't have to "wash" with you, it is a fact.  We joined because we needed access to the European market.  I mean needed, not just wanted, or would like, we really needed it!  Why else join?  We needed it because our trade with Europe, in relative terms, was declining: mainly because we had to sell to EC countries against tariff barriers.  We were members of EFTA, within which we escaped the trade barriers, but Europe was the bigger, and growing, market.  EFTA then comprised UK, Norway, Switzerland, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden, and Austria.  Now all that is left is Switzerland, and Norway, joined by Iceland and Lichtenstein, all the others are in the EC.  Our net trade would decline, because we should lose the advantage of tariff free exports to Europe, while gaining no advantage with the rest of the world.  So, immediate impact negative, long term probably also declining.  Good idea when you owe the rest of the world a shedload of money?  No, because, as a consequence of leaving, the interest we should have to pay would be very likely to increase.

Plucky little Britain, standing alone against the world?  In your dreams, Bro!  :-)  Whose software makes your computer work?  Whose plastic do you use to buy things?  Whose heavy weaponry does our forces use?  Who owns half our businesses?  To whom do our leaders endlessly defer?  Who owns our railways?  Who builds our trains?  Who owns our gas, water, and electricity companies?  Where is our motor industry?  Where is our aircraft industry?  In short, what is there of Britain, England if you prefer, that we own and have full dominion over?  The world is moving to larger groupings, not fragmenting.  The EC is part of that movement, and the movement has been continuing since nation states were invented.

Do we want corrupt rulers?  Of course we do not.  Sadly, they exist, and the corruption takes many forms.  However, it is not inevitable, and there are many who are not corrupt, both within the EC and elsewhere, as well as the other kind.  We should support the good guys against the corrupt, because we can do more to aid ourselves by so doing than by retreating to our little island and sulking.  Time, methinks, to wake up and smell the coffee, as they say!

[602]

Hi.

 

I would rather live in a hovel that I own, than rent a council palace. I have the same views about the EU. I would rather stand or fall on my own efforts.

 

If somebody asked me if I, personally, would be better off as the 51st (?) State of USA, than as a Eurobody .... I would have to think about it.

 

As for joining the Euro ...... I wish they would make up their minds, one way or the other, so WE can get on with making it work. Some will rise, some will fall, but hey, why change a winning formula.

 

602

[nightrider]

Brian,

From what you say the EC practically owns Britain, what do we own in the EC? The EC is screwing Britain good style.

If the EC countries are so good how come they fell on the floor at the first sniff from the German Panzers exhaust pipes.

I dont care what you or anyone says the EC was brought about to break Britain to pieces.

At one time we had everything in this country not anymore, we are a shadow of our former selves.

[Guest Peter James]

Would have worked better for us if we had participated properly IMO, instead of opting out of everything, the social chapter, the Euro, building up military spending far in excess of any of the other 26 European countries & ignoring the rest of Europe to illegally invade Iraq.

In doing so we have missed out on much of the benefits of Europe - where countries like Spain have got so much new infrastructure from European Grants Britain has insisted on privatizing everything and ended up paying far more.

The rest of Europe has come to expect Britain to be the odd one out. So how can we expect them to take much notice of us?

Our money has lost 20% of its value through not being in the Euro. Yet we are borrowing billions of pounds to bail out Ireland when our Economy is in an even worse state. Because most of Britainds debts like PFI and the bank bailouts are simply ignored in the Governments statistics.

At least the Bankers are doing alright out of it.

[nightrider]

I think we should hook up with Germany and declare war on France (lol)

[Brian Kirby]

knight of the road - 2010-12-14 4:12 PM Brian, From what you say the EC practically owns Britain, what do we own in the EC? The EC is screwing Britain good style. If the EC countries are so good how come they fell on the floor at the first sniff from the German Panzers exhaust pipes. I dont care what you or anyone says the EC was brought about to break Britain to pieces. At one time we had everything in this country not anymore, we are a shadow of our former selves.

Shame, but all further debate is pointless.  Sheer bigotry!  Total and utter twaddle.  Talk about xenophobia!  Where does this stuff come from?  Read a bit of history, then come back.  I'm off.

[Guest peter]

I agree Brian. I think Knight must have stubbed his toe in his shed or he's suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning from the log burner in there. :D

[Big Momma]

knight of the road - 2010-12-14 4:12 If the EC countries are so good how come they fell on the floor at the first sniff from the German Panzers exhaust pipes. I dont care what you or anyone says the EC was brought about to break Britain to pieces.

Are you for real *-)

[Bulletguy]

BGD - 2010-12-14 1:03 PM

 

The UK is economically and culturally far better off as a member of the European Union than it would be sitting as an outsider.

Switzerland remain an 'outsider' as there the people decide.....not the Government. They successfully trade regularly with EU countries and economically i'd say they are doing pretty nicely too thank you. The Swiss franc is also one of the strongest currencies around and continues to be so.

 

Would they be better off as an EU member? I doubt it very very much. Swiss enjoy a high standard of living and quality of life which makes the 'brit' counterpart seem positively third world.

 

 

 

 

[nowtelse2do]

Marvelous, Trying to reply to Brian's post, got three quarter's through it and the bl**dy lap top packs up. Took five hrs to sort out, so will try again.

I'm glad we agree on one thing Brian, That it doesn't wash with me. As for it being a fact that we needed access to the European market, we had the access and should have put the same tariffs on them if they wanted to sell to 55 million customers (Britain.) You ask "why else join" The answer is, because  our brainless leaders at the time wanted us to join and hyped it up so much that it was voted for. Not by me I hasten to add.

Countries that were in the EFTA but didn't join the EU, that is Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, (Lichtenstein, basically a big Bank) Iceland, well we know what happened there, but Norway & Switzerland haven't done to bad by staying out, and this year when we were in Austria & Germany there were a lot of people that were unhappy how things were going in the EU.

As for the interest we would have to pay I think our contributions to the EU plus the other billions we are contributing to Greece, Ireland and whoever is next via the IMF, and direct loans should cover it.

Now this is where we should have shut the door, plucky little Britain lets other countries take over our industries because the rules (and we pride ourselves in obeying the EU rules, 'just like all the other EU countries' 8-) )  say so, but if we try the same it's a no no, so is this where the sulking comes in?

In the end Brian, IMO it will never be a level playing field because of the different cultures and the main players putting there interests first. The European Union will surely fail, and it's beginning to crumble now. A better system was the EFTA but certain countries want to think that they should be the leaders in everything so if they can't play it their way, they start a new game.

I agree about the bigotry. WW2 ended 65 yrs ago, don't whatever you do forget it but learn from it. Like a lot of you, I have traveled through most of Europe and found that I would happily live next door to 99.99% of them. Whether they could live next to me is something else.

Pass the Coffee :-D

Dave

 

[602]

Hi,

 

Britain needs to trade with the rest of the world? I suggest that SOME Britains wanted to trade with the rest of the world .... so they could sell our coal, and their mates could sell somebodyelse's coal back to us.

 

In order to trade, we need to make something that somebody else wants to buy. But it not only has to be better than what they can make themselves, it has to be good enough and cheap enough to overcome any national loyalty the the potential customer might suffer from.

 

The EU is not a level playing field ..... try and get a job in France.

 

But its all we've got ..... so we have to make it work.

 

602

[nightrider]

Brian Kirby - 2010-12-14 5:51 PM

knight of the road - 2010-12-14 4:12 PM Brian, From what you say the EC practically owns Britain, what do we own in the EC? The EC is screwing Britain good style. If the EC countries are so good how come they fell on the floor at the first sniff from the German Panzers exhaust pipes. I dont care what you or anyone says the EC was brought about to break Britain to pieces. At one time we had everything in this country not anymore, we are a shadow of our former selves.

Shame, but all further debate is pointless.  Sheer bigotry!  Total and utter twaddle.  Talk about xenophobia!  Where does this stuff come from?  Read a bit of history, then come back.  I'm off.

Brian,Britain has been asset stripped good style, you ought to change your name to Neville Chamberlain, you have never stuck up for this country, you are an appeaser. You are the one that talks twaddle.

[nightrider]

If Brian is so clever and wise why has he not come up with an explaination as to why there are no audited accounts for the EC? Brian is like a politician, full of spin.

[nightrider]

Before WW2 we had a good industrial basis, we sold goods to the rest of the world not just to Europe.

Where has that industrial basis gone, why has it gone and who was responsible?

And why have we been made reliant on Europe, despite what Brian says imo if it were put to a vote the electorate would vote to come out of the EC

If someone does not think along the same lines as Brian he goes off in a hissy fit.

[CliveH]

Bulletguy - 2010-12-14 11:41 PM

 

BGD - 2010-12-14 1:03 PM

 

The UK is economically and culturally far better off as a member of the European Union than it would be sitting as an outsider.

Switzerland remain an 'outsider' as there the people decide.....not the Government. They successfully trade regularly with EU countries and economically I’d say they are doing pretty nicely too thank you. The Swiss franc is also one of the strongest currencies around and continues to be so.

 

Would they be better off as an EU member? I doubt it very very much. Swiss enjoy a high standard of living and quality of life which makes the 'brit' counterpart seem positively third world.

 

 

 

 

One of the reasons why Switzerland is so successful is because they are an international banking centre with few moral scruples about where the money comes from.

 

Most of the corrupt dictators/despots in the world siphon off their countries/organisations wealth and spirit it away in Swiss bank accounts knowing that the Swiss authorities will protect them.

 

Swiss companies also are able to work about the globe with little or no control from the Swiss Government. The dubious goings on of the like of Hoffman la Roche is testament to that.

 

Personally I think the EU effect on the UK has been positive - but then I am all for sensible laws and some of our UK ones are barmy - so it is good to be able to take the UK law makers to a higher court.

 

What I do not like about the EU is the corruption (our MP's are saints compared to what some MEP's get up to, and I also do not like the idea on an EU President or an EU Defence Force.

 

Neither do I like the idea or the reality of the Euro. Shoehorning and fiddling the figures to allow such different economies to make the entry criteria was always going to end in tears - and it is certainly doing that in the "PIGS" (Portugal, Italy, Greece & Spain).

 

But having travelled a fair bit - I for one feel more at home in mainland Europe than I do in the US or Canada. Not so Australia where there multicultural society is a great success - and I have never been to NZ, so no comment possible from me.

 

To say that the EU is the problem is just blaming another party for our own home grown problems.

 

Could the EU be better organised? - of course.

 

Is it corrupt? - yes in parts

 

Does it introduce sensible dictats? - No, we have a Public Sector that "Gold Plates" sensible EU suggestions into UK law. Many examples of this. Also many examples of other EU countries "side-stepping" any EU directive that adversely affects their economy - why we do not do the same is indicative of the way WE in the UK are governed rather than the influence of the EU upon us.

 

Are we better off outside the Euro? - Yep!

 

Are there financial advantages for us as individuals being EU Citizens? - Yes - on many levels - not least being able to apply more sensible EU laws when the UK laws are demonstrably wrong.

 

Are we better off within Europe on the whole? - An emphatic Yes from me.

 

[malc d]

knight of the road - 2010-12-15 9:53 AM

 

Before WW2 we had a good industrial basis, we sold goods to the rest of the world not just to Europe.

Where has that industrial basis gone, why has it gone and who was responsible?

And why have we been made reliant on Europe, despite what Brian says imo if it were put to a vote the electorate would vote to come out of the EC

If someone does not think along the same lines as Brian he goes off in a hissy fit.

 

 

Malcolm

 

Earlier in this thread you said :

 

" ... the EC was brought about to break Britain to pieces "

 

Do you really believe that the major countries of Europe actually sat around a table and decided to 'Break Britain to pieces ' ?

For what purpose. What would they gain from it when we are one of their markets.

 

When you say something like that you can't really expect to be taken seriously.

 

As for the question 'where has our industry gone ' - it's gone to countries where labour is far cheaper - mainly in Asia.

 

 

 

 

[nightrider]

malc d - 2010-12-15 10:27 AM

 

knight of the road - 2010-12-15 9:53 AM

 

Before WW2 we had a good industrial basis, we sold goods to the rest of the world not just to Europe.

Where has that industrial basis gone, why has it gone and who was responsible?

And why have we been made reliant on Europe, despite what Brian says imo if it were put to a vote the electorate would vote to come out of the EC

If someone does not think along the same lines as Brian he goes off in a hissy fit.

Malc,

I honestly do believe that there was a plot to break Britain and that it was led by France, de Gaul did not want us in the EC did he?

 

 

Malcolm

 

Earlier in this thread you said :

 

" ... the EC was brought about to break Britain to pieces "

 

Do you really believe that the major countries of Europe actually sat around a table and decided to 'Break Britain to pieces ' ?

For what purpose. What would they gain from it when we are one of their markets.

 

When you say something like that you can't really expect to be taken seriously.

 

As for the question 'where has our industry gone ' - it's gone to countries where labour is far cheaper - mainly in Asia.