CliveH Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I see many roofs fitted with solar panels and most are where you rent your roof space for 25 years to a company that puts up solar panels, gives you free electricity and the excess generated they sell back to the grid at an inflated price due to the EU grants for “green energy”. After the debacle of the Spanish shinning arc lights on their solar panels at night because the green tariff payments meant that more money could be generated than the cost of “normal” fuel used to power the lights, governments have been forced to look at the debacle of paying huge sums via unrealistic grants for “green” energy. Germany and other EU countries have withdrawn or drastically reduced the Feed in Tariffs (FIT’s) such that those went ahead have been left with these solar panels on the roof of their homes – often rented out for years – that are now of little value and are actually reducing the value of their homes. There have been various investment opportunities banded about of which all seemed pretty dubious to me. This came in from one of our techy sources this morning re the withdrawal of one of the Venture Capital Trusts (VCT’s) designed to raise capital for these sorts of projects. Aside from this particular impact, it is also flagged up elsewhere that those poor sods who went ahead with solar panel installation on their roofs – either by outright purchase or by renting their roof space – could end up with one of the biggest “pig in a poke” of all time. Anyone considering doing this or investing in such schemes would do well to hang back and wait and see the outcome. For those who have perhaps already gone ahead – fingers crossed!! ......................................... “We are writing to inform you that, following the statement from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (“DECC”) on Monday 7th February, all aspects of the Feed in Tariff (“FIT”) scheme (including tariff levels, administration and eligibility of technologies) are under review and therefore Matrix and the Boards of the Matrix Clean Energy VCTs (“VCTs”) have decided to withdraw the Offer of their Clean Energy VCTs. The impact of the comprehensive FIT review is being considered by all industry participants, but the view is that the future of the FIT scheme is now uncertain, which is a material risk to investors. In reaching this view, we have attended briefings at DECC and the Renewable Energy Association, and have consulted with others in the industry. We set out below a short summary of the DECC statement and some further comments on its impact:• The FIT schemes under review include: Anaerobic Digestion (greater than 500kW); Hydro (up to 5MW); Micro CHP (less than 2kW); Solar PV (up to 5MW and standalone); and Wind (up to 5MW) • Solar PV projects over 50kW and Anaerobic Digestion projects will undergo a fast track review with changes to be implemented as soon as practicable. We understand this to mean that changes to solar PV FITs could apply from July 2011 • All other FIT schemes to be reviewed by the end of 2011, with changes to take effect from April 2012 (“unless the FIT review reveals a need for greater urgency” as quoted in the DECC statement) “ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I applied to a simular scheme to get " free solar panels " in exchange for the extra power it produced , after giving full details of our property it was deemed unsuitabe because of the location size of roof and light obstruction.Our bungalow has a very large roof faces due south and there are no light obstructions to the property , so it make one wonder where they get their information from it doe's not seem to add up to me. then we had correspondence from the same company wanting to sort out other energy saving devices with me which I totally ignored.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Thanks Clive! I am/was considering both pv cells and solar hot water panels but I too am very wary about anything that appears to be too good to be true - because it invariably is just that - too good to last! So I am holding back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Looks like another free lunch that will give you a bad case of indigestion *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 We enquired and got our quotes and settled for one company where the owner of that company was actually working on the jobs himself. His quote was not the cheapest but I was impressed by the care he took to ensure that he could get the panels onto the roof that he was quoteing for. We were just about to give him the go-ahead Anyway thanks to Clive I too will wait a while to see what transpires. Many thanks for the heads up Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 AFAIW the reviews have been deemed nessasary as the schemes attracting most payment where brought in for householders, but some companies have set up to exploit the scheme and set up comercial gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 My problem with these schemes is that they are not “green” – the panels for electricity generation are not usually made in the UK, they use chemicals and a manufacturing process that create huge amounts of toxic pollutants and are designed to feed power into our national grid. If it were not for the FIT that pays many many times more for a unit of solar energy than one created from a “normal” power station, then the scheme would never get off the ground. And who is the source of the FIT’s????? – well us the taxpayers of course. Is it just me or is the whole thinking barmy? Don’t get me wrong – I am a passionate advocate of renewable energy – but I see it only working on a micro scale. Look at our caravans and motorhomes – I am mightily impressed with what a simple solar panel and battery can do when camping “off grid”. So why do we need a system that fits into “the grid” which is 230V @ 13 amp? – If we were able to buy white goods etc that like computers/mobile phones/TV’s etc can run on 12 V DC then we could all have a small wind turbine and solar panels thereby making our homes independent of the huge power networks. My understanding is that this is a viable possibility and is on its way – but for now the powers that be require us to fit into the “grid” so that things like 20% VAT can be applied to each power invoice we receive. But the way the current scheme works – as dreamt up by the EU – the tariffs given for solar energy are truly crazy! – everyone knew it – but the barmy idiots passed it anyway. 8-) >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The local guy who might supply our PV panels reckons that the FIT will remain as is for about two years and will then 'gradually?' reduce by an unspecified amount over an unspecified number of years until it roughly equates with the cost of buying electricity - which will undoubtedly have risen. He reckons the current review will prevent the 'abuse by unscrupulous abusers of the system' but quite how that will be achieved is not known - well he would say that wouldn't he - he's selling 'em! The big question is can we generate enough power to justify the capital outlay and this has nowt to do with being green and more to do with applying the well established business principals of cost to benefit! This website has a lot of info - most of it useless - but a few real gems! http://www.energy.eu/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Interesting article on what is happening in Germany:- http://www.powergenworldwide.com/index/display/articledisplay/4622417585/articles/power-engineering-international/volume-18/issue-10/regulars/analysis/too-much-to-handle-germanys-solar-power-plan-takes-it-toll.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Interesting article Clive - thanks! The one thing that stood out was the statement that Germany's huge solar network is only 10% efficient and a lot of that is when demand is not at it's peak! Translate that to the UK where we might, or might not, get more strong daylight than Germany and the return on capital invested does not look too promising. 2 x 1 kwp solar panels cost about £12k and they theoretically generate 2kwp x 24 hours x 365 days x 10% efficiency = 1752 kwh p/a which at a cost of about say 10 p per kwh currently means you might save about £175 a year in electric costs but only if you can use every bit that is generated and that seems unlikely! Bear in mind that my £12k is currently earning me about 2.5% net or about £300 a year net and that alone will pay a lot of my annual electric bill? However if you can get 41 p for every unit generated under the FIT then at about £718 a year - or about 6% return on your £12k capital - it starts to make more sense - but not if the FIT is abolished or severly reduced! Apart from which £12k would buy me a very nice boat! Any flaws you can spot in that perspective please Clive ?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Some more info http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Renewable-Heat-Incentive http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme#howitworks It seems that the subsidy is not being paid for by government but by a surcharge by all the supply companys on all our electricity bills which is then handed back to those lucky enough to live in the right property and have enough cash or income to be able to afford PV panels? Doesn't seem very fair to me but seeing as most of the country's benefit system is unfair and I have paid tax all my working life and had no benefit who am I to argue with freebies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hi Tracker - you are spot on with your analysis. And when you lay out the maths as clearly as you have it underlines just how vulnerable the whole pack of cards is to the level of FIT given. My concern is that the panels will require maintenance and if it all goes pear shaped who will do this? Will those that have rented their roof space for 25 years be stuck with a white elephant - and will those that bought their own panels end up regretting their purchase if, as is happening in other EU countries the FIT is scaled back? An option I like is these solar roof tiles from Solar Century - a far better option and we are considering those when we move as we will build en extension to the north, which is the front of the property, and we would take the old tiles of the back to use on the front extension so as not to make it look "new". Then on the south facing roof - I fancy these solar tiles. But if you want to save money my next door neighbour has fitted a heat exchanger - http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Air-source-heat-pumps He has one and even in the very cold weather he was comfy at 20 deg C. It cost him £8000 with a £2000 grant - so £6K overall. You don't know it is there apart from a low humming noise which you can hardly hear - but this means you do need planning permission. We all reckon he has but at least £10K on the value of his home because that house now has no heating bills whatsoever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Oops sorry - forgot the Solar Century link http://www.solarcentury.co.uk/installers-and-roofers/products/solar-tiles/c21e-solar-roof-tiles/ They replace several ordinary tiles but fit the same as the normal tiles. To me this seems so much better than having your roof compromised with large panels being fixed on top of the existing tiles. No idea about costs - but i think a grant is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 We looked at heat exchanger systems but were advised that as we have an oil fired boiler feeding multiple radiators the gain would probably not justify the cost which was a shame because I do like the idea and we have the space! Sodde's law again! I'm not convinced that solar roof tiles are the answer either? At least with pv panels you can take it off, update or replace it without leaving a hole in your roof! Or am I just an old cynic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 I think the benefit of these tiles are that if they fail or no longer become economically viable you can simply leave them as they are - the same could be said of the cells suspended over your roof - but I think I would prefer those that replace existing tiles rather than those that are suspended above the roof. Not sure why - it just seems better???? ......................... What bothers me is :- ....................... Here’s a report from Bloomberg, for example, on the sudden end of the UK solar gold rush: "Britain is moving faster than any other European country to contain a surge in solar power and prevent the boom-and-bust seen in Spain and predicted for the Czech Republic. The risk is scaring off the investors who would create the “green jobs” Prime Minister David Cameron is seeking to revive the economy. “It’s going to completely kill the market,” said Tim German, renewable energy manager for the local government in Cornwall at the U.K.’s southwest tip. “Investors are starting to get cold feet.” Why is this happening? Because the British government has belatedly come to realise what the Spanish government had already discovered months ago: that the renewables industry (being economically worthless in its own right) is only “sustainable” through massive government subsidy known as “feed-in tariffs”. These subsidies are so costly to the Exchequer – and therefore to the taxpayer – that they not only wreak enormous damage on the economy but prove extremely unpopular with voters. When it comes to “saving Mother Gaia” and being able to feed and clothe their kids, people can very suddenly become very pragmatic about the threat of “Man Made Global Warming” and start looking at the evidence in more detail than before. We’ve just seen a example of this in Ireland – which has been playing the green energy scam game more enthusiastically than perhaps any other country in the world – All those EU grants were worth billions of Euros! But their Green party has been utterly destroyed in the recent elections." .............................. All six Green Party seats in the last Irish Parliament have gone. .............................. Does this indicate a return to "common sense" - or does it indicate an abdication of "common sense" such that we do not care what happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 So I read that report and see no mention of one of the reasons why these so called green energy solutions have been promoted. Energy security, at the moment the UK is more reliant on imported energy than it ever has been, solar panels and wind turbines will never be a cure for that, but it all helps, and the more self suficient we are the better, else we'll all be bowing and scraping to Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8LEY Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I think the situation is a bit worse than you calculate Tracker. The panels won't be generating 24hrs/day. We get an average of 12hrs daylight/day in a year. So your saving should be halved. If anyone is looking for a PV designer/installer, I can recommend Solarcentury. They did the CIS building, in Manchester, for us. Have a look at their Businesses tab on their web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 Colin - you are absolutely correct - energy security is one of the advantages - what I keep banging on about is that solar panels produce so little that it is not economically viable to set the things up unless you give a whopping great FIT from the tax payer - and where is the sense in that? BUT - use of solar generated electricity for a new generation of far more fuel efficient white good computers etc and each home could be both energy secure and independent of the grid. We needed 230v and 13 amp decades ago - we do not need it now. NASA has produced technology that we could use in our homes that combined with even low output solar power and batteries would work. Home production would be good in that we could all save the 20% VAT on our fuel bill for a start. and T8LEY - great to see you are in sunny Spain! - how great to see our Spanish friends managing to get panels to generate 24/7 - by way of shinning arc lights at them! (lol) The FIT was so large that they worked out they still made money on selling back to the Government the "green electricity" produced by a panel with an electric light shone on it! How barmy is that? http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/4/13/its-true.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 T8LEY - 2011-02-28 11:39 PM I think the situation is a bit worse than you calculate Tracker. The panels won't be generating 24hrs/day. We get an average of 12hrs daylight/day in a year. So your saving should be halved. . Err no - you misunderstand my calculation! 2kw x 24 hours x 10% efficiency = 4.8 kw per day generated. According to German statistics a 10% efficiency of their PV panel's potential capacity to generate is what they have achieved over the whole country over the whole year so if it's a good enough figure for the Germans it should not be any worse for us - unless we get less daylight or our daylight is the wrong sort of daylight! NPower said they could fit me a 2kw system for a figure quoted yesterday of £8573 which rose overnight to £9295 - hows about that for inflation! Interestingly their projections show the panels at about 9.5% efficient in the UK which is not so far from the German experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 My electric bill is £39 a month and considering we are home 24/7 (except when away in the camper :D ) and that includes my workshop power, so I doubt laying out nearly 10k on solar panels would be worth the money. How about wind power (?) as in a flat calm I could power it myself (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 As I understand it Dave your electric bill will only reduce marginally because you would probably only be able use a small percentage of the power you generate yourself. On the other hand if you are using your own power yourself you can't be exporting it back to the grid and so will 'only' get the 41.3 p per kw generating rate instead of the 44.3 p export FIT rate - so it pays not to use your own power for the next 25 years! Now - if that ain't crazy tell me what is? My gut feeling is that the sums do add up and as long as one has the capital laying around doing nowt except gather dust and 2.5% one may as well go for it? On the other hand if the capital is earning you say 7% or more or you may want to use it for other more worthwhile things - like a new motorhome for example - then one is probably best served by not going for it? Then again if one would need to borrow the money or add the cost to a mortgage - then it is probably not a cost effective scheme and best avoided? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Ah! Capital......I had that once :D.....and even several times.... maybe some left in the old bricks and mortar now, but in general I prefer to live now than stash it away just in case I might survive to old age, and I am happy to keep working until I pop my mortal coil, and my ambition, as if I ever suffered from such an affliction (lol) is to earn sufficient to pay my bills and have a comfortable life :D and so far I seem to be succeeding as I'm quite happy with my lot B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art338 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Having been occupied elsewhere for some weeks I did not realise a solar panel question was already running on here. Apologies for intruding with my input on a seperate thread! art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Not a problem Art - never any need to apologise for starting a new thread when you didn't spot a recent similarity - we all do it from time to time - and it is better to have it twice than not at all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 CliveH - 2011-03-01 7:58 AM Home production would be good in that we could all save the 20% VAT on our fuel bill for a start. sorry to interupt, but this is incorrect Clive vat on fuel is 5% if im wrong i will apologise now *-) jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.