Fuel price now getting silly £1.36 per litre

[Mel B]

Petrol here at Tescos £1.269 per litre, diesel £1.309 per litre. :-S

[flicka]

BGD - 2011-02-01 12:18 PM

euroserv - 2011-02-01 12:14 PM Hello, By no means wanting to tread on Flicka's toes but a common explanation for the closing of the price gap between petrol and diesel, and it's now higher price is that stocks of oil that would have been used for petrol are now being used for diesel because of the increased demand for the heavier fuel worlwide. That's ok, but does it mean that the diesel we now get is 'thinner' and/or better quality? If so, is this helping the manufacturers to clean up emissions and meet Euro5 or not? Nick

BGD Nope. Spec is the same as ever. But heavy crude can't be refined into diesel or petrol - it goes to make plastics mainly. It is only light crude that can be converted into these two fuel types.

Diesel spec has constantly changed regarding the permitted Sulphur ppm. In the 90's spec was <500ppm. that has now progressively reduced to <10ppm. This is the reason Refineries have had to invest huge amounts in Sulphur extraction.

The cost of Diesel is greatly affected by the US, especially in winter, in it's Gas Oil form (Contractor's Plant & Tractor fuel  - lower tax & dyed) is used as Light Heating Oil. US refineries have consistantly failed to meet their winter demand levels, (& sometimes in summers) so the global market rises as they increase their imports.

With this Winter experienced across the whole Northern Hemisphere, US demand has gone through the roof.

To modify BDG's comment - Heavy Crude Oils (generally have high Sulphur content) can be refined into any fuel grade, but produce more % "heavy end" products, i.e Heavy Fuel Oils (or Shipping) Heating Oil & less % "light end" i.e. White spirits & LPG's. The major difference is Heavy Crude Oil is a) more expensive to refine. b) sulphur is aggressive & corrosive, resulting in higher maintenance costs for the refiner.

Also all grades can be produced from the Canadian Oil Shales, but again at a cost.

If the world was reliant on light/sweet Crudes to produce Road Fuels (Diesel/Petrol/LPG) I suspect it would already be rationed, even if affordable.

This is why Brent Crude (North Sea) ALWAYS commands a premium on the world market. It is a "sweet" Crude with lower Sulphur content & the UK Refineries built in the 60's/70's were designed to refine this. The more demand for light-end market products increases that premium. Hence the current all time high differential between WTI & Brent.

[David Dwight]

Diesel in Brighton at the weekend £129.9 ltr Down the road from us at Total Garage £131.9 ltr, Tesco a mile away £133.9 ltr.

 

I have got 90ltr in the Tank at £124.9 ltr which will get us well down into Spain. Then cheaper in Spain and cheaper still in Morocco.

 

David

 

 

 

 

[flicka]

Wouldn't allow me to edit.

Just checked my figures

1990's Sulphur content <1000ppm

2000 reduced to 500ppm = EURO 2 engines

2005 reduced to 50ppm = EURO 3 engines

2008 reduced to 10ppm = EURO 4 engines

Reduction to 0ppm to be introduced (2012 ?) = EURO 5 engines

[Guest pelmetman]

Call me dumb John, it seems like the new cleaner engines we are expected to pay for are a waiste of money as the fuel seems to be allready cleaned 8-)

[flicka]

ALAN G - 2011-01-28 3:42 PM The original comment related to whether we can still afford to go Motorcaravanning. Since I started in 1972 my financial requirements have changed radically. I no longer have a mortgage or children to support but hearing and dental care is getting more expensive, the latter I discovered this morning when I agreed to have a cap on a tooth that broke yesterday. So I decided to see how the fuel costs for my Motorcaravanning had changed over the years. In 1972 my Mk1 Transit Canterbury Savannah acheived 20.8 MPG with fuel costing 33 pence per Gallon. That is 7.25 pence per litre. From the Office of National Statistics the inflation proofed price would be 24.4 pence per litre. At 133 pence it's 5 and 3/4 times greater.. :-( However, my Peugeot diesel travels quite happily at 27 MPG so it will cost less.. but not significantly. I still need to find about 23 pence per mile to get to the next campsite. B-). May be it will be cheap enough to stay for a few days walking. Perhaps I will still be able to afford that. (lol)

Hi Alan

Your figures intrigued me, so I did a bit of analysis.

The omission is the effect of US$ v UK£ exhange rate.

Year	Crude Oil	$/£ exchange	Crude Oil £
1972	$18.00	2.51	£7.17

2011

$85.00

1.59

£53.46

So Crude increase US$ = 472%, but corrected to UK£ = 745%

Costs ex refinery have not changed in % terms, despite continual huge investments to meet legislative changes reducing the Sulphur ppm.

Worse

1972 Pump price 0.0725ppl

2011 Pump price 1.339ppl

A staggering 1874% increase.

I daren't post full findings, big brother in Government may be monitoring the forum.

Who to balme (IMO) ?

EU for the introduction of the greatly reduced permitted ppm Sulphur.

Successive UK Governments for failing to maintain strength of UK£.

[flicka]

pelmetman - 2011-02-01 9:09 PM Call me dumb John, it seems like the new cleaner engines we are expected to pay for are a waiste of money as the fuel seems to be allready cleaned 8-)

Not dumb at all, Dave.

The 1990's & earlier, level of Sulphur acted as a lubricating element.

As Sulphur levels deminished, lubrication had to be provided by additives.

The current EURO 4 (Sevel/Ford) & EURO 5 (Merc/VW/Renault) engines are designed to operate with these additives. Older engines will tolerate the additives but lose some efficiency. (over and above the general efficiency reduction through use)

Motorhomes apart, diesel engines were fitted to what were regarded as (by the EU) short life commercial vehicles, i.e. heavy use over only a few years.

BTW, I guess your Transit has a Petrol engine, so you had the trauma, back when many people changed to harder Valve Seats to compensate for reduced sulphur lubrication in Petrol ?

[Guest pelmetman]

Its a 2.5 diesel John.........So much power I can tow the skin of a rice pudding (lol)............but in first gear its will get me anywhere.......slowly :D

 

As an aside I do seem to have a lot of black gunk out the exhaust when I first start it, more than I used to get.....is this the fuel (?)

[Mel B]

If you think it's bad what we pay at the pumps, it's even worse if you let someone else fill it for you ... when we hire cars for staff at work they always come with a full tank, if the user doesn't fill the tank back up after they'd used it, it costs us £1.50+VAT per litre for the company to do it for us ... that's £1.80 a litre!!!! 8-)

[flicka]

Some points I omitted from my analysis above.

 

Comparing fuel costs from 1990 v 2010 (latest figures published by the industry)

 

UK RPI = 176%

 

Crude price increase ($) = 258%

Crude price increse (£ adjusted) = 336%

 

Diesel (Retail ) £ = 314%

Diesel (to Pump) £ = 224%

(excluding Fuel Tax & VAT, includes refining costs, distribution & service station cost/profit)

 

So effectively despite Pump prices being marginally less that the inflation rate of (£ adjusted) Crude Oil for the period & massive investments in the Refining Industry to achieve the EU regulation reductios in sulphur content, their output prices are substantially less in real terms.

 

 

 

 

[747]

In the 1980's, I helped commission Sasol 2 and 3 in South Africa. The oil was made from gasified Coal. It was a low grade coal, little better than shale but it was fine for the process.

 

We are sitting on millions of tons of coal that might be very useful shortly (if we can use it for cars, as in South Africa). If the price of crude oil is going to remain at such a high level, the Tories might regret shutting down the Mining industry.

8-)

[bobalobs]

The invoice for a new car delivered to me in May 1969 shows 4 gallons of 4 star costing a total of £1 6s 6d. A litre of fuel today cost me 133 pence . The older amongst us will spot the coincidence!!

[flicka]

747 - 2011-02-03 3:47 PM

 

In the 1980's, I helped commission Sasol 2 and 3 in South Africa. The oil was made from gasified Coal. It was a low grade coal, little better than shale but it was fine for the process.

 

8-)

 

Hi 747

As I recall those SA Coal mines broke through the water table

The company I worked for at that time produced some big mobile Refrigeration Units for that Mining project.

The Refrigeration Units were for freezing the Mine tunnels.

They were mounted on WW2 Aircraft Transporter Trailers. Just hooked them up to an Artic Tractor for transit. Interesting Project. :-)

[Rayjsj]

So, with Fuel being 'chemically' altered to suit 'New' diesel engines (euro 4 and 5) what will be the effect, if any on older Diesel engines (in motorhomes) that are expected to last upto 20 years or so. AND what do we have to do to protect our engines from this potentially damaging fuel. Are there 'Sulphur' additives we can put in ? The problem wont 'Go away' as in these 'financially strained' times we will be keeping our motorhomes running longer and longer. Ray *-)

[747]

Rayjsj - 2011-02-05 3:50 PM

 

So, with Fuel being 'chemically' altered to suit 'New' diesel engines (euro 4 and 5) what will be the effect, if any on older Diesel engines (in motorhomes) that are expected to last upto 20 years or so. AND what do we have to do to protect our engines from this potentially damaging fuel. Are there 'Sulphur' additives we can put in ? The problem wont 'Go away' as in these 'financially strained' times we will be keeping our motorhomes running longer and longer. Ray *-)

 

Hi Ray,

 

Buy some cheap 2 stroke engine oil (not fully synthetic) and add 1/3 of a litre to 70 litres of diesel.

It lubricates the injector pump and anything else in the fuel line. It is said to make the engine run smoother as well (less diesel knock). I have the oil but have not used it yet. It is apparently used by quite a lot of people. The idea originally came from Germany and as that part of the world invented the diesel engine and various other auto ideas, I believe them. :D

 

Vorsprung Durch Whatisname. 8-)

[twooks]

doh :$ :$ :$

[twooks]

ditto :$ :$

[twooks]

140.9 pence today at A1 services

 

good eh

 

doesn't help when I can remember buying ICI petrol from the site gates at 5/6 aka now as 27½ pence

 

for a gallon :-> >:-(

 

that's err - 6p per litre

[nowtelse2do]

747 - 2011-02-05 3:57 PM

Rayjsj - 2011-02-05 3:50 PM So, with Fuel being 'chemically' altered to suit 'New' diesel engines (euro 4 and 5) what will be the effect, if any on older Diesel engines (in motorhomes) that are expected to last upto 20 years or so. AND what do we have to do to protect our engines from this potentially damaging fuel. Are there 'Sulphur' additives we can put in ? The problem wont 'Go away' as in these 'financially strained' times we will be keeping our motorhomes running longer and longer. Ray *-)

Hi Ray, Buy some cheap 2 stroke engine oil (not fully synthetic) and add 1/3 of a litre to 70 litres of diesel. It lubricates the injector pump and anything else in the fuel line. It is said to make the engine run smoother as well (less diesel knock). I have the oil but have not used it yet. It is apparently used by quite a lot of people. The idea originally came from Germany and as that part of the world invented the diesel engine and various other auto ideas, I believe them. :D Vorsprung Durch Whatisname. 8-)

On the Ford Transit forum a member who is a mechanic says that it is OK to use semi synthetic 2stroke oil for the older Transit diesel engines but 'NOT' to use in the petrol engined ones and especially the Pinto engine.

He says (what 747 says) that it lubricates the pump, camshaft and pistons and recommends 300 to 400mm per tank full, so that depends on the size of the tank I assume, and also if you could afford a tankful. 8-)

Dave

[nowtelse2do]

Double post.

Dave

[LordThornber]

twooks - 2011-02-05 6:28 PM

 

140.9 pence today at A1 services

 

 

That's outrageous. best priced diesel locally 129.9

 

Martyn

[ekka]

We are always ahead of the game here, today £1.42.9 and has been now a couple of days since I first posted.

[Rayjsj]

747,

Thanks for that info, i did wonder about that solution, but being 'new' to relatively modern diesel engines (since 1988) and the altering of diesel fuel, I wasn't sure. Any idea why not semi-synthetic ? just a thought.

And will long term use damage the 'cat' (if it hasn't already been 'nicked') don't even know if a 2005 van (2.2 peugeot boxer) has got one ? I personally don't believe all this 'Global warming' claptrap and am not worried about 'Emission's' just as long as it gets through it's MOT once a year. (even if that means a bit of 'preparation').

Would 'Castrol R' do ?? (i miss the 'heady smell' of burning racing vegetable oil) only I still have and old can in 'the shed'. ;-) Ray.

 

I am so 'pixxed off' with the way the country is going financially That if i had a 'Ready' supply of 'Red' diesel i would use that too.

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2011-02-06 12:05 PM 747, Thanks for that info, i did wonder about that solution, but being 'new' to relatively modern diesel engines (since 1988) and the altering of diesel fuel, I wasn't sure. Any idea why not semi-synthetic ? just a thought. And will long term use damage the 'cat' (if it hasn't already been 'nicked') don't even know if a 2005 van (2.2 peugeot boxer) has got one ? I personally don't believe all this 'Global warming' claptrap and am not worried about 'Emission's' just as long as it gets through it's MOT once a year. (even if that means a bit of 'preparation'). Would 'Castrol R' do ?? (i miss the 'heady smell' of burning racing vegetable oil) only I still have and old can in 'the shed'. ;-) Ray. I am so 'pixxed off' with the way the country is going financially That if i had a 'Ready' supply of 'Red' diesel i would use that too.

Ray, this suggestion is for "older" diesels, which I suspect means the non common-rail, mechanically injected, variety.  There won't be any of them sporting cats, nicked or otherwise.

[747]

Brian is correct Ray. If you have a cat then forget it. Mine is 52 reg and has no catalytic converter. It is a Fiat 2.8 JTD common rail engine but is suitable for the 2 stroke oil.

 

If it was a bit older, I would be running on veggie oil. My next door neighbour has a Chinese takeaway as well. >:-(

 

2 stroke oil is meant to be mixed with petrol (not diesel) at (about) a ratio of 1:40. As it is only added to a diesel for extra lubrication, then cheap stuff is the best. I have only noticed semi-synthetic and fully-synthetic oil on the shelf in motoring accessory outlets. It seems a waste of money to buy the top quality stuff. If anyone knows different, I would be pleased to hear about it. :-D