Melvin Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I thought I would cut and paste this article. I recently weighed my motorhome on a public weighbridge, I was horrified. (a) Total weight (but not including any water and fridge empty) driver and passenger 3975 kg (Autotrail/Fiat maximum 4005 kg). It is good job I did not go for the 3 litre & auto it would have added 67 Kg, putting me 37 kg over the max limit. (b) Front axle 1675 kg 80% (Autotrail/Fiat max 2100 kg) © Rear axle 2300Kg 96% (Autotrail/Fiat max 2400 kg) Luckly I use an A frame to tow a Toyota Aygo, if I towed using a trailer I would have to allow for the trailers nose weight (usually 75 Kg) and add this to the rear axle weight. (d) The Gross Train weight for my 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 5045Kg, if you take the motorhome weight of 4005 kg away you are left with a permisable allowance of 1040 kg, fortunately the Aygo including the A frame is less than 1040 kg, however, a Toyota Yaris would be right on the limit. (e) If I towed using a trailer, I would definately be overweight and uninsured. Cut and Pasted Article Motorhomes are sometimes stopped at a police/VOSA random check – on one such occasion last year, every single one was overweight. Don’t let this happen to you… WE all know that it is dangerous and illegal to overload your motorhome, but do we understand just how easily it can happen? Do you really know what your motorhome weighs with all you might put in it? Have you ever been to a weighbridge to check? Your local county council’s Weights and Measures department will tell you the location of your nearest one. A typical mid-size coachbuilt motorhome may have a ‘user payload’ of 400kg, which might sound a lot. But what does this look like and how is it made up? First thing to note is that the payload will be reduced by any extras you have fitted, such as comfort packs, air-con, TVs and the number of passengers carried. The larger motorhomes may be presumed to have more payload, but it is not necessarily so. One confusing aspect is that the term ‘payload’ is not the same as ‘personal effects’. The items in the table below are personal effects (if you are having trouble reading the table, click on it to download a larger PDF). Payload is the difference between the maximum allowable weight of the vehicle and its weight in running order as it left the factory. Passengers, essential habitation equipment and any options have to be deducted, and what's left is for personal items. Whether buying new or secondhand, check the weights in the handbook before you sign the cheque – and do some calculations to make sure the payload suits your needs. British-built ’vans and most imports from the major manufacturers have minimum standards for the personal effects payload as a result of existing European standards, but this is due to change as type approval comes in – and this may well lead to lower minimums. At present, for personal effects you should expect a minimum calculated from the formula 10L + 10N (where L is the length in metres and N is the number of berths), which for a six-metre four-berth works out at just 100kg – not nearly enough for four people on holiday. Fortunately, most motorhomes offer a lot more than the minimum. If you are unable to find a payload figure, then have the vehicle weighed at a public weighbridge, driver on board and with gas cylinders, fuel and water tanks full but nothing else except standard fixtures. Subtract this figure from the plate on the vehicle showing its maximum allowable weight and you will have a good idea of the maximum payload left for optional kit and personal effects. What does it weigh? The Caravan Club reckon about 150kg for two people, or 200kg for four, should be allowed for personal effects for normal touring. But there is no substitute for working it out for yourself by weighing what you normally put in you motorhome. Some examples of items you might take are shown in table 2 – your own kit could vary (if you are having trouble reading the table, click on it to download a larger PDF). Note: just this modest list comes to over 260kg. Items such as the gas cylinders, portable step, mains lead, batteries and 90% of fuel, oil and fresh water are included in the manufacturer’s essential habitation equipment figure, which should be quoted in the handbook and is included as part of the allowable total payload. You need to think carefully about where you store the heavier items if you are not to compromise stability on the road and the motorhome’s maximum rear axle loading also has to be considered. If you store all the heavy items at the rear there is a chance it can become overloaded, which will not only get you in trouble with the law, but can also seriously affect the vehicle’s handling. Try to even out the load across the chassis. The law on weights The law on weights is a mixture of specifics and generalities. It is illegal to drive a vehicle for which either the maximum allowable weight, or any axle weight is exceeded. An overweight vehicle can be prevented by police from continuing its journey until the excess weight has been removed. But it is the generalities which can catch you out. It is also against the law under Construction and Use Regulations No 100 to do anything to ‘cause, or likely to cause danger to anyone in or on a vehicle, or on a road.’ The rule covers the ‘weight, distribution, packing and adjustment’ of the load, and ‘the number of passengers and the manner in which they are carried’. So unbelted passengers, an insecure load or even heavy items in an overhead locker could cause you trouble in a random check. If you do go to the weighbridge, get a certificate (which should cost less than a tenner) to prove the fact, and keep it in the vehicle, as it shows you know what you have done your homework. Even with mostly common EU rules, the method of enforcement can vary widely between countries, specifically in the imposition of on-the-spot fines. For example, maximum speed limits for motorhomes are different and may depend on weight or size categories that are not the same as UK – see the table below (if you are having trouble reading the table, click on it to download a larger PDF). Driving licence rules In the UK at present you can drive a motorhome up to 3500kg maximum weight on a car licence (Category B). Above that limit you will only be able to drive it if you passed your test before 1 January 1997 and have Category C1 on your licence. When you reach 70 years of age this additional entitlement ceases unless you have a medical examination before applying for a new licence. If you want to tow something you will be limited to a trailer of maximum total weight including load of only 750kg, unless you have category C1 on the licence, in which case the maximum for motorhome and trailer is 8250kg. So if you intend to buy, check that you can drive it before parting with your money. If you are not sure check with the DVLA. What if you need more? If you have too little payload for your needs, it is possible in many cases to upgrade the chassis of your motorhome to allow more weight to be carried, but it is not always straightforward. Sometimes it can be a simple matter of a change of tyre specification, or it could mean expensive work on the chassis by a specialist and checking with the Vehicle Certification Agency. In any case you must follow the instructions given by the manufacturer, and make sure your driving licence will cope. Engine, gearbox and trim Now you know how much everything weighs, you might consider going for the more powerful engine option. But beware this too comes at a price. If you want an automatic gearbox, this will usually have a penalty over the manual version, often by as much as 30kg, so be sure to include this too. Even a higher trim spec will have a weight. How to avoid buying the wrong ’van Do your homework! First decide clearly what kind of vehicle you want from a study of Which Motorhome road-tests, brochures, websites etc. Here are a few points for your checklist. Always see more than one vehicle before deciding what to buy and take a test drive. Is it the right size for your driving experience, comfort and licence details? Does it have all the fitted equipment you need? Do you need all the offered options? Is there going to be enough payload for what you will need to take? Is there sufficient storage - in the right places? Is there sufficient ‘moving about’ room in the living area? Is the bed conversion easy? Are the beds comfortable? Is the kitchen well laid out with reasonable workspace? Is the washroom area practical? Do you need automatic transmission or not? Is the dining area big enough for all to sit at the table? Are there sufficient seatbelts for all passengers? (Information correct at time of publishing) The full version of this article appeared in the April 2010 issue of Which Motorhome magazine. Click here to order a back issue, get the latest issue, and take advantage of our great subscription deal today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The ONLY way to find out PRECISELY what payload you have available is to weigh the bloomin thing?? *-) Then do the math....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 Totally agree, however, how many of us our running over the legal limits, I bet on several occasions I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 How many cars do you see on the road fully laden with the roof rack stacked high with luggage and towing a caravan going down the road bowlegged? I know which I'd be safer in at speed and it's not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Rolandrat's "Observation" thread has much more on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Hello all. I have spent most of the day checking and weighing everything in the van (Autocruise Stargazer) Tabulating and adding up starting from measured unladen weight of 2945, and getting ready for a 6 week continental outing, we have arrived at a fully laden weight including bikes and assuming full water load it stacks up to 3530 on a 3500 rating.. Therefore we would be overloaded so it looks like we have to trim down to get within limit (or preferably a bit under for safety margin.) Heaviest items are Bikes (40 kg total) (2 off on rear carrier), full water load 100 ltrs=100kilo, then emergency food stocks, loungers, passenger and driver. It seems that we will have to abandon the bikes and travel with limited water on board, which will bring us down to within gross weight, and then think about axle weights. My driving licence limit is 3500 anyway ( I didnt go for grandfather rights this year , perhaps I should have in retrospect) but van is restricted to 3500 anyway. Maybe we can hire bikes at destination. It has been an interesting day weighing everything and a very "enlightening" excercise ! tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I've got it worked out. If ever we were stopped at a random road side check and were found to be overweight all I would need to do would be to drink a few bottles of wine and cans of Speckled Hen and we'd be fine. In truth I know we are within the limits mainly because since we tour only in the UK and stay at Caravan Club sites we have no need to carry any water and always travel with the water tanks (but not boiler) empty. We are also fortunate in that we are both light weight in ourselves. I did try some wine in light weight plastic bottles but only once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 tonyg3nwl - 2011-03-02 3:04 PM Maybe we can hire bikes at destination. It has been an interesting day weighing everything and a very "enlightening" excercise ! tonyg3nwl Tony you are a mere 30kg over?? just travel with a lot less water and replenish as you go..... and take the bikes you will regret it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 JudgeMental - 2011-03-02 3:33 PM tonyg3nwl - 2011-03-02 3:04 PM Maybe we can hire bikes at destination. It has been an interesting day weighing everything and a very "enlightening" excercise ! tonyg3nwl Tony you are a mere 30kg over?? just travel with a lot less water and replenish as you go..... and take the bikes you will regret it! Yes, But I am concerned about rear axle overload with 2 bikes stuck on rear carrier, approx 6ft behind axle, and kitchen at rear as well. Might be able to move stuff forward from kitchen but needs looking into. Using bikes might just "enlighten"ourselves enough to improve overall loading, but this will reduce front axle loading !. We will manage somehow! Tony3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 But Tony you weighed it? So why did you not note rear axle? A bike rack and bikes can sometimes actually improve front axle capacity because of the fulcrum effect? *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 JudgeMental - 2011-03-02 4:36 PM But Tony you weighed it? So why did you not note rear axle? A bike rack and bikes can sometimes actually improve front axle capacity because of the fulcrum effect? *-) Sadly, the local scrapyard weighbridge is only set up for overall weight, not individual axles (or so he told me). I have to find a different machine to get axle weights done. ( it was a busy time when I went in so maybe he couldnt be bothered) tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 you just draw up with front wheels on - that gives you front axle. then all on giving total weight. then drive forward, leaving just rear wheels on for rear axle. simple as that really........as you said probably to busy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Tony, as you say, you're gonna have to think about the individual axle weights, so I'd suggest you get it weighed properly now, as, until you do, you will not know if you are over each of the axle limits, even if you do 'trim' down your kit, it coudl save you a lot of wasted time. As for not taking the bikes, I'm with Eddie on this, you'll miss not having them. If you take tinned foot only take the miniimum you really need and/or replace with dried foodstuff instead. For stuff in glass jars/bottles, decant them into lightweight plastic ones instead, or take smaller sizes. Ask yourself, do you really need all those pots and pans, crockery etc ... its surprising how much you do NOT need - we used to cart loads around with us (8 mugs for example) and now we only have 4 mugs (2 for us, 2 for guests), melamine crockery, etc, etc. Even a single bottle of lemonade weighs 2kg! What about other stuff like extra bedding/blankets, coats, shoes, it's surprising how much weight this can add up to. I'm sure if you had a really good mooch round your van there'd be stuff you rarely, if ever, use which could be turfed out. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 If you weighed it with a full tank of fuel after about 200miles you will legal, diesel weights 0.82kg/Lt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yrocker Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Weighed mine today and fully loaded with water, fuel,everything we always take and both of us and the dog. Spare payload 1500kgs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 tonyg3nwl - 2011-03-02 4:52 PM Sadly, the local scrapyard weighbridge is only set up for overall weight, not individual axles (or so he told me). I have to find a different machine to get axle weights done. ( it was a busy time when I went in so maybe he couldnt be bothered) tonyg3nwl Tony - Weighbridge tickets are designed for a "double" weighing, i.e. Weight 1 - on arrival & Weight 2 on departure - to give the Tare Weight of what has been Unloaded or Loaded. All you need to do is Drive onto the weighbridge for Weight 1, (total weight of Motorhome) then drive forward so Rear Wheels only are on the Weighbridge for Weight 2. (Weight on Rear Axle) then your Tare weight is the difference between the Weights 1 & 2 = Weight on Front Axle . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 yrocker - 2011-03-02 7:09 PM Weighed mine today and fully loaded with water, fuel,everything we always take and both of us and the dog. Spare payload 1500kgs! :D Now that is just showing off! :D We're looking at fully re-loading ours' this weekend(..and hopefully ditching some stuff we've never used *-),with a view to getting it weighed again it next week,as we've had a rear bumper/towbar and "air rides" fitted since buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 yrocker - 2011-03-02 7:09 PM Weighed mine today and fully loaded with water, fuel,everything we always take and both of us and the dog. Spare payload 1500kgs! You must be nature lovers who forgot to take your sun hat !!! tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Just back from the weighbridge and our's has 110kg spare,which I'm happy with(..and that's with full water/fuel tanks,fully loaded with kit etc)..although it's just as well it's been replated to 3850kg or else we'd be 240kg over!? :-S It also brought back some interesting axle weights as well,with the rear axle having 60kg spare,while the front still has 220kg spare..?? (..and our's has a mid(ish)-mounted onboard tank :-S ) Do Fiamma make "Front boxes"? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Regarding Gross Train Weights, there is no mention in my Autotrail supplied handbook (Vehicle Specification) of gross train weight (just maximum gross weight) or to that matter tyre pressures, I assume they expect you to comply with the supplied Fiat Handbook ( these are both legal documents) with state maximum trailer weight 2500 kg/ gross train weight 6500 kg. However, I have noticed on Autotrail revamped site under 'technical feature/measurement'' they now specify Max Towing Weight, the replacement for my Cheynne 660 the Cherokee is 1040 kg. As from April 2012 all motorhome towbar will have to type approved, this will cause serious probless regarding towing cars on trailers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Melvin - 2011-03-04 11:14 AM Regarding Gross Train Weights, there is no mention in my Autotrail supplied handbook (Vehicle Specification) of gross train weight (just maximum gross weight) or to that matter tyre pressures, I assume they expect you to comply with the supplied Fiat Handbook ( these are both legal documents) with state maximum trailer weight 2500 kg/ gross train weight 6500 kg. ................. But, you must be careful. 2,500kg is the maximum actual laden weight of trailer that can be towed. 6,500kg gross train weight, is the combined maximum actual laden weights of the tow vehicle plus its trailer. Thus, the heavier your motorhome, the lighter the ALW of the trailer, within the two limits of 2,500kg and 6,500kg. If, for example, the motorhome weighs 4,500kg, the maximum ALW of the trailer must not exceed 2,000kg (4,500 + 2,000 = 6,500). Also, be aware that outside the UK, it is the MAMs of trailer and tow vehicle that will be taken into account, and not their ALW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Take you point Brian, my motorhome max is 4000 kg, I tow a Toyota Aygo on a A frame just to be on the safe side. As regards continetal travel my missus will not even go to the Isle of Wight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Melvin - 2011-03-04 11:14 AM Regarding Gross Train Weights, there is no mention in my Autotrail supplied handbook (Vehicle Specification) of gross train weight (just maximum gross weight) or to that matter tyre pressures, I assume they expect you to comply with the supplied Fiat Handbook ( these are both legal documents) with state maximum trailer weight 2500 kg/ gross train weight 6500 kg. However, I have noticed on Autotrail revamped site under 'technical feature/measurement'' they now specify Max Towing Weight, the replacement for my Cheynne 660 the Cherokee is 1040 kg. As from April 2012 all motorhome towbar will have to type approved, this will cause serious probless regarding towing cars on trailers? According to the 2008 brochure, the Maximum Gross Train Weight for a 2008 Cheyenne 660 is also 5040kg. 8-) I would look very carefully at the weight plate under the bonnet, or any secondary plate fitted by Auto-Trail, to ascertain what that says (since, if you get pulled on the road, that is the figure that will be sought and used by the authorities). If it doesn't align with the 5040kg set out in the brochure, I would also be chasing Auto-Trail for their view on the correct figure. See extract below: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Cheers Robinhood, I totally agree with you (see my posting at the start of the thread), however, judging by the number of motorhomes towing cars on trailers there must be several motorhome running over weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 flicka - 2011-03-02 10:19 PM tonyg3nwl - 2011-03-02 4:52 PM Sadly, the local scrapyard weighbridge is only set up for overall weight, not individual axles (or so he told me). I have to find a different machine to get axle weights done. ( it was a busy time when I went in so maybe he couldnt be bothered) tonyg3nwl Tony - Weighbridge tickets are designed for a "double" weighing, i.e. Weight 1 - on arrival & Weight 2 on departure - to give the Tare Weight of what has been Unloaded or Loaded. All you need to do is Drive onto the weighbridge for Weight 1, (total weight of Motorhome) then drive forward so Rear Wheels only are on the Weighbridge for Weight 2. (Weight on Rear Axle) then your Tare weight is the difference between the Weights 1 & 2 = Weight on Front Axle . In Royal Tunbridge Wells they will charge twice for doing this as two separate transactions. Typical Tunbridge Wells rip off but they do do it as I have had ours weighed and tried to argue as above with no success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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