Pensions cut = strikes

[Brian Kirby]

Syd - 2011-03-14 9:44 AM PFI was quiet simply Knowall Government Idiots dealing with Astute businessmen

So, do you have a solution to that Syd?  I suspect not, as you wouldn't be wasting your time on here of you did!  :-D

[Colin Leake]

I shouldn't worry about the Unions, their membership is steadily falling and their days are surely numbered. After all why would you want to be a member paying your dues to pay generous salaries and expenses to fat cat union bosses and then loosing more money being called out on strike with no positive results.

 

Look at the BA cabin crew they must have lost a fortune on pay whilst out on strike not to mention the loss of their valuable privileges for what amounts to virtually no real gain!

[Gwendolyn]

Brian Kirby - 2011-03-14 3:37 PM

Gwendolyn - 2011-03-14 12:24 AM

Brian Kirby - 2011-03-13 6:01 PM That little ditty "Oh what tangled webs we weave,when first we practise to deceive" rather comes to mind.  :-)

Not a "ditty". From Marmion, Canto VI. Stanza 17, by Sir Walter Scott..... correctly, "... a tangled web we weave...:"

Thank you Gwendolyn, you're right, I didn't check - once or twice! :-)  But you see the point?

Oh yes... and I do apologise - that came across as pedantically pompous! It's just that Literature is my interest, and I tend to get a bit carried away.

[BGD]

Gwendolyn - 2011-03-13 11:55 PM

 

BGD - 2011-03-13 10:16 PM

 

Have you genuinely not even grasped the nature of, and overwhelming size of, the private sector tax-payer funding problem for all your public sector pension benefits Rob?

 

40 odd years ago, upon graduating, I chose to teach. So do you want me to give up my pension, perhaps to you personally? Will that solve the problem? Am I to blame?

Service to the community is something one does if one has the service ethic; now retired, I still do voluntary work. That is the ethic of public sector workers.

Tell me where I have gone wrong. How have I caused the problem?

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Gwendolyn - it matters not whose "fault" it is. I have not apportioned blame, so far as I can tell from re-reading my earlier post....except indirectly upon those politicians who have allowed the Public Sector to simply grow and grow without any thought as to the long-term funding.

I have simply stated fact. We are where we are.

 

The continued "promise" of a the historical gold-plated standard of final-salary Public Sector pension, based not upon investment, not or investment return, but purely upon an assumption about how much tax can be taken from the wealth-creating Private Sector with which to pay it continuously once that employee stops work, is patently unsustainable.

 

There are, compared to the actuarial forecasts done 60/70 years ago when such un-funded schemes were introduced, frankly, far too many Public Sector employees, building up too great a pension "promise" on top of too many already-retired Public Sector employees living for too long in retirement. No-one then perceived that the size of the spend would grow so massively that it overwhelm the size of the tax-take.

But it has.

Were you aware that now, on average, more than 25% of TOTAL Local Govt Community Charge tax goes JUST on paying the pensions of their ex-Local Government employees?

 

I don't think any rational person would disagree that this un-funded, Final Salary pensions situation for Public Sector employees has got be be dramatically curtailed, when it is going bust anyway; and those who actually pay for it are the private Sector Companies and workers who are seeing their own pension pots taxed out of existence, are seeing the last of their Final Salary schemes closed down; and are paying more and more tax so that the PS can feather their pension beds.

 

Add to that already dire situation, a massive demographic change looming over the UK: The "baby boom" means that by 2030 there will be 34% MORE pensioners than now, whilst the projected increase in employees is only 14%, and half of those are projected to be yet more Public Sector employees.

So, 7% more Private sector employees, having to fund 7% more Public Sector employees, plus 34% more pensioners.....each of whom will on because of longevity gains, on average live 10 or so years longer than pensioners in retirement at the moment.

 

 

We have to face up to this reality. Now. It ain't going away.

 

We have to figure out some way of getting out of the economic black hole that we have collectively fallen in to with regard to the cost of the Public Sector, and their pensions in particular.....and that is what the Hutton Report has done.

 

It's complicated reading, but I commend it to anyone who has yet to see the utterly towering, enormous elephant in the room that is the UK economy.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Gwendolyn - 2011-03-14 4:04 PM ............. It's just that Literature is my interest, and I tend to get a bit carried away.

  Really?  There's surprising!  :-D

[antony1969]

Bruce , you could argue the case for change till the fairies come home but reality does not hit some folk . There will have to be big changes in this country to try to overcome the blindfold policy of last government . Public sector cuts wether it pensions or spending are going to happen and I for one am glad . Too much dead wood in pointless public sector jobs . Im struggling and everybody at my level who I talk to is struggling so why should those in the public sector be in different .

[robkilby]

BGD - 2011-03-13 10:16 PM

 

Have you genuinely not even grasped the nature of, and overwhelming size of, the private sector tax-payer funding problem for all your public sector pension benefits Rob?

 

No.Hence my post.

Please substantiate your claim

[Guest Tracker]

When people tell me that they have been employed in 'public service' all their working lives and that they are 'entitled' to their pension - I then stick my head above the parapet and suggest that they really remained in 'public service' not because they are public spirited but because the pay is good, the pension is good, the job secure, the holidays generous.

 

I am delighted that we have such public spirited public service employees and I don't begrudge them their pension and perks - but why the heck shoul I pay for it as well as paying for my own pension and paying thgeir salaries as well?

 

Come on public service people - be public spirited - accept there is a severe pension under funding - if fact it really is a no pension funding at all - crisis!

[robkilby]

Tracker - 2011-03-14 8:32 PM

 

When people tell me that they have been employed in 'public service' all their working lives and that they are 'entitled' to their pension - I then stick my head above the parapet and suggest that they really remained in 'public service' not because they are public spirited but because the pay is good, the pension is good, the job secure, the holidays generous.

 

I am delighted that we have such public spirited public service employees and I don't begrudge them their pension and perks - but why the heck shoul I pay for it as well as paying for my own pension and paying thgeir salaries as well?

 

Come on public service people - be public spirited - accept there is a severe pension under funding - if fact it really is a no pension funding at all - crisis!

 

Do you say all this to the nurse in the hopital, the firefighter who saves your life and the loolypop person helping the kids across the road ?

 

Please tell me what exactlt this " crisis" is ?

[Guest pelmetman]

robkilby - 2011-03-14 9:18 PM

 

Please tell me what exactlt this " crisis" is ?

 

There aint no money left :D

[BGD]

robkilby - 2011-03-14 8:22 PM

 

BGD - 2011-03-13 10:16 PM

 

Have you genuinely not even grasped the nature of, and overwhelming size of, the private sector tax-payer funding problem for all your public sector pension benefits Rob?

 

No.Hence my post.

Please substantiate your claim

 

 

 

 

Hi Rob -

 

Please see my post above in reply to Gwen.

 

Q.E.D.

 

[CliveH]

Rob - You may like to read:-

 

http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2011/03/future-public-sector-pension-costs-hugely-underestimated/

 

And please note that whilst it is not the "coal face" or "sharp end" public sector workers that we in the Private Sector have an issue with, - this article does point out the unfairness of how the Public Sector introduce rules on pensions that impact the Private Sector but the Public Sector rule makers make sure these rules do not apply to them.

 

The first and obvious one is that without any funding, the Public Sector pensions cannot be adversely affected by a tax on the growth within such a fund. Thus only the Private Sector funded pensions are adversely affected by this ruling (plus some Local Authority pensions that do have a funded element)

 

Secondly, the Civil Servants introduced a "Lifetime Allowance" (LTA) for pensions and that is currently a whopping Cash Equivalent Value of £1.8M and will drop to £1.5M come April 6th this year.

 

Whilst I REALLY DO WISH my pension pot was anything close! :-D - Do please note that the Civil Servants that introduced this rule slipped in the caveat that this LTA did NOT apply to Public sector pensions.

 

So in the Private Sector, if your pension pot has a Cash Equivalent Value of £2M when you retire after April 6th then the excess over and above the then £1.5M is taxed at 55% via a "Recovery Tax".

 

In contrast - as Ros Altman in the above article points out:-

.........................

 

‘Spending on public sector pensions is already being overshot... There’s an air of unreality about the assumptions of costs being made.’

 

Altman also said that public sector employees were often not aware of the value of their pensions. Replicating public sector pensions schemes in the private sector, meant additional costs of 30-50% on top of an individual’s salary, she said.

 

It emerged during the session that Cabinet Secretary Sir Gus O’Donnell is in line for a pension of £100-£105,000 a year when he retires, which has a total market value of more than £4m.

..........................

 

YES - I do believe there is an air of unreality - the PCS union website demonstrates that really rather well! (lol)

 

But just as important in explaining the anger of many in the Private Sector about how rules are made by some such that those rules do NOT apply to the rule makers is that fact that Sir Gus O'Donnell has a pension pot paid for by our taxes that has a Cash Equivalent Value £4MILLION!

 

But because he is in the Public Sector, the rules to not apply to his pension. So whereas if he had that sort of pension "pot" (I WISH!!! :-S ) in the Private Sector, he would pay 55% recovery tax on £4M-£1.5M= £2.5M - which is a whopping £1.375M in tax!!! 8-) - as a civil servant he pays no Pension Recovery Tax at all - his scheme is exempt from that rule! he just receives his mega pension for the rest of his life paid for by all us tax payers.

 

Nice work if you can get it.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Makes me glad I decided to semi retire :D ............My ambition now is to try to remain tax neutral for the rest of my days B-) ..................I reckon I've paid enough ;-)

 

 

I'm going to follow Sir Gus O'Donnell's example and look after No 1 >:-)

[BGD]

pelmetman - 2011-03-15 8:54 AM

 

Makes me glad I decided to semi retire :D ............My ambition now is to try to remain tax neutral for the rest of my days B-) ..................I reckon I've paid enough ;-)

 

 

I'm going to follow Sir Gus O'Donnell's example and look after No 1 >:-)

 

 

 

Good luck with that ambition.

 

So, you'll not be buying any petrol of diesel then (import duty, fuel tax, VAT), nor any clothes (VAT) nor any food (VAT), nor any beer or wine or spirits (alcohol tax, plus VAT) nor any items for your house (VAT) nor owning any vehicle (Road Fund Licence), nor being paid any pension (Income tax), nor receiving any money from any sort of savings (income tax at source), nor having any vehicle serviced (VAT) nor buying any spares of service items (VAT), nor travelling abroad (airport tax, flight tax)..........etc etc etc etc.

 

 

 

It's worth remembering that on average ONLY about HALF of what people get taxed happens in the form of "direct tax" (ie taxes on your income).

 

The other half of what the Government takes from you, is called "indirect tax" (that it taxes on things that you buy with what's left of your money after they taxed you on it before you even recieved it in the first place).

 

All that is taken from you, by both routes, goes to pay for the Public Sector. But of course even all that is no longer enough any more; as the costs of the Public Sector have exploded. For over a decade now the Government has to borrow money by issuing Bonds to the international financial markets....basically fixed term loans with fixed interest payable when the Govt repays that borrowing, they are "IOU's".

 

Contrary to popular belief, it is THAT Trillions of pounds "national" (Government) debt that has caused the UK economy to implode, NOT the banking bad-debt problem which has been very expertly "spun" as the cause. Something over 14% of UK total GDP now goes each month on just paying the interest on the loans that the Government has previously taken out to keep the Public Sector staggering along.

And that has to continue, indeed increase, in the years and decades ahead, because those Bonds must be repaid. And the only way to raise the money to make the repayments is by...........further increasing taxes.

 

 

 

All in all, I have a smidge of doubt about whether you'll succeed in that "tax neutral" objective.....

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

You are of course right about VAT etc.

 

I was refering to direct tax, ie income tax :D

 

I've got to start some where (lol)

 

As for indirect tax....... I worship the God of thrift (lol) (lol) and only spend when cornered, last year I splashed out abit on clothes as we had a wedding...........£25 (lol)

[malc d]

robkilby - 2011-03-14 9:18 PM

 

Tracker - 2011-03-14 8:32 PM

 

When people tell me that they have been employed in 'public service' all their working lives and that they are 'entitled' to their pension - I then stick my head above the parapet and suggest that they really remained in 'public service' not because they are public spirited but because the pay is good, the pension is good, the job secure, the holidays generous.

 

I am delighted that we have such public spirited public service employees and I don't begrudge them their pension and perks - but why the heck shoul I pay for it as well as paying for my own pension and paying thgeir salaries as well?

 

Come on public service people - be public spirited - accept there is a severe pension under funding - if fact it really is a no pension funding at all - crisis!

 

Do you say all this to the nurse in the hopital, the firefighter who saves your life and the loolypop person helping the kids across the road ?

 

Please tell me what exactlt this " crisis" is ?

 

 

Rob

 

The 'crisis' is that people are living a lot longer than they used to. It is predicted that in future ( if not now) some will spend as much as 40 % of their lives in retirement.

 

There will not be enough money paid in taxes to support that situation.

 

Private sector pensions have been changed to reflect that position, and now it's been concluded that it's time for the public sector to do the same.

 

Even if you are one of our wonderful nurses or dedicated teachers, if there ain't no money then there ain't no money !

 

And remember that the man who has come to these conclusions, Hutton, is an ex Labour minister.

 

 

:-(

[CliveH]

malc d - 2011-03-15 11:07 AM

 

robkilby - 2011-03-14 9:18 PM

 

Tracker - 2011-03-14 8:32 PM

 

When people tell me that they have been employed in 'public service' all their working lives and that they are 'entitled' to their pension - I then stick my head above the parapet and suggest that they really remained in 'public service' not because they are public spirited but because the pay is good, the pension is good, the job secure, the holidays generous.

 

I am delighted that we have such public spirited public service employees and I don't begrudge them their pension and perks - but why the heck shoul I pay for it as well as paying for my own pension and paying thgeir salaries as well?

 

Come on public service people - be public spirited - accept there is a severe pension under funding - if fact it really is a no pension funding at all - crisis!

 

Do you say all this to the nurse in the hopital, the firefighter who saves your life and the loolypop person helping the kids across the road ?

 

Please tell me what exactlt this " crisis" is ?

 

 

Rob

 

The 'crisis' is that people are living a lot longer than they used to. It is predicted that in future ( if not now) some will spend as much as 40 % of their lives in retirement.

 

There will not be enough money paid in taxes to support that situation.

 

Private sector pensions have been changed to reflect that position, and now it's been concluded that it's time for the public sector to do the same.

 

Even if you are one of our wonderful nurses or dedicated teachers, if there ain't no money then there ain't no money !

 

And remember that the man who has come to these conclusions, Hutton, is an ex Labour minister.

 

 

:-(

 

It is worth noting too Rob that the main change to average earnings rather than Final Salary earnings will make very little difference to those at the sharp end - the Teachers, the Nurses, the Fire-fighters etc that you mention.

 

BUT - it will make a huge difference to those in the Public sector that are able to play the final salary game whereby they have their salary hiked up dramatically by things like the every seven year "Service awards" in the NHS etc.

 

[robkilby]

malc d - 2011-03-15 11:07 AM

 

robkilby - 2011-03-14 9:18 PM

 

Tracker - 2011-03-14 8:32 PM

 

When people tell me that they have been employed in 'public service' all their working lives and that they are 'entitled' to their pension - I then stick my head above the parapet and suggest that they really remained in 'public service' not because they are public spirited but because the pay is good, the pension is good, the job secure, the holidays generous.

 

I am delighted that we have such public spirited public service employees and I don't begrudge them their pension and perks - but why the heck shoul I pay for it as well as paying for my own pension and paying thgeir salaries as well?

 

Come on public service people - be public spirited - accept there is a severe pension under funding - if fact it really is a no pension funding at all - crisis!

 

Do you say all this to the nurse in the hopital, the firefighter who saves your life and the loolypop person helping the kids across the road ?

 

Please tell me what exactlt this " crisis" is ?

 

 

Rob

 

The 'crisis' is that people are living a lot longer than they used to. It is predicted that in future ( if not now) some will spend as much as 40 % of their lives in retirement.

 

There will not be enough money paid in taxes to support that situation.

 

Private sector pensions have been changed to reflect that position, and now it's been concluded that it's time for the public sector to do the same.

 

Even if you are one of our wonderful nurses or dedicated teachers, if there ain't no money then there ain't no money !

 

And remember that the man who has come to these conclusions, Hutton, is an ex Labour minister.

 

 

:-(

 

Not quite what the report says.

The fact that Hutton says it, and that he was /is Labour proves nothing

Don'tjust swallow the lies and hype of the bosses

It is not a" crisis" that we are living longer ( and public sector workers live longer than priavte sector)

Saying there is "no money " just devalues your argument. There is money..it is a politcial choice how it is raised and spent

[Guest Tracker]

robkilby - 2011-03-16 8:03 PM

Not quite what the report says.

The fact that Hutton says it, and that he was /is Labour proves nothing

Don'tjust swallow the lies and hype of the bosses

It is not a" crisis" that we are living longer ( and public sector workers live longer than priavte sector)

Saying there is "no money " just devalues your argument. There is money..it is a politcial choice how it is raised and spent

 

As one who does not benefit from any public sector pension - but my wife does - I can see this from both sides and I have to say that in my view for you to say that there is no pensions funding crisis is either deliberate 'blind ness' or hypocrisy or self interest of the highest order.

 

I am not saying you should have less pension - all I am asking is that you do what we all in the private and self employed sector had to do and pay a realistic contribution for your own pension. Is that so unreasonable?

 

It probably is unreasonable to the unions but then again there are no bigger turkeys than union chiefs and they won't vote for Christmas because they might end up getting stuffed for a change instead of stuffing the rest of us!

[malc d]

robkilby - 2011-03-16 8:03 PM

 

malc d - 2011-03-15 11:07 AM

 

robkilby - 2011-03-14 9:18 PM

 

Tracker - 2011-03-14 8:32 PM

 

When people tell me that they have been employed in 'public service' all their working lives and that they are 'entitled' to their pension - I then stick my head above the parapet and suggest that they really remained in 'public service' not because they are public spirited but because the pay is good, the pension is good, the job secure, the holidays generous.

 

I am delighted that we have such public spirited public service employees and I don't begrudge them their pension and perks - but why the heck shoul I pay for it as well as paying for my own pension and paying thgeir salaries as well?

 

Come on public service people - be public spirited - accept there is a severe pension under funding - if fact it really is a no pension funding at all - crisis!

 

Do you say all this to the nurse in the hopital, the firefighter who saves your life and the loolypop person helping the kids across the road ?

 

Please tell me what exactlt this " crisis" is ?

 

 

Rob

 

The 'crisis' is that people are living a lot longer than they used to. It is predicted that in future ( if not now) some will spend as much as 40 % of their lives in retirement.

 

There will not be enough money paid in taxes to support that situation.

 

Private sector pensions have been changed to reflect that position, and now it's been concluded that it's time for the public sector to do the same.

 

Even if you are one of our wonderful nurses or dedicated teachers, if there ain't no money then there ain't no money !

 

And remember that the man who has come to these conclusions, Hutton, is an ex Labour minister.

 

 

:-(

 

Not quite what the report says.

The fact that Hutton says it, and that he was /is Labour proves nothing

Don'tjust swallow the lies and hype of the bosses

It is not a" crisis" that we are living longer ( and public sector workers live longer than priavte sector)

Saying there is "no money " just devalues your argument. There is money..it is a politcial choice how it is raised and spent

 

 

I'm going to agree with you.

 

It's true that the " crisis " is not that we are living longer, that's why I used the quote marks.

But, when planned, the current pension systems ( final salary ) did not envisage that we would all be living so much longer.

If and when we do all spend nearly half our lives in retirement, there will be a funding crisis under the current system.

 

You say " there IS money " - and I agree with that.

There is money NOW, and that is why everyone is currently getting paid their pensions.

 

But, it is predicted that in the future there will not be enough money.

 

I have not swallowed any "hype and lies " from the bosses, because I haven't listened to any, and have no idea what they have been saying.

 

As I have not heard from anyone where the funding of the pensions would come from in the future, if we keep the current system, I have just come to the conclusion myself that there is going to be a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

[CliveH]

robkilby - 2011-03-16 8:03 PM

 

malc d - 2011-03-15 11:07 AM

 

robkilby - 2011-03-14 9:18 PM

 

Tracker - 2011-03-14 8:32 PM

 

When people tell me that they have been employed in 'public service' all their working lives and that they are 'entitled' to their pension - I then stick my head above the parapet and suggest that they really remained in 'public service' not because they are public spirited but because the pay is good, the pension is good, the job secure, the holidays generous.

 

I am delighted that we have such public spirited public service employees and I don't begrudge them their pension and perks - but why the heck shoul I pay for it as well as paying for my own pension and paying thgeir salaries as well?

 

Come on public service people - be public spirited - accept there is a severe pension under funding - if fact it really is a no pension funding at all - crisis!

 

Do you say all this to the nurse in the hopital, the firefighter who saves your life and the loolypop person helping the kids across the road ?

 

Please tell me what exactlt this " crisis" is ?

 

 

Rob

 

The 'crisis' is that people are living a lot longer than they used to. It is predicted that in future ( if not now) some will spend as much as 40 % of their lives in retirement.

 

There will not be enough money paid in taxes to support that situation.

 

Private sector pensions have been changed to reflect that position, and now it's been concluded that it's time for the public sector to do the same.

 

Even if you are one of our wonderful nurses or dedicated teachers, if there ain't no money then there ain't no money !

 

And remember that the man who has come to these conclusions, Hutton, is an ex Labour minister.

 

 

:-(

 

Not quite what the report says.

The fact that Hutton says it, and that he was /is Labour proves nothing

Don'tjust swallow the lies and hype of the bosses

It is not a" crisis" that we are living longer ( and public sector workers live longer than priavte sector)

Saying there is "no money " just devalues your argument. There is money..it is a politcial choice how it is raised and spent

 

Yes I suppose it is political. I am prepared to make sure that what went before is changed. If that makes me a political “activist” in some way – then I am happy to be labelled as such. I am not a “Boss” but I see those that label others as such as being those MOST out of touch.

 

I object to how much of the money spent on the Public sector is raised from taxes and spent with little regard to value. I object also to how much of it is spent on numpty projects by muppets who would not know a spread sheet and a profit and loss account from Hills and Boon novel. This is not a silly off the wall accusation but a real analysis based upon my observations over many years.

 

That is why I will fight with all my power to make sure that MY tax £ is not wasted. It has gone on too long and need top stop. In the boom years we could grumble and say “something should be done” but when the $hit hits the fan economically it is morally incomprehensible for the Public Sector to plead and winge and whine that they be allowed to carry on as before.

 

And if that means that the unions that publish the ridiculous nonsense referred to earlier are going to get a hard ride from those of us that foot the bills then they had seriously get better prepared than they seem to be at present.

 

And in getting prepared - I sincerely hope that they see the reality that they seem oblivious of. If they think the rest of the country is going to allow them to dictate that we have to incur ever increasing costs to keep their members in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed - then they are very much mistaken.

 

Seriously – get real – you really REALLY need to do this.

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Sorry Rob dont agree :D

 

My view is based on my own experiences, coming from a family that has been self employed for generations ;-)

 

As a kid I witnessed the shear hardwork of employing staff in the 70's, my old man seem to be part boss, part social worker and at times part referee 8-)Not to mention the steady increase in bereaucracy invented by the Public sector!

 

It helped me decide not to join the family business and get a normal job, which is why I spent 10 years in the Navy. Eventually I became self employed as I realised it is in the blood :D

 

Even so running your own business in the UK is no bed of roses, As you are nothing more than a Public sector meal ticket >:-( Their not content with just bleeding us dry, but seem to find any excuse to foist another numpty regulation on us, whether its from Brussels or our own home grown idiots, it all adds to the hassle of running a business.

 

Fortunately I dont bother with employing staff or trying to earn more than I need B-)

[CliveH]

pelmetman - 2011-03-17 9:29 AM

 

Sorry Rob dont agree :D

 

My view is based on my own experiences, coming from a family that has been self employed for generations ;-)

 

As a kid I witnessed the shear hardwork of employing staff in the 70's, my old man seem to be part boss, part social worker and at times part referee 8-)Not to mention the steady increase in bereaucracy invented by the Public sector!

 

It helped me decide not to join the family business and get a normal job, which is why I spent 10 years in the Navy. Eventually I became self employed as I realised it is in the blood :D

 

Even so running your own business in the UK is no bed of roses, As you are nothing more than a Public sector meal ticket >:-( Their not content with just bleeding us dry, but seem to find any excuse to foist another numpty regulation on us, whether its from Brussels or our own home grown idiots, it all adds to the hassle of running a business.

 

Fortunately I dont bother with employing staff or trying to earn more than I need B-)

 

Dave – this is a very sensible strategy that a lot of “small” businesses have had to adopt due to increasing regulation and interference from the rule makers who are of course, the Public Sector.

 

So from a micro economic viewpoint – what you are doing is absolutely correct. But from the Macro economic viewpoint, we are in danger of going down the road that Greece has trod with all the difficulties they now suffer.

 

Greece has a huge Public Sector and a Private Sector that was so squeezed that it effectively went into subsistence mode and developed a thriving black economy whereby bartering and cash became the norm rather than any form of financial transaction that produced an audit trail that lead to taxation.

 

The result was huge borrowing to keep the Public Sector working and the wheels of “Government” turning, but of course – this all went pear shaped when the debts became too large and the interest payments unpayable.

The worry is that whilst you are entirely correct to do exactly as you are doing and I would advise you to continue if this strategy works for you, it does mean that, you, like a lot of others are beginning to ask why should I pay tax to support “others” when those “others” do naff all to support your business?

 

The huge issue that stalks this country is our small businesses going to cash and bartering and the large companies upping sticks and going elsewhere just as manufacturing has done because they can be more effective elsewhere.

 

If the Public Sector thinks that the issue is simply a political one and get another party in of a different colour and the problem will go away then they are very much mistaken.

 

[malc d]

Although I agree with both CliveH and Pelmetman I'm afraid that this problem is coming across in their arguments as simply the 'taxpayers' versus the public sector pensions ( and numpties).

The thread ( and the 'crisis') is really about public sector pensions and how to pay for them in the future.

 

I am assuming that Rob is also a taxpayer, so what levels of tax is HE prepared to pay to support their current pension system in the future ?

 

How about 50% VAT and income tax for all at 75 pence in the pound ?

 

(We could also stick some more tax on fuel).

 

That should do it. Problem solved.

 

 

(lol)

[Guest pelmetman]

CliveH - 2011-03-17 10:12 AM

 

The huge issue that stalks this country is our small businesses going to cash and bartering and the large companies upping sticks and going elsewhere just as manufacturing has done because they can be more effective elsewhere.

 

 

I dont doubt your right Clive, but will our lordships read the writing on the wall, I hear DC bumping his gums and saying all the right words about SME's, but I seem to recall hearing the same from Gordon Brown, whist at the same time having his fingers in our pension pots *-) One of the reasons why I stopped paying into mine!

 

Cash, I reckon more and more people will start dealing in it >:-) ...Unfortunately as I supply the trade with my pelmets and the poufes via the internet, cash never cross's my greasy palm :D

 

As for the them & us mentality, I only developed the condition after my tax investigation (lol) Maybe the IR should change its working practices *-) As from my experience they do more damage than good 8-)