Guest Tracker Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 At present there seem to be four options for diesel fuel for boats and being a simple guy I am confused - can anyone with knowledge of fuely things help clarify please? Old red diesel as it used to be was simply derv (road diesel) with a red dye and everything was simple. Then along came the ever helpful governement, the EU, the tree huggers and climate woe 'experts' and suddenly it has all gone haywire? As I understand it, now there is Gas Oil which is allegedly now low sulphur but still around 90p a litre, red diesel (low suphur + ever increasing amounts of bio diesel) and , red diesel (normal sulphur + no bio) - but only for use on the sea not inland, both of which seem to be around £1.25 a litre, and finally road diesel which is also increasingly lower and lower sulpur as well as increasingly higher and higher bio content and which is now around £1.40 a litre. One problem seems to be that older engines like their fix of sulphur as whilst it is not a lubricant in itself removing it appears to reduce the lubricating properties of the fuel and can damage seals and flexible pipes. I suppose this can always be overcome by using additives - crazy or not? I wonder what defines 'new' ultra low sulphur friendly and an 'old' sulphur needing diesel engine as this aspect might also impact on older Motorhomes? By far the biggest problem with modern diesel is with the bio fuell content which appears to be hydroscopic - in other words it likes to combine with water and emulsify - like with any water or condensation in the fuel tank. This then encourages normally occuring bacteria which are present in bio fuels, but not in hydrocarbon based fuels, to breed and multiply to such a degree that a gloopy syrup can form and fuel lines, pumps, filters, injectors can become blocked causing much gnashing of teeth and BIG bills to rectify. This seems to happen when a tank full of fuel is left standing unused for long periods - like winter lay ups for example - and again is very relevant to motorhomes as well as boats. I wonder how one defines a 'newer' high bio content tolerant engine and system from an 'older' non bio tolerant engine and fuel system? It certainly makes buying an older boat much more of a lottery - but worse - has unpleasant implicatiuons for any users of diesel wher long periods of lay up are involved and I gather that farmers are none too pleased with this improvement in their alleged contribution to pollution and alleged climate change? Progress strikes again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Hi Rich, I think Flicka might be the man to ask, he use to be in the soup industry. Are you bu**ering off? :D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-04-26 3:31 PM Hi Rich, I think Flicka might be the man to ask, he use to be in the soup industry. Are you bu**ering off? :D Dave Me bu@@ering off Dave - you should be so lucky - wishful thinking eh? I'll stay on here if only to irritate the life out of one or two of those that I seem to irritate the life out of just by being alive! You gotta laugh!! We're just looking at broadening our leisure horizons now that updating the bungalow is nearly finished and more or less on budget and we are suddenly threatened with oodles more spare time once more! A boat and a classic car seem favourites right now - but both on a tightish budget as we are only poor old pensioners you know! But the real beauty is that we can do both for far less than the cost of changing the van for one of they unpredictable X250 based thingies!! Saw a lovely Merc SLK convertible today - and at a sensible price too - isn't temptation a wonderful thing - but I do still love Jaguars at heart! Decisions decisons - life is so tough innit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Tracker - 2011-04-26 1:18 PM By far the biggest problem with modern diesel is with the bio fuell content which appears to be hydroscopic - in other words it likes to combine with water and emulsify - like with any water or condensation in the fuel tank. This then encourages normally occuring bacteria which are present in bio fuels, but not in hydrocarbon based fuels, to breed and multiply to such a degree that a gloopy syrup can form and fuel lines, pumps, filters, injectors can become blocked causing much gnashing of teeth and BIG bills to rectify Both mineral and Bio diesel are hydroscopic to an extent and both can harbour bateria. Bio does NOT emulsify with water readily. Indeed in production water is often used to 'wash' chemicals out of the bio fuel before it is dried and water seperated. The biodiesel also helps act as a lubricant. The problem with older engines is the solvent properties loosening deposits in the fuel system and clogging filters. This is a one off and once clean no further a problem. However there is a proplem with older rubber seals which it will attack and soften if the percentage of bio is too high. Modern engines have seals which are not affected by the bio properties. edit - spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Right, before we go any further with this thread, lets get the terms right. The term hydroscopic must be substituted with Hygroscopic. Hygroscopy is the ability of a substance to attract and hold water molecules from the surrounding environment through either absorption or adsorption with the absorbing or adsorbing material becoming physically 'changed,' somewhat: by an increase in volume, stickiness, or other physical characteristic of the material as water molecules become 'suspended' between the material's molecules in the process. While some similar forces are at work here, it is different from capillary attraction, a process where glass or other 'solid' substances attract water, but are not changed in the process, e.g. water molecules becoming suspended between the glass molecules. Richard can be excused for the error, as we all know he's a bit thick. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Brambles is spot-on, Bio enhanced Diesel (whether Road Diesel(Derv) or Gas Oil (Industrial use) is not Hydroscopic & does not naturally absorb or emulsify with water . The reductions of Sulphur levels since introduction (what was initially - AutoOil 2000) from 1000ppm to the current Ultra-Low Sulphur @ 10ppm, has neccesitated constant development of lubrication additives (Lubricity) As I have said in earlier similar threads, all the major Oil Refiners, in conjunction with the Engine & Fuel Injection Manufacturers have spent (& continue to spent) huge budgets on this R&D annually. There are advocates in the US Fuel industry, who maintain that the BioFuel element actually enhances Lubrication. "Lubricity Benefits Provided by Biodiesel The addition of biodiesel, even in very small quantities, has been shown to provide increases in fuel lubricity using a variety of bench scale test methods. A diagram of the various testing apparatus can be seen in chart provided by Lucas." I am aware of the older Petrol engine seals being affected by MTBE (Methyl_tert-butyl_ether) & TAME (Tertiary_amyl_methyl_ether) which replaced Leaded Petrol., but I am not aware of any conclusive evidence that Bio-Diesel affects the older Diesel engined seals. (but that's not to say it doesn't , as many Engine Manufacturers have determined max % of Bio for their engines) All the "evidence" I have seen against Bio-Diesel is only found on forums, so must (at present) IMO be taken with a big pinch of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Oops Peter, I knew that as well in hindsight, but got caught out with the wrong term being in original post. Very easy mistake to make. (A lot of people do not realise most plastics are also hygroscopic and absorb moisture, especially nylon which expands when wet...reason our ruddy motorhome door hinges keep getting tight and squealing.) Back to Bio Diesel though,I know quite a lot about Bio and its use as I actually produce Bio diesel for my own use....and yes I use it in my Motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Oi Flicka!........... I've told you once already, it's HYGROSCOPIC. If you don't believe me look on Google. What does the term hydroscopic mean? Answer :- The word is misspelled and therefore has no definition. The spelling is hygroscopic. The definition of hygroscopic is: readily taking up and retaining moisture. The definition is from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Some clever dudes on here, I feel quite humbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big olga Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Hi, I found the debate very interesting but it has left me confused. What diesel fuel should I use for"Big Olga" her engine is a MB OM616 non turbo 65 hp 32year old lump! I think the new refined fuel would be wasted on her. Best Wishes Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul- Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Well thats it then, I'm only going to stick to using pump diesel mixed with vegi oil & keep clear of the microscopic baby bio stuff 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Just use pump diesel,it has to meet a european spec' anyway. It is ilegal to use red diesel in a motorhome anyway, so why worry about what's in it. Red diesel's very nearly at the same price as white now, unless you are using it for diesel heating then it is 90p a ltr, of course I only use my boat as a floating flat so only pay for heating diesel. ;-) So you guys with diesel heating in your vans had better fit a seperate small tank to your vans and save money on fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 big olga - 2011-04-27 7:38 PM Hi, I found the debate very interesting but it has left me confused. What diesel fuel should I use for"Big Olga" her engine is a MB OM616 non turbo 65 hp 32year old lump! I think the new refined fuel would be wasted on her. Best Wishes Dave. You do not have much choice, all diesel at the pumps contains bio. (following is copied) Since the introduction of the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO) in April 2008, all transport fuel suppliers have needed to ensure that 5% of road vehicle fuel supplied after 2010 is from sustainable, renewable sources. Therefore in October 2010, in a bid to align manufacturing and retail prices, the UK government removed the subsidy on bio-diesel resulting in an increase of up to 20ppl making the cost for a bio-diesel blend less competitive to its standard counterparts. The Governments success in introducing the RTFO has educated the market and as a result all diesel from refineries now has, as standard, a 7% bio-mix and petrol has up to a 7% bio-ethanol mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Oops, sorry Peter. I have made an appointment at my opticians, then will see the Doc to get my finger problem sorted :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 That's o/k my friend. Just watch it in future or the forum factual correctness police will be after you. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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