Hawcara Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Just bought a Chausson on a Ford Chassis. It has a tyre inflation kit. Spare wheel is on order. Whilst I have a small trolley jack at home, I really do not want to cart that around when there is a place under the driver's seat for a jack. Thus what type of jack is it? Transit parts have a scissor jack, but would welcome any advice. I dont really want to change a wheel unless its really necessary, I would much rather get the recovery blokes out. On the other hand dont want to be stranded for hours should they all be drinking wine in the local cafe. Thank you 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 The "factory" jack for the current Transit is a scissors type, which comes with the wheelbrace etc. embedded in a polystyrene moulding that fits the dedicated slot in the drivers footwell.Like yours, my 'van has only the repair kit and no spare wheel, but I got the dealer to supply the toolkit (it was built by Ford with one - and a spare wheel - but Hobby remove these!).Be aware, however, that if your vehicle has had the handbrake relocated to the door side of the drivers seat, that the cable now intrudes on the space where the polystyrene moulding is designed to fit!Judicious use of a sharp knife on the polystyrene, and a bit of struggling to get it into place, will overcome this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 My last van was a Transit panel Van (German conversion) and that not only came with a scissors jack but also an additional adapter plate/mounting that appeared to extend the lifting height of the normal jack described above. Never used it in anger but it may be that the Micheline Camping tyres and alloy wheels fitted made it necessary. I don't know for sure but I would check out that the lifting height is ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Again thank you both. Must admit that I thought Hobby would supply the jack and that Chausson were just being mean. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Correct, there should be a lump of an aly casting to lift the flimsy scissor jack to the right height to get the rear wheels off the road.Incidentally, ours came with pump, a flagon of goo, a jack, and a jack block all from the Hobby factory. Nothing was removed.So, go to Halfords and buy a hydraulic bottle jack (£15 for 2.5 tonne?), and then attack the EPS moulding in the footwell to accommodate the hydraulic jack and its operating lever. A Stanley knife will do it. You may still need a block of wood to lift the jack at the rear if you jack at Fords dotty jacking point instead of under the axle tube, but will probably need one as a spreader under the jack anyway.Result? A jack that could possibly lift the fully laden rear end of a motorhome rather than fail in the attempt, and in any circumstances would require far less effort, in greater safety, than the hopelessly inefficient Ford scissor tosh provided.Final thought. I sincerely hope I never to need the jack because, although I have every confidence it would work, and it is more than capable of lifting the weight, I have this conviction that flat tyres never happen on warm, dry, smooth tarmac, down roads with nice wide hard shoulders, during daylight. Clarting around jacking up 3.5 tonnes on the edge of a muddy rural French road, or the middle of a saturated squidgy campsite, in the rain, in the dark, somehow just doesn't do it for me! Ring breakdown! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Totally agree with you Brian. 3 years ago, I was looking for a small car for my wife. The choice came down to a Kia Picanto or a Peugeot 107. The Peugeot won on the basis that it had a spare wheel. I think it is irresponsible madness, that a person should be stuck at the side of the road with no spare and possibly no way to get home. I realise my wife would not have a clue how to change the wheel, but hopefully some knight in shining armour, might just change it for her. At best the breakdown people would give her a lift home and her car could be left at the side of the road to be used for spare parts by passing twonks. I will not be waiting for a knight in shining armour, just a breakdown bloke. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-01-16 7:43 PM Incidentally, ours came with pump, a flagon of goo, a jack, and a jack block all from the Hobby factory. Nothing was removed. ...except, I suspect, the spare wheel ;-). Ford eTis denotes that mine was built and shipped with one, but Hobby remove it and supply the goo and inflator. I got both of those, but there wasn't a toolkit on the 'van. Whether there should or shouldn't be neither I nor the dealer (or should I say handover tech), knew - but I wanted one and was supplied with it (gratis) a few days later. Final thought. I sincerely hope I never to need the jack because, although I have every confidence it would work, and it is more than capable of lifting the weight, I have this conviction that flat tyres never happen on warm, dry, smooth tarmac, down roads with nice wide hard shoulders, during daylight. Clarting around jacking up 3.5 tonnes on the edge of a muddy rural French road, or the middle of a saturated squidgy campsite, in the rain, in the dark, somehow just doesn't do it for me! Ring breakdown! :-D The only time I've had a (motorhome) puncture was in a fairly large Ducato-based coachbuilt. I count myself reasonably lucky as I'd just driven onto some fairly soft ground on a farm campsite, got out, noticed it straight away, and was able to drive off onto hard-standing to effect a wheel change. Wouldn't have fancied it at all on soft ground. I must admit that I've used the manufacturer supplied jack on all my 'vans for routine checking and maintenance though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Mornin' all.. They've probably redesigned it by now but the scissor jack that can with the '03 Tranny(Duetto)we had,may as well've been made from cheese!!! ..when changing a flat,the eyelet on the jack that you hook the "crank handle" to ,just twisted and broke off! >:-( ..and it didn't look as if it had ever been used before either... Now,when ever I get a "new" vehicle,I always have a "dry run" on the driveway,just to see how effective the supplied wheel brace and jack are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hobby's brochures make it clear which of their motorhome designs are supplied with a spare-wheel and which aren't. I don't know if Ford has supplied Hobby with spare-wheel-equipped Transit chassis and those wheels have been subsequently removed at the Hobby factory, but it would be odd if that were so. (I can't say I trust eTIS in this instance.) The logical give-away will surely be whether there's any sign that a spare-wheel raising/lowering mechanism has been (or is) fitted to the chassis. No evidence of any raising/lowering mechanism would be a very strong indicator that the chassis left the Ford factory with no spare-wheel. The normal Transit jack is a scissors type, but a hydraulic 'bottle' jack is supplied with 4250kg MAM variants. Transits have different chassis jacking-points according to the model, the MAM and FWD or RWD. The rear jacking-points for RWD Transits are beneath the rear axle, while FWD Transits jack at the rear either on the leaf-spring just in front of the rear axle (MAM up to 3-tonne) or on the leaf-spring's rear 'eye' (MAM over 3-tonne). In the last case, Ford's special aluminium casting will need to be fitted beneath the scissors-jack to increase the jack's lifting range. Where motorhomes are concerned, jacking beneath the rear leaf-spring's rear eye is much less "dotty" than on the axle itself - leverage is improved and (more importantly) the wheel that's to be changed naturally begins to drop downwards out of the wheel-arch as the jack lifts the vehicle, rather than being forced upwards into the wheel-arch when an on-axle jacking-point is used. Changing a rear wheel on many Transit-based motorhomes (RWD or FWD) can be very difficult using just the standard jack and some (eg. early Eura Mobil Profila models) are virtually impossible. As I've mentioned previously on the forum, the twin-leaf rear springs on my Hobby have a design of rear 'eye' that stops the eye being used as a jacking-point. Hobby's rear wheel-arch styling partially shrouds the top of the wheel, making jacking beneath the rear axle impracticable. (Transit Mk-7-based Hobbys have a revised rear wheel-arche design with no 'shrouding'.) Consequently, I jack on the leaf-spring close to its FRONT eye if I want (need) to take a rear-wheel off. I've done this a number of times now using the standard Ford-supplied scissors-jack, and (in one instance) with the motorhome fully loaded. I wouldn't recommend the technique, but it does work and the standard jack (well lubricated!) has proven able to cope. (NB. It may well be that some of the above won't apply to Transit-based motorhomes using Ford's recently-introduced FWD 'ladder' chassis, though I'd expect jacking on such vehicles to still be via the rear leaf-springs rather than on the axle itself.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I have a Mk 6 (2001-2006) Transit Van based Hymer. In 2009 I had a total tyre failure of my offside rear tyre on a busy section of the M6 adjcent to an intersection. No question of trying to change the wheel myself on safety grounds and indeed the operation proved less than straightforward and less than totally safe for the rescue company (Green Flag). The operator used a large wedge to drive the vehicle onto, to raise the back axle, (levelling block(s) could do this), then raised it with a small trolley jack and finally a big one. I carry a 5 ton bottle jack fairly inexpensive and not too heavy. As to jacking points my Van came with generic Hymer and Ford Handbooks neither of which confidently informed the best jacking points. I asked my local Ford dealing at the time of service to show me the best place to jack up. He showed me these from underneath in the inspection pit, the one at the rear being directly under the axle beam and NOT as shown in the manual. Personally I would not travel without a full spare wheel but I appreciate that so owners may not have that option. In summary my suggestions are :- 1. Carry a good capacity bottle jack. 2. Carry a full spare wheel if you are able to and keep it clean and fully inflated . 3. Join a rescue organisation 4. Ask your vehicle dealer to show you the jacking points in the workshop and identify them clearly in your mind. 5. Don't risk jacking the vehicle yourself if this can be avoided by calling out your rescue service. Even with the greatest care there is a risk of injury and/or damage to your vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-01-17 9:09 AM .......... I don't know if Ford has supplied Hobby with spare-wheel-equipped Transit chassis and those wheels have been subsequently removed at the Hobby factory, but it would be odd if that were so. (I can't say I trust eTIS in this instance.) Only if Hobby want a factory full of unwanted spare wheels, methinks! :-DMore seriously, this discussion demonstrates the difficulty of trying to answer questions such as the OP poses. Apologies to Derek for butchering his comprehensive answer for the purposes of illustration.The logical give-away will surely be whether there's any sign that a spare-wheel raising/lowering mechanism has been (or is) fitted to the chassis. ..........Indeed. Our Van, which is on the platform cab Transit base, has no spare wheel mounting mechanism.The normal Transit jack is a scissors type, but a hydraulic 'bottle' jack is supplied with 4250kg MAM variants. Transits have different chassis jacking-points according to the model, the MAM and FWD or RWD. The rear jacking-points for RWD Transits are beneath the rear axle, while FWD Transits jack at the rear either on the leaf-spring just in front of the rear axle (MAM up to 3-tonne) or on the leaf-spring's rear 'eye' (MAM over 3-tonne). In the last case, Ford's special aluminium casting will need to be fitted beneath the scissors-jack to increase the jack's lifting range. Where motorhomes are concerned, jacking beneath the rear leaf-spring's rear eye is much less "dotty" than on the axle itself - leverage is improved and (more importantly) the wheel that's to be changed naturally begins to drop downwards out of the wheel-arch as the jack lifts the vehicle, rather than being forced upwards into the wheel-arch when an on-axle jacking-point is used. Except, that in the case of our Van, the scissor jack cannot be located under the rear spring leaf eye, because the waste water drain pipe/valve obstruct access when the jack is on the lifting block. That is to say, the jack has to be pretty well fully folded to locate beneath the spring eye with a deflated tyre and the wheel rim sitting on the deck. If the block is omitted and the jack part extended, it can just get on the eye, but the wheel cannot then be so lifted to allow location of a spare with a fully inflated tyre onto the studs. Puzzle, eh? :-) And no, you can't rotate the jack 90o, because the cup in the jack head is then misaligned 90o against the curve of the spring eye it is designed to receive! Very dodgy! So; use beneath axle instead? Jack needs to be folded flat to fit beneath axle, and it's leverage is so reduced in that mode that the force required to turn the jack handle defies my abilities. There is also that little matter of the cup in the jack head being at 90o to the curve of the axle. So, near impossible and dodgy!! Front spring eye then, as Derek does. Well, in that position, with the approx 50% rear overhang of the Van, the jacking point would be very close to the Van's centre of gravity, meaning the jack would be lifting the front axle as well as the rear axle. My judgement is that the total lift would be rather more that the designated 1.5 tonne capacity (oh yer?) of the jack, and possibly more than that spring shackle had ever been designed to accommodate. Do I want to carry out roadside destruction testing on "our Henry's" folding jack? ER, no! Interesting little puzzle, innit? It is also perhaps a good insight into why Hobby just supplied the can of goo and a pump in the first place. Go figure! Ah, hydraulic bottle jack! :-)................. Hobby's rear wheel-arch styling partially shrouds the top of the wheel, making jacking beneath the rear axle impracticable. (Transit Mk-7-based Hobbys have a revised rear wheel-arch design with no 'shrouding'.) Consequently, I jack on the leaf-spring close to its FRONT eye if I want (need) to take a rear-wheel off. ............ So there you have it. Two Hobby motorhomes of slightly differing vintage, and slightly differing designs, but both of the same MAM and general size, and both based on Ford Transit bases (albeit Mk 6 in one case and Mk 7 in the other), both of which require quite different strategies to the simple? task of jacking them up, neither of which can be jacked as Ford foresaw. I can (and have) jack ours with the bottle jack from beneath the axle (but probably could not do so with the rim right on the deck) - which as Derek correctly says does not shove the wheel up behind the wing shroud - or from the designated jacking point. Derek can (just?) get away with the Ford designed and supplied scissor jack, but not from the designated jacking point. All because someone want to know which jack to use on his van. If only it could be that simple!! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-01-17 1:59 PM Derek Uzzell - 2011-01-17 9:09 AM .......... I don't know if Ford has supplied Hobby with spare-wheel-equipped Transit chassis and those wheels have been subsequently removed at the Hobby factory, but it would be odd if that were so. (I can't say I trust eTIS in this instance.) Only if Hobby want a factory full of unwanted spare wheels, methinks! :-DI suspect we won't know unless someone undertakes a factory visit. Maybe they order every fifth base without any wheels. :-D In all seriousness though, whilst it may seem odd, Etis is supposed to be fed from production line data; I researched 2 different Hobby vans by VIN before buying, and both were flagged as "With Steel Spare Wheel", "Less Tyre Repair Service Kit". The Siesta Exclusive most recently tested by MMM also had a similar comment in the text - so it is not a one-off mistake.In addition, the "goo" kit I have does not appear to be the standard Ford item, but a German make who coincidentally show Hobby as a "partner" on their website. (along with a number of other German motorhome manufacturers).Whilst it may seem odd for Hobby to order this way, all the circumstantial evidence points to the vehicles being built by Ford with a spare wheel (if not physically shipped to Hobby this way). It may be that Ford can offer this to Hobby more cheaply as it is the more standard production run.So....there may be a nice cheap source of Transit spare wheels and tyres somewhere in Germany :-DExcept, that in the case of our Van, the scissor jack cannot be located under the rear spring leaf eye, because the waste water drain pipe/valve obstruct access when the jack is on the lifting block. Thanks for that! I haven't tried this 'van out yet, and whilst mine is somewhat different to yours, it may well be a similar case - time for a pre-emptive attempt I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 HymerVan - 2011-01-17 10:05 AM ...As to jacking points my Van came with generic Hymer and Ford Handbooks neither of which confidently informed the best jacking points. I asked my local Ford dealing at the time of service to show me the best place to jack up. He showed me these from underneath in the inspection pit, the one at the rear being directly under the axle beam and NOT as shown in the manual... All coachbuilt motorhomes based on the Transit Mk 6 use a platform-cab chassis. This chassis is essentially a modified Transit panel-van shorn of its roof, rear doors and body-sides aft of the cab. The Transit Mk 6 handbook clearly indicates where the rear jacking-points are located, and it's plain that only RWD models should be jacked beneath the rear axle. The 'head' of the Ford-supplied jack is specifically designed to locate on to the axle-tube of RWD Transits, or, on FWD Transits, on to either the leaf-spring's rear eye or on to the leaf-spring itself. Certainly, if one used a non-Ford jack, then jacking on the axle of a FWD Transit might well be practicable, but that's not what Ford advise and - in my Hobby's case - it wouldn't be effective as I wouldn't then be able to withdraw the wheel from the wheel-arch. As Brian highlights, even if the jacking task were theoretically possible when a chassis was 'bare', that might not still be true once the motorhome manufacturer has added the bodywork. In my Hobby's case, even though the vehicle can be lifted via the standard Ford jack, it's not possible (due to the Hobby-added bodywork) to lower/raise the spare-wheel using the Ford-supplied tool. (Incidentally, I note your "total tyre failure" comment. Was the cause ever established, please, as Transit Mk 6s have a notorious - and well-earned - reputation for tyre-valve failure that often results in the tyre itself being destroyed?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Well now I am confused. I'll have a look at my Aldi trolley jack, take that along and hope I dont have to use it. Thank you all for your comments. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I would suggest you need a jacking capacity in the region of 2.5 tonnes, possibly more if the MAM exceeds 3,500Kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 In response to Derek's comment about my "total tyre failure" this was the subject of earlier posts in 2009. The tyre deflated very rapidly when I was overtaking a truck in the centre lane of the motorway (at precisely 70mph of course) . It was a sticky moment but I did not lose control of the steering and was able to pull over onto the hard shoulder. The concensus was that ity was almost certainly a valve failure and I have replaced all the valves with steel valves now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thanks for the reply. I notice that I commented back in 2009, though I still don't remember doing so! I suspect that a good few Transit Mk 6-related 'tyre failures' are actually valve failures that result in a tyre being damaged beyond repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I learnt on a a police accident investigation course that at least on motorways the least likely tyre to be punctured is the OSF followed by the NSF then OSR and most likely the NSR. The reasons belived to be that gravity takes debris down the camber to the neaside. The front tyres run over and flick the item (particularly nails so they are standing up as the rears go over them achieving penetration. On this basis practice changing the NSR wheel somewhere safe but to add realism do it after dark while someone plays a hose over you. Of course do the usual risk assesment and take all appropriate H & S precautions. PS My last puncture in the 'van was the OSR in the middle of the mile long M5 River Exe bridge. I asked for and got a Police patrol car ( its the way you ask) to cone off the lane while I changed the wheel very smartish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 When I had my tyre failure I wondered if the operative had parked his (small) truck far enough away (perhaps a couple of vehicle lengths) from my own vehicle to offer himself protection from passing vehicles. When I googled the company to get their contact details for a "thank you" e-mail I discovered that they had had a operative killed on the motorway in the preceding year so yes it is a dangerous place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 We have a nice red 6 tonne bottle jack which we keep in our camper as we didn't get one, nor a spare wheel, but have now rectified that omissions too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Statistically the most dangerous place on a motorway is the hard shoulder as the potential speed differential is greatest. I blame Isacc Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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