chris Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Thats why I am researching and getting quotes. As my daughter works for the firm I know she will not push a dud product. Long term I am looking to retire in year or so and want my bills as low as possible . Also when we are away in the van then our roof should make money for us.It should pay for itself within 9 years and than we gain a small income. Fuel is going up and up and I really want to plan for retirement now. There are so many questions. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkc Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The problem I think with this kind of installation is that future development may mean that you end up with a large white (or green) elephant attached to your roof. This is a very fast moving area of research at the moment with all the big players jumping in with serious money, even Fiat are in on the act, fortunately gearboxes are not required in most systems. Non silicon based, and therefore potentially much cheaper coatings, even one deposited by ink jet are on the way, combined PV Thermal systems, AC PV modules that do not waste large amounts of power in conversion, are all on the horizon. Having never been the pioneer type, (they are the ones you see on the trail with arrows in their backs) My money stays in my pocket until this emerging market sees the full light of day, pun intended. Postnote, I for one would love to see the generator diagram, but perhaps a photo would be easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Who pays the FIT? The same people who pay for everything - not the supply companies - the consumer. This is because everyone pays a small additional chrage per unit to cover the cost of paying out the FIT. It should be shown on your bill but very often isn't or is disguised as a something else surcharge. We had a 4 kw pv system fitted two months ago and whilst we paid a lot more than has been suggested above we did get a decent inverter and control sustem proffesionally fitted by a local firm of high repute. Peace of mind is worth more to us than saving every last penny and a full 10 year warranty, insurance backed in case the firm goes bust, we like. Plus sliding scale warranty on the panels over the remaining 25 life expectancy. So far in eight weeks it has earned us a total of £498 in FIT, plus we have used hardly any oil as the hot water immersion heater is on daytime only timer. According to the inverter read out when the sun is at it's peak on a bright clear day we are generating 3.7 kw - which I think is pretty good. This drops to nil by about dusk and this time will of course get earlier as the nights draw in. Obviously that will drop very considerably in the winter months but if we get 4 months at the above rate, plus 4 months at say two thirds that, plus 4 months at say one third I will be content. On balance I am happy with the investment as it looks like giving us full payback in about 6 years plus an ongoing income and should add to the property value with it's government backed guarantee of a FIT income for 25 years. We shall see! I liken it to buying a pension annuity - you pay your lump sum which is then 'lost' - apart from an unspecified add on property value - but you get an income for 25 years in return. I don't care about saving the planet, emmisions or all that clap trap - all I care about is making a good investment and reducing my costs over the longer term - and rightly or wrongly - I consider that this does all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Tracker - 2011-07-03 8:02 AM Who pays the FIT? The same people who pay for everything - not the supply companies - the consumer. This is because everyone pays a small additional charge per unit to cover the cost of paying out the FIT. ........................... Quite so. But if the rate of take up of these schemes continues to rise, so too will that small additional charge. In time, with sufficient take up, the difference will become politically unsustainable, because it will probably tend to be the poorer and more disadvantaged households - who can least afford the cost of installation - who will bear the brunt of the charges. It seems to me that the rate of return can only fall over time, for just these reasons. The seeds of destruction of this method of financing are embedded into it. The Germans have already had to row back fast on their schemes. Time will tell, of course, but it looks flawed to me. What householders really need is proper, professional (by which I mean not trade related) advice, from genuinely knowledgeable advisers, based on their own property, setting out the advantages, the practicalities, and the costs, including lifetime costs, of the various options. What is happening at present is nowhere near that: just a succession of costly, politically face-saving, gimmicks. My opinion, but I've seen nothing to persuade me otherwise to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I take your point Brian, but as I understand it the government will retain the FIT incentive as is for 25 years from the day you start and for all existing systems the rate at startup determines the index link base for every future year up to 25 years. Indeed this year the figures have already been increased by the rate of inflation - or one of the many variations of it - about 3% I think - easily checked if one is so inclined. The risk will come in future years as capacity increases the government incentive to have all this energy fed into the grid may fall and when it does - or financial constraints intervene - then the FIT rates will very likely at lesat be frozen and at worst may fall. However if you are in it before that time and bearing in mind that it actually costs HM government very little I still think it is an offer that is well worthy of consideratioon if one has the spare capital and does not need to borrow to pay for it. Depends on how much faith you put in the integrity of government I suppose! Now there are two words not normally used together - 'government' and 'integrity'!! Do ya feel lucky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I know! Worrying isn't it? :-) Only my opinion, but I think the government is living in la-la land - or else it thinks the rest of us are! But what changes? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The only ray of sunshine seems to be that that very clever and responsible Mr Brown made some pretty unattainable pledges about CO2 reduction which every successive government has to try and reach - clever eh? If, in so doing it means they pay us instead of building another nuclear power station well then that can't be all bad as it is cheaper, so I understand to get us to pay for our own pv panel instalation and then pay us 45p a unit for generating solar electricity than it is for the state, or the French, to generate nuclear power if you take into account the whole of life costs of building, running and decommissioning a nuclear power station! We still need nuclear of course to be free from those awfully unpredictable Arab and Ruskie chappies but maybe 9 new nuclear power staions instead of 10 is worth it after all? Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 As a doudting thomas I would point out that over the next 25 years better systems will arrive also that there will be repairs needed to the installation who pays for these then at the end the panels and control gear no doubt contain chemicals that will need professional disposal at whose cost finaly governments change and so do their prioraties (my spellings crap) only my view.John 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 teflon2 - 2011-07-03 9:19 PM As a doudting thomas I would point out that over the next 25 years better systems will arrive also that there will be repairs needed to the installation who pays for these then at the end the panels and control gear no doubt contain chemicals that will need professional disposal at whose cost finaly governments change and so do their prioraties (my spellings crap) only my view.John 8-) Isn't this the case with everything that we purchase, washing machines, TV, cars and so on, so I believe that argument should be discounted for the purposes of this discussion. The points really are, can you trust the government to keep to it's word/agreement, can you get a better return on your money elsewhere if the government does keep to it's word/agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Syd - 2011-07-04 12:51 AM The points really are, A can you trust the government to keep to it's word/agreement, B can you get a better return on your money elsewhere if the government does keep to it's word/agreement. A - I certainly hope so Syd! B - Possibly on the stock market but that too has it's not inconsiderable risks when seeking a plus 15% pa return! Anyone got a crystal ball I can borrow please - or bring back Mystic Meg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Well Tracker We are going for a roof full of solar panels as soon as I, or should I say IF I ever get, through all of the alterations on the house. Got another four or five weeks of hard work left yet, so as we are going away Aug/Sept time I think it will have to be next year now. Would be interested in what amount you are having put up and what the costings are for comparisons and also for bargaining if you wouldn't mind sharing them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Sure Syd - I wanted three comparable quotes but as two of the companies were comedians with their prices we ended up with five quotes. They ranged from £12,000 to £21,000 for a 4 kw system, the three best were from £12k to £14k, and after some hard negotiation we ended up paying well under £12k from a well reputed local specialist electrical company. This was aided by my eighbour and I both having identical systems fitted simultaneously which helped with the price. That was early May and so far we have generated well over 1000kw and the income from that 'currently' charges in at over £500 in 9 weeks. Of the national companies NPower were the most professional and their price was around £13750. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Tracker - 2011-07-05 9:21 PM we ended up paying well under £12k from a well reputed local specialist electrical company. That was early May and so far we have generated well over 1000kw and the income from that 'currently' charges in at over £500 in 9 weeks. . See, now I'm confused by all these figures being banded around, if your panels have generated over £500 income in 9 weeks, that equates to an average £55 per week. So surely it would only take you 218 weeks, thats 4 years, to recoup your initial outlay of £12k (you don't mention the exact figure so I've used your quote as a number). I know the income would drop during the darker days, but surely not enough for it to take 15-20 years to recoup. Forget your winter fuel bills because you would have had to pay them regardless, I'm only concerned about income from the energy that you can use to recover the outlay for the system. For it to take 15 years, you would only be generating an income of £15 per week average over the year, we know it's an issue of sunshine hours, but we also know winter sun can be quite intense. I've read through most of the thread, so I'm not asking anyone to go into great detail, it was merely an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/utilities/2011/07/energy-savings-trust-cuts-estimate-of-bill-savings-from-solar-panels This link should clarify thats its worth buying your own. My daughter advises 2.7kw for us at the moment but her firm do not recommend us using the intergrated panels as they are not so efficient so we would place them on th new roof. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 donna miller - 2011-07-06 8:46 AM I've read through most of the thread, so I'm not asking anyone to go into great detail, it was merely an observation. It is far too soon to tell for sure Donna but I reckon payback in full will be around 7 years. From then on it's all profit as is the anticipated addition to the property value if we sell up. Would you pay a bit more for a property with a govt backed guaranteed and established and proven income for the balance of 25 years - I would certainly consider it! Just need the govt to stick to it's side of the bargain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Big write up in Money Mail today, it says. Solar panels that cost up to £16000 will knock just £70 a year off household bills, which is almost half the original estimate, energy experts have admitted. The Energy Saving Trust (EST) has cut its estimate on how much you could save on your electricity bill using solar panels from the previous £120 per year. The EST had estimated that about 50% of the energy produced by solar panels is used in the home. It now says the figure is more like 25% It also says that it would only benefit people who were home all day, and that only solar panels that are on roofs or walls facing South are any good. It also lambasts unscrupulous salesmen and their companies. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-07-06 9:19 PM Big write up in Money Mail today, it says. Solar panels that cost up to £16000 will knock just £70 a year off household bills, which is almost half the original estimate, energy experts have admitted. The Energy Saving Trust (EST) has cut its estimate on how much you could save on your electricity bill using solar panels from the previous £120 per year. The EST had estimated that about 50% of the energy produced by solar panels is used in the home. It now says the figure is more like 25% It also says that it would only benefit people who were home all day, and that only solar panels that are on roofs or walls facing South are any good. It also lambasts unscrupulous salesmen and their companies. Dave Let me give my thoughts to the above. You don't buy solar PV panels to save money on your electric bills and any cost savings is purely a covenient by product. The income comes primarily from generating power which is measured by a smart meter inserted between the inverter and the mains supply. The value of all the units generated are then paid for to you at 43.3p per unit by the power supply company. In addition you are deemed to be consuming 50% of what you generate and exporting the other 50% into the national grid for which you also get paid an extra 3.1 p per unit. To make it easier I add half of 3.1 to 43.3 to arrive at the 44.85 p per unit that I get from NPower - thank you very much to everyone else who is subsidising this - I'm very grateful! I don't know how much of the power that we have generated we actually use - and I don't much care because it is not really relevant as far as I can see - but as we are at home most days and now heat the water by immersion heater timed to run in daylight hours plus we cook our main meal at lunchtime by electric it seems to make more sense than burning oil to heat water? Whatever percentage of home generated energy that we consume is also saving me from having to pay for it at about 12p per unit - and about to rise - as it undoubtedly will as time passes - a nice little bonus freebie I reckon and it matters not if it's 25% or 75% as it is just a convenient, if unquantifiable, by product of the way the tariffs and metering are set up? Our roof faces almost due South and there is no shadowing by trees or other buildings at all at any time and that does make a big difference to the output. I agree about dodgy salesmen - it is rife with them. It seems to work for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I'm only the bloody messenger, I didn't write it. Give me my ball back I'm going home..!! *-) It's not fair. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Quiet how anyone can make out an argument against solar when faced with the correct facts as put by Tracker defeats me, cannot wait to get ours onto the roof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-07-06 10:32 PM I'm only the bloody messenger, I didn't write it. Give me my ball back I'm going home..!! *-) It's not fair. Dave Sorry Dave - not having a go at you - just putting it how I see it - no intention to offend you - well not this time anyway! Anyway, it's always good to get all the sides to an argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Tracker - 2011-07-06 8:02 PM It is far too soon to tell for sure Donna but I reckon payback in full will be around 7 years. That sounds pretty good, and a lot more realistic than the 15-20 years being banded about. I hope it all pans out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Tracker - 2011-07-07 7:27 AM nowtelse2do - 2011-07-06 10:32 PM I'm only the bloody messenger, I didn't write it. Give me my ball back I'm going home..!! *-) It's not fair. Dave Sorry Dave - not having a go at you - just putting it how I see it - no intention to offend you - well not this time anyway! Anyway, it's always good to get all the sides to an argument! No offence taken Rich. I always regard you as one of the forums foremost posters & threaders of intelligent comments and observations (That should make Peter's flesh crawl, Hi Peter, hope the weather is better for you :-D ) The post wasn't aimed at you, it was just a general comment to show that there is controversy on the subject. It was a good read though and a lot more info about it. Just Google This is Money and have a read. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-07-07 12:19 PM No offence taken Rich. I always regard you as one of the forums foremost posters & threaders of intelligent comments and observations (That should make Peter's flesh crawl, Hi Peter, hope the weather is better for you :-D ) The post wasn't aimed at you, it was just a general comment to show that there is controversy on the subject. It was a good read though and a lot more info about it. Just Google This is Money and have a read. Dave Thanks Dave - cheque in the post as agreed! I know you didn't aim it at me and I realise that you didn't take offence Dave - I was just making a point about how to disagree politely for the benefit of those who are still unable to master it! I don't think Peter has flesh - scales perhaps? I read the This Is Money article and all I can say is that it is as good a sample as any half baked, misinformed, never let the truth spoil a story and biased writing that I have seen recently (can't call it journalism). As I said buying solar panels is not about saving on your electricity bill - it never was and never will be! it is all about getting paid for generating solar power and theoretically exporting electricity back to the grid and in the right location it works well - 45,000 people can't all be wrong! It even works and earns you money while you are at work all day and away on holiday! Just not very well on a dull day and not at all at night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Well our panels are on and the system went live 2 days ago now. Really realy pleased with the work done. We have been lucky with scaffolders, roofers , electricians and solar panel fitters. All have been quality workmen who take a pride in their work and have left no mess. Retirement looks more profitable now :-D chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 For information of anyone still considering. Ours are also up and running, 12 days now, we are well happy with all aspects of installation, very professional in every aspect. With this wonderful weather the output has been phenominal. It is a 4kW system that cost £11235 so should break even in around 5 to 6 years however if we have more of this lovely weather it will be quicker than that, we can live in hope but we also realise that the quoted figures are more likely to be accurate. All equipment is gauranteed for 10 years and the panels for 25 years based on a sliding output scale that does not drop below 80%. The house has run free throughout the day, since installation, and we have already produced £98 of output. If you watch the output, in our case using the remote Sunnybeam logger, and match your usage it is certainly possible to use at least, if not more, than 50% of the output. So far everything we have learned and that the sales people and Tracker has said is correct, just got to wait for the income to start entering our bank account to confirm our decision (need that to remove any doubts we may still have), the energy company has notified us it is dealing with our application for FIT and we will be paid from the start up reading of zero as supplied. Well done and thanks Tracker for finally nudging us to go for it Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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