paulmold Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I've just booked a mobile engineer to come to the house next week to do a habitation sevice for a quoted price of £65. Having seen the recent thread on here regarding the prices of such a service, I'll be interested in the quality of service and I'll let you know the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 If it is a "service" that sounds good value for money depending exactly what his service is, if it's a "check" I'll do it for £50 :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmold Posted March 29, 2011 Author Share Posted March 29, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-03-29 4:11 PM If it is a "service" that sounds good value for money depending exactly what his service is, if it's a "check" I'll do it for £50 :-D I know one of my hob burners isn't burning correctly and I replaced my blown-air heater myself so I want a gas check more than anything else but I shall see what he checks and what he services and post the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 paulmold - 2011-03-29 5:55 PM 1footinthegrave - 2011-03-29 4:11 PM If it is a "service" that sounds good value for money depending exactly what his service is, if it's a "check" I'll do it for £50 :-D I know one of my hob burners isn't burning correctly and I replaced my blown-air heater myself so I want a gas check more than anything else but I shall see what he checks and what he services and post the results.If you only want a gas check, buy a manometer and save £50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I am sure we have been through this before and concluded that working on any gas installation is illegal, unless you are qualified. And that includes if its your own house / caravan etc. You can attempt to interprit the regs as long as you like but there are no get out clauses IMO. Buying a manometer is all well and good but you have to be qualified to interprit the results and detrmining test period permitted pressure drop if any etc etc etc As for servicing there is the correct airation settings, flame picture etc also some areas of the installation / appliances could have a gas leak during use which wont show up on a soundness test. Ambient CO & CO2 tests following an appliance service is for some installations a legal requirement . Doing a DIY hab service is one thing but suggesting an unqualified person obtains a manometer to save £50 is IMO very poor advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 It would be interesting to know how many forum members have bought and fitted their own re-fillable gas systems, and got them checked for compliance afterwards. And what about every time we change our Calor cylinders do we need to get that done by a qualified gas fitter. I have a Gaslow gauge that is touted by them to give an indication of leaks, no mention that it needs to be fitted or the results interpreted by a qualified person though. I'm not advocating that all regulations be ignored, just making the comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yes valid points, Changing a gas cylinder is not considered to be "Gas work" as far as I am aware. As for the guage that gives an "indication" of a gas leak then IMO the clue is in the wording it gives an "indication" that you may not have tightened the bottle properly (for instance) it does not state that by having a guage in any way negates the need for an annual gas check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 UPDATE Well it seems that as far as the "gas industry unsafe situations proceedure" is concerned then "Technical bulletin 063" dated April 2009 states that the GIUSP does not relate to touring caravans "for private use only". Weather or not this meens that it is legal to carry out gas work on your own van is a matter of opinion and I would still argue that some other HSE or Gas reg would cover this scenario. As is the case with a lot of gas industry regs they are sometimes open to interpretation. I still stand by the fact that working on any gas installation should be left to a qualified engineer regardless of the legalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 The specific Gaslow gauge that I have got in some ways is better than an annual test as far as leaks go as you can continuously check that you do not have a fall in pressure every time you use the van. To be honest mine and many others experience of "professional" services leaves a lot to be desired, I could write a book, as could no doubt many others. I really feel that it comes down to someone's practical ability,and an eye for detail, oh well, just my view.............. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger s Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I suppose our cylinders / systems come under the "Pressure Systems and Transportable Gas Containers Act" if you care for some "light" reading for possible clarification. I cant remember the current approval scheme but the old one was Corgi and if the person was qualified to work on your house gas system it didnt mean (according to those involved) they could workm on our mobile systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Gas Safe has replaced Corgi. Someone who is certified to work on mains gas is not automatically certified to work on LPG gas appliances, be they in the home or elsewhere as far as I'm aware. As for professionals .. it was a professional who installed the gas BBQ point in my Rapido 709F in 2003 .. that was before the '5ft blow-torch' incident when one of the joints came apart as it hadn't been done correctly and the whole installation had to be ripped out and replaced with a proper installation on the instruction of the gas inspector! I'm not saying in any way that all professionals are no good, far from it, but with all professions there will always be some bad-uns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 ips - 2011-03-30 11:48 AM I am sure we have been through this before and concluded that working on any gas installation is illegal, unless you are qualified. And that includes if its your own house / caravan etc. You can attempt to interprit the regs as long as you like but there are no get out clauses IMO. Buying a manometer is all well and good but you have to be qualified to interprit the results and detrmining test period permitted pressure drop if any etc etc etc As for servicing there is the correct airation settings, flame picture etc also some areas of the installation / appliances could have a gas leak during use which wont show up on a soundness test. Ambient CO & CO2 tests following an appliance service is for some installations a legal requirement . Doing a DIY hab service is one thing but suggesting an unqualified person obtains a manometer to save £50 is IMO very poor advice.Not correct. Caravans and motorhomes and boats do not come within the regulations. Plus anyone with half a brain can read the instructions that come with the instrument, it is after all nothing but a bent piece ot plastic or glass tube with liquid in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 ips - 2011-03-30 1:13 PM UPDATE Well it seems that as far as the "gas industry unsafe situations proceedure" is concerned then "Technical bulletin 063" dated April 2009 states that the GIUSP does not relate to touring caravans "for private use only". Weather or not this meens that it is legal to carry out gas work on your own van is a matter of opinion and I would still argue that some other HSE or Gas reg would cover this scenario. As is the case with a lot of gas industry regs they are sometimes open to interpretation. I still stand by the fact that working on any gas installation should be left to a qualified engineer regardless of the legalities.Are you by any chance a Gas Fitter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Mel B - 2011-03-30 5:15 PM Gas Safe has replaced Corgi. Someone who is certified to work on mains gas is not automatically certified to work on LPG gas appliances, be they in the home or elsewhere as far as I'm aware. As for professionals .. it was a professional who installed the gas BBQ point in my Rapido 709F in 2003 .. that was before the '5ft blow-torch' incident when one of the joints came apart as it hadn't been done correctly and the whole installation had to be ripped out and replaced with a proper installation on the instruction of the gas inspector! I'm not saying in any way that all professionals are no good, far from it, but with all professions there will always be some bad-uns.And by the same token Mel, there can be a lot of very good amateurs with the ability. Plus with the internet, anybody can find out the regulations. Not to mention the correct procedures and pitfalls of DIY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Er .... yes I am actually, and my company is gas safe reg. We do commercial work including LPG. The gas regs have always been open to interpretation, some areas more than others. The Lpg regs concerning caravans/mobiles is a specific element within the certification scheme and as is the case with all areas of gas work only engineers with the specific training can legaly work on this type of installation. I do not agree with your "any idiot can do it, its only a piece of bent plastic" the gas regs are a mine field and there is a lot more to it than a lay man would think. By the very fact that its difficult to conclude if its legal to work on your own van is proof of the compexities of the regs. Not only do we work to gas regulations but there are H&S, factorys act, RIDDOR, and of course the relevent BS. If anyone thinks that gas work is easy then try and sit the 5 yearly exam which lasts 4-5 days covers hundreds and hundres of questions including a practical and the pass criteria is 100% or your out. As for the practical part of carrying out certain gas tests as stated earlier some components within an appliance could have a gas leak only when the appliance is working therefore a soundness test would not show it, also certain other tests like Flame failiure/proving devices need checking. And then there is ensuring that the flame is burning correctly and possibly carrying out CO CO2 checks. It seems to me that if carrying out gas work on your own van is acceptable then its legal to kill your wife and children by faulty gas work but not legal to kill someone who hires your van for the weekend. This scenario should be enough to stop anyone carrying out such work and I still beleive that it may not be covered by GIUSP but I am sure that its covered by at least one other regulation somewere not least the legal and moral requirement of us all not to endanger life by incompetence. Only someone with no understanding at all of gas would would make some of the comments that you have and advise the internet as a source of gaining the relevent practical knowledge, its quite ridiculous. And as for finding the regs online you may be lucky in finding the odd one but who is to say that its up to date and theres no way you would find an up to date BS as they cost a fortune and we have to buy a new one everytime they are updated copyright is also stringently observed. The public (at least some) do not seem to understand the cost and the time involved in gaining and maintaining gas certification. And some seem to think its a doddle, so tell me if gas work is so easy that anyone with half a brain can do it after 5 mins on the internet then that would indicate that there is little risk involved either so why then are the legalities of gas work enforced so very strongly even to the degree that you not only have to be qualified in gas work but in the specific area of gas work that you intend to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 UPDATE 2 My apologies, after further investigation GSIUR tech bulletin 63 was updated August 2010 (point proven regarding continual updates of regs etc) Still reads the same as far as our topic is concerned but that just meens that working on your own van is not covered within the scope of this particular paper/reg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 AFAIA the introduction of the new(ish) regulations regarding houses, applies to both Gas & Electrical INSTALLATIONS. As I understand the Regulations, although intended to stop DIY installations it specifically does NOT. But any work carried out MUST be Certified by an Registered Engineer. The Gas fitter who recently fitted our new Boiler, tried to tell me that our Gas Hob was illegal because it had a flexible pipe to the wall mounted Gas Point (installed post introduction of the new regulations) & that as he had disconnected the Gas, fitted a new section of the supply pipe to the Boiler, he would have to issue a "Prohibition of Us" Notice. So much for his expert knowledge (!) (!) (!) The Gas Hob is fitted to a special Rise & Fall Work Table for my disabled wife to use in her wheelchair, so obviously if a Fixed pipe was installed the Table would fracture it when operating the Rise or Fall. He remained adamant until I produced the Certification for the Worktable Gas & Electrical Installation & Tests. IMO like a high proportion of recent Regulations & Legislation,knee-jerk reaction, ill concieved, poorly defined & confusion reigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I don't know why IPS bothered posting at all. As most of what he has ranted on about is totally irrelevant to Motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I love all this stuff, as I sit here in my high viz coat, hard hat, eye and ear defenders in place just in the event that I could be breaking some regulation or other. I'm just waiting for regulations to come in that insist on a qualified engineer needing to check a qualified engineers work. And Peter you should be used to irrelevancies on these forums by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I do all my own gas work including the house I prefer to trust my own level of work from what I have seen it is to a higher standard than the so called professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 peter - 2011-03-31 11:26 PM I don't know why IPS bothered posting at all. As most of what he has ranted on about is totally irrelevant to Motorhomes. I think you are being a bit unfair Peter, ips is just giving his view, based on his experience and knowledge, which I have found very interesting. I wouldn't call it a rant. As for anyone thinking they can do gas work to the same standard as a very competent fully trained and certified gas engineer/technician, I think that is very misguided. There are limited things I would do, such as installing my Gaslow system, but I certainly would no do anything else on my motorhome or home. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Well I hope some of it was relevent.!!! Us Gas operatives are legaly obliged to follow regs to the letter and maybe I did become a bit pedantic, however my intentions were only to convey my worries that some less competent than Peter would be compelled to carry out gas work beyond there capabilities and potentially endanger themeselves and or others. Mel for one seems to have understood that. With regards to Flickas case, his well meaning engineer seems to have come up against a particularily specialist bit of kit (I no nothing of it either) so in his defence he was merely interpreting the regs and the installation as he saw it which was absolutely the correct thing to do. Gas safe and H&SE would rather us air on the cautious than to assume its correct and let it go. As I stated earlier you would not beleive how complex the gas regs are if you work proffesionally which flickas engineer obviously does. I think that some people watch to many rogues trader episodes, cowboy gas engineers are very very rare due to the extremely tight and stringent certification criteria. Ask to see an engineers "operatves card" and you are pretty much guaranteed to get a proffesional, the trouble is sometimes we cant ltell you what you want to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timetraveller Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I'm another defender of 'IPS' I didn't think his post was a rant - rather someone who is passionate about his trade & doesn't want to see anyone making mistakes whilst trying to 'install' or work on their motorhome gas system. Could you really live with yourself if your work was found to be the cause of a loved ones death. I couldn't; that's why I leave it to those who are fully qualified. As for those who mock - sorry I've little time for your posts. I just wish all tradesmen were as passionate & knowlegable as 'IPS' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I accept IPS posts wisely ere on the side of caution & would hope for nothing other from a Qualified Gas Engineer. But I still maintain a high proportion of recent Regulations & Legislation, are :- knee-jerk reactions, ill concieved, poorly defined & therefore the confusion reigns, even amongst those constantly having to revalidate their Trade Qualifications. Personally:- Gas, Plumbing & Plastering leave to the experienced tradesman. Electrically I am proficient (although unqualified) & as I am not being regularly updated with regulation changes, I am fortunate to have my fully qualified B-i-L, who checks, tests & certifies the work, once I have finished an installation. My beef is that, (particularly with our previous) government, took the view that all unqualified DIYers are numbskulls, incapable of performing many simple tasks. IMHO if they had remained in power, we would by now be looking at compulsory annual Vehicle Servicing by Approved Technicians, monthly Tyre Pressure checks by Qualified Tyre Fitters & Homeowners not being allowed to read & submit quarterly Gas & Electric Meter Readings >:-( :D ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Mel B - 2011-04-01 6:24 PM peter - 2011-03-31 11:26 PM I don't know why IPS bothered posting at all. As most of what he has ranted on about is totally irrelevant to Motorhomes. I think you are being a bit unfair Peter, ips is just giving his view, based on his experience and knowledge, which I have found very interesting. I wouldn't call it a rant. As for anyone thinking they can do gas work to the same standard as a very competent fully trained and certified gas engineer/technician, I think that is very misguided. There are limited things I would do, such as installing my Gaslow system, but I certainly would no do anything else on my motorhome or home. :-SI don't think I was being unfair at all Mel. This is what IPS replied in his first post on this thread. Quote. "I am sure we have been through this before and concluded that working on any gas installation is illegal, unless you are qualified. And that includes if its your own house / caravan etc. You can attempt to interprit the regs as long as you like but there are no get out clauses IMO. Buying a manometer is all well and good but you have to be qualified to interprit the results and detrmining test period permitted pressure drop if any etc etc etc As for servicing there is the correct airation settings, flame picture etc also some areas of the installation / appliances could have a gas leak during use which wont show up on a soundness test. Ambient CO & CO2 tests following an appliance service is for some installations a legal requirement . Doing a DIY hab service is one thing but suggesting an unqualified person obtains a manometer to save £50 is IMO very poor advice. Unquote. Which is all totally untrue, as none of the points are legislature aimed at Motorhomes. If an expert Gas Engineer is going to give advice, at least it should be accurate, first time. As for you considering it of little consequence to carry out your own Gaslow installation. Well I think IPS will be having apoplexy. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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