Parasitic Electical drain problem.

[laimeduck]

Benimar Perseo 710CCX, 2005

 

Can anyone recommend either a static or mobile service engineer in the South Ox, West Berks area, with specific regard to Electrics?

 

I am still having electrical problem with my Benimar - I suspect there is a parasitic drain somewhere, but I can't find it. I have had the leisure batteries checked (one replaced), I have located & checked the split charge relay (actually an E772 Automatic charging relay) which seems OK, and I have removed a redundant electrical waste water valve opening mechanism which I thought was the problem.

 

However even after a full charge, the batteries still loose a fair amount of their charge within a few hours, even with everything switched off. The problem is that the motor battery also loses charge, & there is no switch to isolate this battery

 

I have no electric diagram for the Benimar, and short of checking every relay (if I could find them!) and fuse, am now at a loss.

 

(When hooked up the on board charger cuts in when the leisure batteries hit about 70-75% (12.5V))

 

Thanks

Jeremy

 

 

 

[Clive]

Webbs Motorhomes at Woolhampton near Aldermaston have a good workshop. Any good?

 

or

Cara-Medics Oxon/Bucks (Mobile Engineer), Grounds Farm, Water Stratford

or

Premier Motorhomes OXFORDSHIRE, OX17 2QY BANBURY,

 

C.

 

[747]

Go to Maplin and buy an Auto digital current tester (£9.99). Stock number N48CY.

 

Remove a fuse, plug in the current tester and put the fuse you have removed into the side of the tester. It will give you a digital readout of any current flowing. It will be a bit laborious but you will get to the bottom of it.

 

You will need the 'maxi' size unless you have the tiny fuses fitted (which I doubt).

[Brian Kirby]

However, as both leisure and starter batteries are losing charge, I do question that split charge relay.  It doesn't help answer where the discharge is, but it seems very odd both are falling if they are separated, as they should be (engine not running), via that relay. 

Have you made sure the fridge is fully off, and not set to "auto" if an AES model, or to 12V if an MES model (or just tried pulling its 12V fuse)? 

Other than battery charging, it is (should be!) the only thing that can take power from the alternator/starter battery when the engine is running.  If the split charger has failed closed (not unknown), it will bridge the leisure and starter batteries and, if the fridge is still looking for 12V, it will be getting it via that relay.  It will be an 8-10A load, so would soon begin discharging the batteries as you describe.

[laimeduck]

Thanks chaps

The fridge is always turned off, as is the water pump. Even if I turn the main panel off there is still a drain. I will try the Maplin fuse checker.

The Benimar does not have a standard split charge relay - It has a Spanish made unit called an Automatic Charging Relay E772 .

 

A circuit diagram is on this link:- http://www.roulot.es/downloads/E_772rele.pdf

 

The details (in spanish) are on this link:-

 

http://www.roulot.es/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=968&category_id=107&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=102

 

The connections are different to standard relays and I'm not exactly sure how I can check the relay with a multimeter (I can check standard relays)- (There is no terminal 30 supply?)

 

Looks like a long weekend checking fuses!

Jeremy

[Brian Kirby]

The E772 relay merely controls charge to the leisure battery, switching on when the alternator voltage rises above 13.4V, and off when it falls below 12.6V. 

It does not control 12V to the fridge, which will be supplied via another relay that switches on when the engine/alternator are running and off when they are stopped.

It seems possible the E772 has failed closed, because both batteries are being depleted.  If not, there must be another supply that is connected to both batteries.  For example, is there an inverter that has been left on, perhaps for cabin air conditioning?

Have you tried pulling and replacing fuses one by one?  With the rate of discharge you imply, you should see sparks when you get to the "guilty" circuit.  Look also for supplementary line fuses, or any wiring that by-passes the main fuseboard.

[Brambles]

Jeremy, why did you only replace one battery. Presumany teh other is qyite old and I suspect it has also now failed. It is normal to keep paired up batteries within a years age of each other and of the same type. If you went for teh onr from cosco teh chances are yioy have a Full calkciumn battey in parallel with a calcium/Antinony. What thius means is the old battey is doing most of teh work and may well now have failed as well, and is pulling down the other battrey and engine battery.

So disconnect the older battery and see what happens.

 

Now to the the engine battery discharging. It sounds like yoru charge relay has short circuits, possibly the relay contacts welding together. Easy enough checked with your multimeter. Or you could jst doconnect both leisure battries and see if habitation electrics are working of teh engine battery. However I woudlk be a bit suroise if this is teh case as when yoiu start the engine it would draw heavy current from leisure batteries and blow a fuse.

 

You mentione din earlier threads about 'Battery Manager'. Is tghis omethig which is fitted on the vehicle or something you were just thinking of lookin into. If thete is one, it may be the source of the problem and may have a fault.

 

There is also the possibility of course there is some other link between the engine and liesure batteries but the above is all a good place to start investigating. Check the old battery you retained - its my number one suspect for the mystery drain. Also look for wiring modifications and extra cable added from the leisure batteries. This may have been added by a previous owner to keep the cab radio alive and from timing out and switching off. They may have messsed it up and not done properly.

Good Luck.

 

 

[RhinoInstalls]

I have known in the past that the benimar control box to drain the leisure and engine batteries.

 

Phil

[laimeduck]

Thanks everyone for your answers & questions.

 

I will get out the multimeter & start testing at the weekend. One problem I will have is that I do not know where all the fuses & relays are located. The Ducato base, lists 2 dash locations & one in the engine compartment, which is OK. I am aware that the automatic charging relay is under the passenger seat, but otherwise I have no idea where others may be. They are not obvious! Would the fridge relay be behind the fridge?

 

The fuses are the small type so I have ordered the relevant Maplin Auto Current tester Mini.

 

Brian & Brambles & 747 - In answer to some of your suggestions-

 

I had both leisure batteries tested, one was duff, the other OK hence I only replaced the one. Original ones were Fuller Power Station Type 6110 110Ah.

As far as I can see there is no supplementary wiring installed, we do not have an inverter. Also I was only enquiring about a battery manager, we do not have one.

 

RhinoInstalls - I would be intested to know what you did to stop the Benimar control box problem you mention.

 

Overall thanks all for your input so far - I have no doubt I will have further questions!!

 

Jeremy

[Brambles]

I still maintain you need to disconnect your old battery and it is suspect and needs testing again.

[laimeduck]

Brambles - absolutely - this is the first thing I will do - maybe tonight!

Thanks, Jeremy

[RhinoInstalls]

Hi Jeremy

 

Can't remember exactly, but am sure it was some rewiring in the box and adding a new relay.

 

Phil

[onecal]

Check your control box and relays, Is there a tow bar fitted ? This wiring may as in many Bini's cause a lot of trouble,

Regards,

Brendan

[laimeduck]

A quick update before the weekend fuse & relay checking marathon.

 

I disconnected the original leisure battery, leaving only the new one. Drain still present! Also found the control board not reading correctly - When it indicates that the Leisure battery is ~70% or 12.3 volts, a multimeter says the battery is 12.7 volts?

 

On another forum found another Benimar owner with a Europe 6000 with very similar problems. He now disconnects his motor battery everytime he stops.

 

I now have so many variables that I'm getting confused - nothing new there then!

 

Jeremy

 

[Brian Kirby]

Did he say if disconnecting the starter battery also prevents the drain on the habitation battery?

When the engine is turned off, there should not be a connection between starter, and habitation, batteries.  This is done to prevent the starter battery accidentaly becoming flattened habitation uses.  In you case, as both batteries drain, it seems that separation has failed, and that failure lies at the root of your problems. 

For both batteries to be discharging at the rate you describe, which seems vary fast, there must be a relatively heavy load that both batteries can "see". 

Rather than disconnecting the starter battery, have you tried disconnecting the E772 relay, preferably on the side connected to the starter battery (don't forget to make sure the connection on the end of lead is well insulated when you do this, it will be live from the starter battery!), to see whether either battery then "sees" a load?  If either does, you will know which side the fault is on, i.e vehicle side, or habitation side.  (I did once hear of a failure of a dynamo regulator that resulted in the starter battery trying to use the dynamo as an electric motor, but I don't think that type of failure is possible with alternators and their regulators.)  If there is then no discharge on either battery, I think it will be the E772 that is faulty.

With the starter battery disconnected at the E772, if the habitation batty is still losing charge, you can then begin hunting down the load by pulling the habitation fuses one by one, as above, until you kill the drain, and then working along that circuit to identify its source.  Switch everything 12V off, put your multimeter into the 12V range, and gently push its probes into the fuse blade connections to make contact.  If the circuit is "live" you will see voltage indicated, if it is dead, as it should be, you see 0 volts.

Final thought.  Does the van have an electric step?  They often have an interface with the alternator, to ensure they retract when the engine is started.  If the step hasn't fully retracted, or that relay has failed, might that be the source of the drain?  However, just pulling the fuses will also identify that potential cause.

[laimeduck]

Brian thanks

 

a)There is no electric step.

b) Other owner disconnected starter battery, simply as safeguard so he could start vehicle. Don't know if it prevented habitation drain.

 

I had come to the same conclusion ref the E772.

 

Tomorrow I will -

- Disconnect the +ve from motor battery, & put the Multimeter between the +ve terminal & the cable & measure for current drain. I am told it should read 10 -90 mA. Anything over about 90mA indicates a drain (Opening the door so the courtesy light goes on will give about .9Amps).

 

- then disconnect motor battery -ve

 

- Then I will remove the E772 & bench test it.

 

- Then as you suggest I will reconnect all except starter battery -ve , then remove Starter battery supply from E772, then reconnect battery -ve (for safety!) & measure E772 with multimeter.

 

-Then I'll check the habitation fuses (There are only 5 of them?)

1= On board charger

2,3,4= 12 volt accessory supply plugs

5= Electic waste water tap (which I have removed as it was redundant)

 

-Then I'll work my way through every other fuse & relay I can find!

 

Then I'll look for a brick wall!

 

Jeremy

PS I have just got the Maplin Auto current tester suggested by "747" which should make life a little easier.

 

 

 

[Brambles]

Not got time to give a longer reply, but you are along the right lines -- however disconnect the negative and measure current from battery, not the positive. It will make no difference to current measured and is safer and easier to get to.

 

edit - When you close door to put interior light off and check current, if you wait 15 mins or so it will fall even further as other vehicle sytems go to sleep.

[laimeduck]

An update:

I have tested E772 relay which seems OK.

With everything off I get a current draw of about 200mA off the motor battery which seems somewhat high, but I have a problem in that the Strikeback T security system kicks in when I put the Multimeter between -ve lead & -ve motor battery. Alarms lights the lot! (And yes I have turned it off!)

 

There must be a habitation fuse/relay box somewhere that I have not found - for the fridge etc.

Europe 7000CCX

The instruction manual I have (which is for a Benimar Europe 7000CCX) sates that there is a fuse box under the drivers seat.

 

There are no fuse boxes under either seat!

I have e-mailed Benimar for enlightenment.

 

I do wonder now if I really do have a battery drain as if I measure the batteries with a multimeter they read 12.7V, if I read the panel display it says 12.3V!

 

I will now bench charge all batteries for 48 hrs to full charge, then leave the van unhooked up for a week with every thing off & see what readings I get on the multimeter.

 

Now - where is that brick wall?

 

Jeremy