CliveH Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 If anyone wants examples of "Non-Jobs" - just look at the Taxpayers Alliance website. http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/waste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-03-12 9:12 AM Taken from your PCS website 8-) 8-) ( Just for clarification, it's not my PCS website it is the Unions :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Big Momma - 2011-03-12 12:39 PM pelmetman - 2011-03-12 9:12 AM Taken from your PCS website 8-) 8-) ( Just for clarification, it's not my PCS website it is the Unions :D :D :D Ummmm..........................so as you are in the PCS Union and are paying for it, that make it.........ummmm................................your union website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 T8LEY - 2011-03-12 12:36 AM BGD - 2011-03-12 12:05 AM robkilby - 2011-03-11 9:24 PM Big Momma - 2011-03-11 8:56 PM malc d - 2011-03-11 8:33 PM I would be surprised if there are any serious strikes. They will be encouraged by plenty of bluster from well paid union bosses of course, because that is their job. :-| I am in the PCS Union, there has been NO mention of strikes only a 'March' in London on 26th of this month. Not just by members of PCS Union I hasten to add but all Unions that represent 'Public Sector' workers. Hope the weathers nice, don't get to London too often :D Cheers Big Moma I am PCS too ( staff rep) Good luck to you Rob Just a thought Rob: as a PCS union rep, what's your/your unions suggested actual solution to this demographic/funding Public Sector Pensions problem? You probably wouldn't find this in the Daily Mail but the internet is not as biased. http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/campaigns/campaign-resources/there-is-an-alternative-the-case-against-cuts-in-public-spending.cfm For pities sake man, read what your own union has written there. Actually read it through. That diatribe is not a solution! It is a jumble of utter, non-economic, socialist lunacy. You are actually paying these union people? It's utterly light years away from anything in the Real World. Sorry, but what they have said there really is a perfect Q.E.D. Public Sector Unions really do not have even a smidge of any understanding as to where all the money is earned to then be taxed in order to feed and water and gold-plate pension their members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 BGD - 2011-03-12 1:15 PM Big Momma - 2011-03-12 12:39 PM pelmetman - 2011-03-12 9:12 AM Taken from your PCS website 8-) 8-) ( Just for clarification, it's not my PCS website it is the Unions :D :D :D Ummmm..........................so as you are in the PCS Union and are paying for it, that make it.........ummmm................................your union website. Just playing with you and the use of words. The website has nothing to do with me, I didn't set it up and I don't have anything to do with the maintenance of it so it is not 'MY' website. Much like 'Ask Jeeves' or 'Google Search' is not 'My' website :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Well, that got Clive and Bruce out of bed with a bang didn't it? :-D Despite that, and the rather colourful way they expressed their views, they do have a point. If that is really the considered opinion of the PCSU leadership - and they've put their names to it so one must suppose it is - they really haven't begun to comprehend the reality of where they are. I can understand that they may want to look pro-active, and even to boost morale among a group who, through no real fault of their own, are taking something of a public kicking at present, but misleading their members as to the realities of their situation is, IMO, going down the same route Scargill led the miners! When the writing is on the wall in letters the size of the present writing, it pays to read it and understand it, not do a "Nelson's eye" with it.There may well be alternatives to the present government's proposals (in fact there almost certainly are), but denial of the problem isn't one of them, and it will not serve the interests of the PCSU to pretend it could be. I think someone needs new union leadership, and fast. Sorry Guys, but with that mindset at the helm, you're trussed, stuffed, and roasted! :-)Er, bit of a mixed metaphor there, methinks, but what the hell! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 The PCS Union (Can't speak for the rest as I have no first hand experience) do a lot more for it's members than ask them to go on marches (NOT Strikes), it does a really good job of representing employees in disputes with the employer, without this support the employer would still just use bullying tactics to manipulate it's staff. However, I think that you will find that members of Unions these days do not just jump to the Unions tune. We can see for ourselves what is happening and whether there is a need to take strike action (If it is called for). I do tend to agree with a lot of what has been said on here, from the perspective of the Private Sector, but it makes me smile when you put your head above the parapet and declare that you are an employee of the Public sector that you suddenly become 'Public Enemy No1' as if it was your 'personal' fault that we are in this mess and that the private Sector have got no responsibility for it e.g. Private Sector charge Public Sector £22 for a £0.65p light bulb. Their are lots of sub-arguments here but in the main it is the Greed of the private sector that overcharges the public sector and then complains about it wasting money. The other thing that makes me smile is that when you leave school you are more interested in getting the job you want, I don't think that at 16 years old I even knew that there was a Private Sector and a Public sector. You get a job and for 38 years you remain employed, no claiming benefits and paying what you believe is your share of taxation, in all it's forms, only to be told that for 38 years you have been sponging off the Private Sector. Now did those people in the Private Sector know when they got their jobs which side of the 'Sector Divide' they were joining, I think not, it was a job. Then when they get to a certain age of 'discontent' they stand on a soap box on a Motorhome Forum rather than getting their bums out of their armchairs and directing their wrath at the 'people' who they should and the only people who can do anything about it - The Politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 "e.g. Private Sector charge Public Sector £22 for a £0.65p light bulb." You genuinely still can't see it can you? That was yet another cost-cockup by the PUBLIC SECTOR. The Private Sector DID NOT "charge" the Public Sector £22 for a 65p light bulb! What happened was that the cretins in the Public Sector AGREED to pay that amount for each light bulb. In a binding contract. That THEY wrote, as the customer. Now which private sector wealth creating supplier is going to say "no" when presented with a supply contract to sign, including such price-terms as that? But hey, no problem. Because it isn't their money that they are spending. It is that of all individuals in the wealth creating Private Sector. Every penny spent on or by the Public Sector; please think about this: yes EVERY PENNY, was first generated by people in the Private Sector, and then taken from them and their Companies by force of law via taxation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Well I am out of bed and raring to go Brian!! :-S Not sure about Bruce tho - you will have to ask him how he is this morning. But once again - he is spot on with the light bulb example. And trouble is - it is not an isolated case. The Public Service MOD Procurement agreed the purchase of 8 Chinook helicopters ten years or so ago from Boeing but did not want the software that went with them as they would fit their own. Here we are years later - the aircraft still not flying because they cannot get an airworthiness certificate! The RAF were overruled as they said from the start it would be better to buy kit "off the shelf" that can do the job from day one. Cost? - £Billions - Military Lives due to helicopter shortage??? The Public Sector MOD Procurement disallowed a totally new aircraft to replace the old Nimrod, saying that the fuselage was OK to revamp that and stick new wings on it. Trouble was all those fuselages were effectively hand built and so each set of wings had to be modified to fit each individual fuselage. - The whole project was a total disaster and again the needs of the RAF were overruled by idiots. The whole project has now been cancelled. Cost - again £Billions and again our military fights in wars without the proper kit that we as tax payers have actually paid for but the Public Sector squandered with no thought for those at the sharp end of the fight or the tax payer who provides the funds. So yes - I do have strong feelings on this - in the same way that I have strong feelings about the Public Service PCT's dictating to GP's what treatments are available to seriously sick people. There are examples of waste a plenty. Many of them, - from £22 light bulbs to aircraft refurbishment costing £billions that was never going to work. Hospital Computer systems that fail, to Hospital grounds being landscaped the year before the gardens are to be levelled for a new building. And the rationale for the later? “If we do not spend the money this year, we will not get it next year”. Public Sector accounting – unbelievable. You do not need to be an expert in maths or accountancy to realise that something is wrong! And yet we have this silly union publishing such utter, utter garbage that demonstrates in spades the total ignorance and greed of some in the Public Sector who clearly want the status quo to continue. Thank goodness ALL this Public Sector waste is now being curtailed - because it is about ruddy time! My take on this is that cut out the waste and the silly accounting and in fact there would be far MORE money for those in the Public Sector at the sharp end who we all know do a good job. What I want to do is target the numpty non jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 BGD - 2011-03-12 11:35 PM "e.g. Private Sector charge Public Sector £22 for a £0.65p light bulb." You genuinely still can't see it can you? That was yet another cost-cockup by the PUBLIC SECTOR. The Private Sector DID NOT "charge" the Public Sector £22 for a 65p light bulb! What happened was that the cretins in the Public Sector AGREED to pay that amount for each light bulb. In a binding contract. That THEY wrote, as the customer. Now which private sector wealth creating supplier is going to say "no" when presented with a supply contract to sign, including such price-terms as that? But hey, no problem. Because it isn't their money that they are spending. It is that of all individuals in the wealth creating Private Sector. Every penny spent on or by the Public Sector; please think about this: yes EVERY PENNY, was first generated by people in the Private Sector, and then taken from them and their Companies by force of law via taxation. BGD, I do get it and I do not have any dispute with recognising the fact the Public Sector money comes from the Private Sector. My point is (Not just with Light Bulb example but with the vast majority of Private Sector Services provided to the Public Sector) the Private Sector provide the money to the public sector, the public sector re-cycle much of this back in to the Private Sector in the form of getting products or services provided. If the Private Sector overcharge for these products or services, then it is themselves they are overcharging for the products or services. The more they overcharge the more the Public Sector take from taxes etc. Then nthe Private Sector moan because of the increased amounts they have to pay - Just one vicious circle really - Do you get it ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I do not think anyone who sees what goes on with the Public Sector does not "get it" - and I for one agree that the Private Sector will be there ready to take advantage. The example I would quote again is Equitable Life. It managed to convince the Civil Servants that its dubious operating system was the best and so 80% of Public Sector AVC schemes were with this one provider - including the regulator - The Financial Services Authority. The fact that because of this horrendous "eggs in basket" stupidity, the FSA sat on its hands when it was obvious that Equitable Life had pulled a fast one is technically a crime. But because the FSA is part of the Public Sector it is immune from prosecution. However, any company in the Private Sector that selected a single dubious AVC pension provider would have been taken to task under the rules as laid down by the FSA! They make the rules but make sure they cannot be applied to themselves! So a classic example of one rule for the Public Sector and another for the Private Sector. And look who makes those rules. It took tremendous pressure by EMAG and others to get the Government of the day to look at what went on - and as I say - the Parliamentary Ombudsman found "a decade of regulatory failure". So we do see - what we want is for others to see and understand the cost to the country and taxpayers of this sort of abuse (and it is abuse) of power and taxpayers money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Clive, I am not disagreeing with anything that you or any of the other's have said, can I finally make that clear. And, it is not my fault !! I do not make the rules and regulations, I have no power to influence or change these things I just happen to have a full time job to pay my mortgage and all the other bills like everyone else in this country. YES, the Private Sector pays my wages, THANK YOU VERY MUCH and VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. BUT it just appears that there are people that work in the Private Sector who appear to take the holier than though stance and do not see that they themselves may have an impact on the rising costs being taken out of the Tax system. I am going to hold up the white flag, only because I have realised that whilst I am prepared to see and even agree with many of the points made, getting those in the Private Sector to even acknowledge that they do themselves create some of this 'self harm' is a pointless exercise. At the end of the day, in the main a very good debate but I find it is just going round and round in circles. So no more contributions from me on this one :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Fair comment Eric - I don't suppose any of us will convince anyone else to change their views, but your contribution to this debate, from the "other side of the fence", has been positive and welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Big Momma - 2011-03-13 1:36 PM So no more contributions from me on this one :D Spoil sport :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 robkilby - 2011-03-11 8:26 PM Colin Leake - 2011-03-11 5:16 PM Those thinking of going on strike should look at what has happened in some other countries where the governments have run out of money and can't borrow any more with the result that they are unable to pay public sector and even the armed forces salaries never mind pensions. Don't think it could never happen here no country can go on borrowing money indefinitely. My neighbours sometime ago who are both in the police were telling me how early they could retire and on what a good pension. At the time they did not believe me when I told them it would never happen because there would simply not be the money available. They are feeling a bit sheepish now but I must say are taking it very well now that they realise it just has to be. Anyone who allows a union to talk them into going on strike is just plain barmy. There is no money it's that simple. Unlike the previous government no matter how long a strike is the government simply can't give in so the only one out of pocket will be the strikers. Personally I'm not expecting a wave of serious strikes. Public sector workers are not that daft and even the unions no matter what they say know that what is happening is inevitable and can't be stopped. Colin On what are you basing your statement " unlike the previous government.........." ? Could be the one that failed to even accept the problem never mind try and find a solution! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 One comment from me is that mentioning ‘wages’ has no part of this discussion. Everybody is entitled to a wage for the work they do, regardless of the source. However, what is being questioned is the money being received AFTER’ finishing work and whether this truly reflects the money paid in by the employee. In this instance all the information being made available indicates that the PS employee is NOT receiving a return based on their contributions, but a greatly enhanced one. If the PS workers feel that it is entirely fair that they should be subsidised in this way, then that is their right, but I doubt it will sit well with those who are having to finance it without any ‘by your leave’. Again, I feel the main fault lies in the various public employers who allowed these schemes to develope without ever thinking who would actually pay for them. As it would never be them, they just did not care, and have led many workers to have an incorrect view of their own status. However, like all parties, it has to come to an end and if I was a PS worker between the ages of 55 and 60, I would be counting the days to get finished and collect my pension. If I was 55 or less then I would be thinking that the Contract I have is likely to be broken and that i will be working an extra 5 years to get less. Therefore what should I do to ensure that I have protected myself. If they feel the Unions will sort it all out, then I regret they may be disappointed. Biting the hand that feeds you is never a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 A little further digging on those light bulbs suggests that they were, in fact, supplied under a PFI contract. Numerous other examples abound. If one looks at the history of PFI, this is hardly surprising, bearing in mind the objective was (in layman's terms that I can understand), to conceal public expenditure by dressing it as private expenditure. That little ditty "Oh what tangled webs we weave,when first we practise to deceive" rather comes to mind. :-)Off hand, I can't think of anything bought under PFI, that could not have been bought more cheaply by almost any other means. This is not to excuse the price paid for the light bulb, but simply to try to knock another nail in the coffin of this vastly expensive lunacy. If you think the bulb was expensive, then apply the same multiplier to the costs of all the schools, courts, prisons, and hospitals that have been funded under PFI. So, I think it was more than a little unfair to link people such as Eric with this whole issue, because of career decisions made 40 years earlier. That does somehow smack of the exhortation to choose you parents with care! Eric is right, it was not of his choosing, nor of his invention (Australia, apparently), and was first adopted in the UK under Major. I have seen PFI projects from both sides, and cannot think of a single example where the cost could be presented as advantageous to the tax payer. So far as I could see, the only ultimate beneficiaries were the "money men" and their legal advisers who, naturally, drew up the contracts to ensure they couldn't loose. Why should they do otherwise?If you didn't like their terms, you didn't get your facility - unless you directly funded it yourself from the public purse. The reason why that was not done was because government wished to provide new facilities (laudable), while at the same time staying within a public spending limit of 3% (I think) of GDP. It also wished to place all the risk in the lap of the PFI contractor (very expensive, by the time the risk analysis had been completed!), preferring guaranteed high future costs to the uncertainties of construction project cost out-turns (foolish, but if you will take advice on value from the biggest potential beneficiary..........).Now, I'm not claiming this justifies the grossly inflated cost of the light bulb, just that it rather neatly illustrates why and how (through suspension of economic judgement in pursuit of electoral success) such a simple item can come to cost so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robkilby Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 BGD - 2011-03-11 11:05 PM robkilby - 2011-03-11 9:24 PM Big Momma - 2011-03-11 8:56 PM malc d - 2011-03-11 8:33 PM I would be surprised if there are any serious strikes. They will be encouraged by plenty of bluster from well paid union bosses of course, because that is their job. :-| I am in the PCS Union, there has been NO mention of strikes only a 'March' in London on 26th of this month. Not just by members of PCS Union I hasten to add but all Unions that represent 'Public Sector' workers. Hope the weathers nice, don't get to London too often :D Cheers Big Moma I am PCS too ( staff rep) Good luck to you Rob Just a thought Rob: as a PCS union rep, what's your/your unions suggested actual solution to this demographic/funding Public Sector Pensions problem? er...what problem ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Have you genuinely not even grasped the nature of, and overwhelming size of, the private sector tax-payer funding problem for all your public sector pension benefits Rob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendolyn Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 BGD - 2011-03-13 10:16 PM Have you genuinely not even grasped the nature of, and overwhelming size of, the private sector tax-payer funding problem for all your public sector pension benefits Rob? 40 odd years ago, upon graduating, I chose to teach. So do you want me to give up my pension, perhaps to you personally? Will that solve the problem? Am I to blame? Service to the community is something one does if one has the service ethic; now retired, I still do voluntary work. That is the ethic of public sector workers. Tell me where I have gone wrong. How have I caused the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendolyn Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-03-13 6:01 PM That little ditty "Oh what tangled webs we weave,when first we practise to deceive" rather comes to mind. :-) Not a "ditty". From Marmion, Canto VI. Stanza 17, by Sir Walter Scott..... correctly, "... a tangled web we weave...:" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendolyn Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-03-13 6:01 PM That little ditty "Oh what tangled webs we weave,when first we practise to deceive" rather comes to mind. :-) Not a "ditty". From Marmion, Canto VI. Stanza 17, by Sir Walter Scott..... correctly, "... a tangled web we weave...:" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendolyn Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 EEEKKKKK! Double post. How did that happen???? Now I cannot find a way to delete the duplicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 PFI was quiet simply Knowall Government Idiots dealing with Astute businessmen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Gwendolyn - 2011-03-14 12:24 AM Brian Kirby - 2011-03-13 6:01 PM That little ditty "Oh what tangled webs we weave,when first we practise to deceive" rather comes to mind. :-) Not a "ditty". From Marmion, Canto VI. Stanza 17, by Sir Walter Scott..... correctly, "... a tangled web we weave...:" Thank you Gwendolyn, you're right, I didn't check - once or twice! :-) But you see the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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