antony1969 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Congratulations to the yanks on killing Bin Laden , lets hope those affected by his gutless acts get some joy from the news . Does he now become a bigger figure in death for his twisted supporters to follow I wonder ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Better to have captured him, tried him and locked him up for ever and ever. I know it costs more than killing him, but we all die eventually and giving him a miserable life seems to me a better punishment than sending him to paradise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 spospe - 2011-05-02 10:29 AM Better to have captured him, tried him and locked him up for ever and ever. I know it costs more than killing him, but we all die eventually and giving him a miserable life seems to me a better punishment than sending him to paradise. Surely that would have meant a danger of 'hostages' being kidnapped all over the place to be swapped for him ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Interesting. One large organisation spends years planning, then mounts a precision illegal murderous raid into another sovereign country without permission, deliberately killing a number people in that country in order to pursue its global political agenda. Result? A lot (but not all) of the world condemns this illegal, rogue, multiple murderous act. Lots of talk of the rule of law, of the judiciary, of how the Western "system" is so much better than any other; and how the West (USA) is right to invade and occupy other sovereign countries via superior military force, simply because it's leader(s) don't like their leaders. Lots of cheering as TV footage show "our" side blowing up people from "their" side, wrecking their water supplies, their power supplies, ruining their economies. Then country that (of course) screamed loudest about the illegality, the foulness of such an international murder act, and how they are "better" because they have and adhere to rules of law and judiciary simply ignores all those principles and does exactly the same. It spends years planning, then mounts an illegal murderous raid into another sovereign country, in secret and without permission, deliberately killing a number people in that country in order to pursue its global political agenda. Not entirely sure why we wept at the first internationally illegal murderous act by one organisation, yet should today all without exception jump with joy when we learn of another internationally murderous act by a different organisation...............just because it was committed by "us" on "them". I despaired at the first act. And I think on calm balance that I rather despair at this one too. But I suspect my view will not be the majority one. Which is why I await the next such act, and all the others that will follow, with equal despair, as more humans continue to invade the countries of other humans (either as individuals or in armies) and deliberately kill other humans to propagate what they see as the only "right" way to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francisgraham Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 BGD - 2011-05-02 12:27 PM Interesting. One large organisation spends years planning, then mounts a precision illegal murderous raid into another sovereign country without permission, deliberately killing a number people in that country in order to pursue its global political agenda. Result? A lot (but not all) of the world condemns this illegal, rogue, multiple murderous act. Lots of talk of the rule of law, of the judiciary, of how the Western "system" is so much better than any other; and how the West (USA) is right to invade and occupy other sovereign countries via superior military force, simply because it's leader(s) don't like their leaders. Lots of cheering as TV footage show "our" side blowing up people from "their" side, wrecking their water supplies, their power supplies, ruining their economies. Then country that (of course) screamed loudest about the illegality, the foulness of such an international murder act, and how they are "better" because they have and adhere to rules of law and judiciary simply ignores all those principles and does exactly the same. It spends years planning, then mounts an illegal murderous raid into another sovereign country, in secret and without permission, deliberately killing a number people in that country in order to pursue its global political agenda. Not entirely sure why we wept at the first internationally illegal murderous act by one organisation, yet should today all without exception jump with joy when we learn of another internationally murderous act by a different organisation...............just because it was committed by "us" on "them". I despaired at the first act. And I think on calm balance that I rather despair at this one too. But I suspect my view will not be the majority one. Which is why I await the next such act, and all the others that will follow, with equal despair, as more humans continue to invade the countries of other humans (either as individuals or in armies) and deliberately kill other humans to propagate what they see as the only "right" way to live. Has anyone read of any Pakistani protests about the 'illegal act'. However, what totally amazes me is that anyone can compare the apprehension or killing of a self-confessed mass murderer of thousands of innocent men, women and children of all races and religions, with the actions of that murderer. This was a righteous act that was deserved and justified. This man has stated that his enemy is not just the armies of the west, but every citizen, children included. Will it reduce the threat of terror? Maybe, maybe not, but it's irrelevant. Should we simply allow such people to continue living without having to pay for their dreadful crimes? I know, let's not bother catching and punishing Islamist terrorists because the chances are that another one will come along. It's just a pity that he couldn't have been beheaded whilst still aware of his fate, just as he and his followers have done to Westerners unfortunate enough to fall into their hands. Well done the USA and three cheers for the CIA and for the brave Special Forces who undertook this dangerous mission. They have made the world a better place now that Bin Laden isn't in it. I can assure you that your view will not be a majority one, based as it is, from previous posts, on nothing more than an irrational and ill-informed prejudice against the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Whatever the argument on the rights and wrongs of the so called illegal occupation of foreign countries is the reality is I would imagine that most folk dont care a dot wether this attack was with the approval of the pakistani government or either the legality of such an attack. I would imagine that most folk hope just before he took the bullet to his head he may have felt even just for a split second a little of the terror he in the name of Islam has inflicted on thousands of victims . I hope his journey to the afterlife takes a wrong turn and for eternity he is in the company of those he murdered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 malc d - 2011-05-02 11:00 AM spospe - 2011-05-02 10:29 AM Better to have captured him, tried him and locked him up for ever and ever. I know it costs more than killing him, but we all die eventually and giving him a miserable life seems to me a better punishment than sending him to paradise. Surely that would have meant a danger of 'hostages' being kidnapped all over the place to be swapped for him ? malc d The present situation will possibly result in attacks "all over the place" to avenge him? Going down the route of having a public trial would have shown all the evidence to the world and thus the justification for locking him up. This opportunity has now been lost. He is now possibly a martyr (which he probably wanted) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francisgraham Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 spospe - 2011-05-02 1:02 PM malc d - 2011-05-02 11:00 AM spospe - 2011-05-02 10:29 AM Better to have captured him, tried him and locked him up for ever and ever. I know it costs more than killing him, but we all die eventually and giving him a miserable life seems to me a better punishment than sending him to paradise. Surely that would have meant a danger of 'hostages' being kidnapped all over the place to be swapped for him ? malc d The present situation will possibly result in attacks "all over the place" to avenge him? Going down the route of having a public trial would have shown all the evidence to the world and thus the justification for locking him up. This opportunity has now been lost. He is now possibly a martyr (which he probably wanted) Do you honestly believe that if we'd tried him and locked him up that terrorist acts would have stopped? The mind boggles! Islamist fanatics would have killed thousands of innocent people after holding them to ransom in exchange for his freedom. His release from prison would have been the prized object of every Muslim fanatic. And what more evidence do you need? He is a self-confessed murderer of thousands of innocent men, women and children of all races and religions. He has publicly stated that his targets are not just our armies, but our citizens, whatever their sex or age. Yes, terrorism will continue, but this sends out a powerful message and it has given the vast majority of us hope that eventually, all of these animals will be brought to justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 BGD , Your "despair "as you put it over the way this act was undertaken makes my gut turn . Sympathy with the devil , shame on you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I've not yet read or heard from anywhere that the U.S. raid went into Pakistan without permission. I think this is one of those situations where we may not know all the 'facts' for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Francis - You remain free to believe that the end always justifies the means, and thus in this that international murders of people rather than arrest and trial can be matched by more international murders of people without arrest and trial. I would rather that the West walked the way it talks rather more. A whole lot more. I'm not at all clear how it expects the "Western Way" to triumph around the rest of the globe when we totally ignore the rule of law that we profess to uphold and adhere to, we totally ignore the judicial process that we profess to adhere to, we totally ignore the bona fides of other sovereign states that we profess to adhere to, whenever it becomes an inconvenience. You really don't spread "democracy and the rule of law" and capture hearts and minds to convince other countries to your principles of society via illegal military invasions, via extra-ordinary rendition, via imprisonment without trial or access the legal justice systems, via ignorance of international laws, and international murder squad attacks. Really, you don't. What you should do is show the rest of the world, and all those other "backward" countries that, even when times get tough, you stick to your core principles and societal values; by obeying your own and international law, and upholding a system of criminal justice. Otherwise, in a global sense, you are no more or less a terrorist agaisnt other countries, other people, and indeed even against other suspected terrorists as a State, than those groups of "backwards" people who you complain of terrorising you. You might personally feel better invading other countries in order to murder suspected murderers and of course also murdering anyone else who gets in the way, but all you end up doing is convincing massive swathes of people in countries around the rest of the world that "The West" ( basically the USA plus the UK) is the ultimate global bigot; utterly hypocritical, and increasingly hated for its military bullying. You might not think that that matters. But I think it does. In my simple view, this really is not a Good Thing for the USA or the UK or for the human species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-05-02 2:56 PM BGD , Your "despair "as you put it over the way this act was undertaken makes my gut turn . Sympathy with the devil , shame on you Please DO NOT misunderstand me, nor seek to misrepresent my view. My despair is over the PROCESS that was used by the "law-abiding, higher moral-ground" pontificating USA in this case. I think that Illegal murder is a stupid way to respond to illegal murder, if what we are trying to do is to show that "our way" is better than "their way" and thus convince people all over the world to side with the Western system rather than drive them to embrace radical Muslimism because they hate what the "West" has done to them or their relatives or their countries when it invaded and occupied them. It simply seems incrongruous to me that the USA (and UK by implication) can preach to the rest of the world about the value of our principles, yet ignore them when adherence doesn't suit us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Your profile picture makes it look like your struggling to get something out of your backside , your last couple of posts I presume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francisgraham Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 BGD - 2011-05-02 3:21 PM Francis - You remain free to believe that the end always justifies the means, and thus in this that international murders of people rather than arrest and trial can be matched by more international murders of people without arrest and trial. I would rather that the West walked the way it talks rather more. A whole lot more. I'm not at all clear how it expects the "Western Way" to triumph around the rest of the globe when we totally ignore the rule of law that we profess to uphold and adhere to, we totally ignore the judicial process that we profess to adhere to, we totally ignore the bona fides of other sovereign states that we profess to adhere to, whenever it becomes an inconvenience. You really don't spread "democracy and the rule of law" and capture hearts and minds to convince other countries to your principles of society via illegal military invasions, via extra-ordinary rendition, via imprisonment without trial or access the legal justice systems, via ignorance of international laws, and international murder squad attacks. Really, you don't. What you should do is show the rest of the world, and all those other "backward" countries that, even when times get tough, you stick to your core principles and societal values; by obeying your own and international law, and upholding a system of criminal justice. Otherwise, in a global sense, you are no more or less a terrorist agaisnt other countries, other people, and indeed even against other suspected terrorists as a State, than those groups of "backwards" people who you complain of terrorising you. You might personally feel better invading other countries in order to murder suspected murderers and of course also murdering anyone else who gets in the way, but all you end up doing is convincing massive swathes of people in countries around the rest of the world that "The West" ( basically the USA plus the UK) is the ultimate global bigot; utterly hypocritical, and increasingly hated for its military bullying. You might not think that that matters. But I think it does. In my simple view, this really is not a Good Thing for the USA or the UK or for the human species. Simple view is the right expression. For God's sake man, we're at war! This isn't someone who's parked illegally, it's a man who has declared war on us and bombed us and killed our citizens. In a war you don't stop to read the enemy his rights, you kill the bugger before he kills you. We didn't start this, he did, with the US Cole, the Beirut Embassy and 9/11. If anyone is despairing it's those of us who have to read this perverted liberal-left tripe that you keep uttering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 antony1969 - you have private mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-05-02 2:56 PM BGD , Your "despair "as you put it over the way this act was undertaken makes my gut turn . Sympathy with the devil , shame on you[/quote Edited. Asnot worth the hassle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-05-02 3:34 PM Your profile picture makes it look like your struggling to get something out of your backside , your last couple of posts I presumeIt's his head I think. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 BGD. Do you realy thik that Bin ladin would have surrended himself to an unarmed law officer with an arrest warrant, if so you live in a fairyland with no sense of reality. The Pakistan goernment said if they had known he was there they would have done it themselves. The best message sent out is YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE. well done the yanks. >:-) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 BGD. Do you realy think that Bin ladin would have surrended himself to an unarmed law officer with an arrest warrant, if so you live in a fairyland with no sense of reality. The Pakistan goernment said if they had known he was there they would have done it themselves. The best message sent out is YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE. well done the yanks. >:-) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 antony1969 - 2011-05-02 3:34 PM Your profile picture makes it look like your struggling to get something out of your backside , your last couple of posts I presume Antony - just because you disagree with someone, anyone, it does not justify being insulting or rude to them as all it does is weaken your own argument. Whilst I don't mourn the passing of Bin Laden as he has had it coming for years, I do have to agree with Bruce about the arrogance and double standards of the USA, and by association the UK. Al Qaeda will no doubt be soon seeking revenge and so the cycle will continue with hundreds of innocent and defenceless people in many countries at risk of being the next victims as each side's leaders keep themselves safe whilst they play tit for tat with other people and their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Richard..........Bruce is a big boy now and does not need you to stick up for him. We've got enough pseudo moderators on here already thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 peter - 2011-05-02 8:28 PM Richard..........Bruce is a big boy now and does not need you to stick up for him. We've got enough pseudo moderators on here already thank you very much. Not so much sticking up for Bruce - more a case of expressing my dislike for personal attacks from any source - usually when the poster is unable to find a sensible answer. Thank you for your input Peter - but Antony is well capable of defending himself and does not need your support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 peter - 2011-05-02 8:28 PM We've got enough pseudo moderators on here already. Indeed we have. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Whilst the controversy rages, I'll stick my oar in. IMO the Yanks got it wrong again. (maybe not the view of the majority) BUT they should have brought Bin Laden out alive & then globally broardcast his public execution on board their Carrier that dumped his body. That way we would all know his fate & get rid of all the conspiracy theories emerging. As for Parkistan, little wonder the US didn't trust them to prewarn they where coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I agree with that Flicka. How do we know he's dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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