Ian0354 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Porky - 2011-05-07 4:15 PMBrian Kirby - 2011-05-06 6:22 PMPorky - 2011-05-06 2:27 PM ............ But let's get one thing straight IT WAS NOT ASSASINATION. Yes he was killed but as had been said very eloquantly the man who pulled the trigger had no way of knowing what the next two seconds would bring. Roy, I have no problem whatsoever with that. But it was the state that sent the men (presumably) to kill him. That would be an assassination, as I understand the definition. If they were sent to capture him and not to kill him, it is for the US to say, but so far they have not. .Brian my disquiet is based very much on some of your comments, however, I really take issue with the use of the word ASSASINATION. You say "if they were sent in to capture him" well OK what if they were, but that proved impossible for some reason? Are you really telling us that you, and the rest of the world would believe it if the USA said as much. I don't think so. Roy FullerI have to admit to not following this news with the determination that some here seem to have, but didn't I see, in the very early reports, that OBL was given the opportunity to surrender and to be taken into custody which he refused and this lead to his being "dispatched"? If my recollection is correct then it would appear the Seals had few options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Its quite amazing how many "hang em and flog ems" there are out there. Its little wonder that there will never be a referendum on the restoring capital punishment in this country, for this I'm grateful. On this issue, as with many others I'm with Brian and the Archbishop of Canterbury on this. Civilised societies are judged on how these extremely challenging situations are dealt with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Its quite amazing how many "hang em and flog ems" there are out there. Its little wonder that there will never be a referendum on the restoring capital punishment in this country, for this I'm grateful. On this issue, as with many others I'm with Brian and the Archbishop of Canterbury on this. Civilised societies are judged on how these extremely challenging situations are dealt with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Bin Laden......................just another Has Bin :D .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 starvin marvin - 2011-05-08 7:17 PM Its quite amazing how many "hang em and flog ems" there are out there. Its little wonder that there will never be a referendum on the restoring capital punishment in this country, for this I'm grateful. On this issue, as with many others I'm with Brian and the Archbishop of Canterbury on this. Civilised societies are judged on how these extremely challenging situations are dealt with. The Archbishop of Canterbury is as bonkers as he looks and his view on this does not surprise me , thankfully his opinion counts for very little with the majority of people I would presume . Bin Laden is dead , no American military casualties during the operation , nobody other than who were in the compound killed during the operation , masses of material removed from the compound and for the relatives of the dead murdered in his name a little bit of payback , for this I'm grateful . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-05-06 4:27 PMfrancisgraham - 2011-05-05 9:28 PM ..............Once again, a totally over-the-top reaction with phrases such as 'dumping him in the drink' outlining what appears to be the writer's deep-rooted antipathy to the USA. In case you haven't read about what actually happened he was buried at sea, within the time-frame for Muslim sensibilities and he was shown more reverence than he ever deserved. As for the assault itself, I love how armchair liberals can gainsay the actions of the troops who risked their lives so as to minimise other innocent lives. Why didn't the USA simply bomb the entire compound using a drone? As you sit in your comfy chair worrying about 'moral scruples' think on this - as the noisy helicopters landed there was every chance that Bin Laden could have picked up his remote suicide control and blown them all to bits. But what the hell does it matter if a few troops die as long as the 'moral scruples' of the liberal-left can be upheld? I love even more the oft-repeated claim that his death will provoke even more terrorist atrocities whilst quietly side-stepping the inevitable attempts that there would be to free him by taking hostages. And when he was found guilty, which he would have been, what would have been the reaction to his even more ignominious death by lethal injection or hanging? But, what the hell! Do a few thousand more deaths matter if the 'moral scruples' of the left can be maintained? There are more Middle-East experts, and I mean real experts, who are convinced that this has dealt a mortal blow to al Qaeda. It has demoralised them and demonstrated that however long it takes, they will be brought to justice. And as for the West always having to occupy the higher moral ground, whatever the cost or loss of life, this is a typical liberal reaction by those unwilling or unable to understand that these people do not think like us. What they see is weakness and, in their bazaars,they marvel at us because when they kill thousands of us in the most diabolical way all we can do is lock them up in a prison that, to them, boasts a higher standard of living than anywhere in their homeland. But what disgusts me, is the total disregard for the victims, and the families of the victims, of the atrocities committed by these animals and in particular the Americans on 9/11 and our own citizens on 7/7. You never read about them in these outpourings about 'moral scruples'. Some people complained about how appalling it is that Americans danced in the streets of New York and in front of the White House when they learned of Bin Laden's death. That's like chastising the Jews for celebrating the capture of Adolf Eichmann! And the final totally over-the-top comment must be, that this justified wartime killing could now become the norm in civil policing is just laughable and if that's the best that you can do in an argument about the merits or otherwise of this exercise then it shows you grasping at the thinnest of straws to justify your stance. It is sad that, when an event such as this happens, there are those whose only thoughts are for the most vile creatures that ever lived and that feeling good about their own so-called liberal values and moral scruples blinds them to the victims and to the real morality of what has happened. Killing Bin Laden in these circumstances was justified, was legal and was necessary. I would not risk one more American or British life in an attempt to capture him alive. The lives of these soldiers, who are the ones who really stand between us and the barbarians at the gate are worth far more to me than the posturing moral scruples of any of the liberal left. Calm down Dear! :-D I understand that you wish to say you disagree with me? That is fine. I understand. Your rant merely illustrates the reason I have reservations over the way the US has handled this. I think history will show they have scored an own-goal: you do not. Time will tell.Sorry if "dumping in the drink" offended you, it was meant to illustrate they way I fear many will interpret the act, not necessarily my own view of it. For the record, I have no "deep-seated antipathy to the USA", though you wish one on me. I don't agree with many things they do, this being one, but in other ways I greatly admire them.I haven't seen/heard any reports of Bin Laden's remote suicide control, clearly it would justify the killing as an act of self-defence, but it seem odd he was then reported as unarmed. Where have you found this reported, please?Does it matter if troops die? Of course it matters, which is why I think our troops should never have been committed into Iraq by Blair/Bush.Regarding hostage taking, of course it is a risk. But tell me, would more hostages have been taken had he been captured, than may yet die in revenge attacks? Do you have some special insights? Had he been properly tried and sentenced it would have demonstrated strength of purpose and resolve. I think that a far more powerful deterrent message than mere assassination. Instead, we have descended to the level of the terrorist. Not, in my view, very clever.I was unaware this particular concern was one of the political "left", I had thought it one of long-term strategy.As to middle-east experts, they have many and varied opinions but, in the end, they are but opinions, albeit better informed opinions than mine. However, I seem to have heard a number of eminent experts and political advisers from outside the US voice reservations similar to my own, and even a few from within the US.Our collective problem with occupying the high ground, is that we do rather preach from it. But then, what would you prefer us to do instead? You seem rather to prefer the idea of all out war against a largely invisible enemy. How would that work? How many would die? Would it ever bring peace?Why bring Bin Laden's victims into this? Do you mean you think their deaths justify the manner of Bin Laden's killing, so that those poor hapless souls become fair gain to pray in aid of his killing? Bit cheap, I think. Besides which, what do you presume gives you the right to portray my feelings for Bin Laden's victims as any less worthy than yours?As to portraying this as a wartime killing, it is not. With which state, exactly, are we at war? Pakistan, because that is where he was found and killed?With respect, I think it is you who needs to understand more of the nature of terrorism, of the way al Qaeda and its followers think and act, and of the root causes of this conflict. IMO, it can not be ended militarily, nor by trials or assassinations. Our best chance of it ending will be a just and honest peace in the middle-east. But note: just, and honest. To break a feud of such bitterness and long standing, one side has to break the cycle of killing, having confidence the other side will reciprocate, assisted by a trusted intermediary acting as honest broker and go-between. It seems we wish to contribute to that role, for which we need all sides to believe in the value of our justice systems, and of our honesty. I simply do not see how extra judicial killings of whoever can bring about that degree of confidence. This is a far bigger game than mere revenge for an act of brutal infamy. That is the element I think you are missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlowie Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Oh heck, sorry about the duplicated posts :$ What IS the matter with this website, lately (?) I'm glad to hear that the building that housed Bin Laden's hidey-hole is to be razed to the ground :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlowie Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Another duplicate and I can't delete it >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 It strikes me as being totally unbelievable that all you "self proclaimed" experts on Middle Eastern terrorism, with all your claims that you know more than the media have reported, didn't offer your services to the authorities long ago. Perhaps bin laden would have been captured within weeks of murdering 3000 people in the twin towers. Your scenarios and suggestions about how he should/could have been captured alive would have been invalueble to the world. The sad fact is, none of you know any more than they (the authorities) have allowed you to know, and yet you still continue this " I know better than you" BS. bin laden is dead, accept it whatever the method used, you are not going to change anything. Neither he, nor his followers gave a monkeys ass as to the rights and wrongs of their executions, beheadings and murders of innocent people, including their Muslim brothers and sisters, and yet the only thing you lot are bothered about is who is the cleverest, holier than thou, and most persistant motorhomer. Get a life and grow up. In my opinion (and despite any of your personal thoughts about me, I am as entitled to have one as much as any other person) I think this thread should be locked, It's run it's course and no-one is willing to let anyone else have the last word. >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The USA is far from perfect when it decides such things as this if another country had done this there would have been an outcry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francisgraham Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 jhorsf - 2011-05-09 10:29 AMThe USA is far from perfect when it decides such things as this if another country had done this there would have been an outcryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp Like others you fail to grasp the significance between civil jurisprudence and its wartime equivalent. Most countries have done what the US has done in the case of Guantanamo Bay, that is, establish prisoner-of-war camps where our enemies are without trial held until hostilities cease, or it is deemed safe to release them to their native country. The US, unlike al Qaeda, which simply beheads captured American servicemen, has released hundreds from Guantanamo after determining that they are no longer a threat. That is the real difference between a country that is civilised and Muslim terrorists who are not. Do not confuse Guantanamo Bay with a normal civil prison. It is a prisoner-of-war camp and is legal and justified. The US is doing nothing more that we and our enemies did in WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Not only that Francis but we Brits actually invented the concentration camp concept during the Boar War. As for those that advocate Bin Laden’s capture – had that actually happened then just about every westerner around the world would have been a target as a hostage for his release. If anyone wants the capture and very possibly innocent blood spilled on their hands then by all means try applying high moral standards to despotic criminals whose main claim to fame is a pathological hatred of all the things that we hold dear, such as equality of the sexes, religious tolerance and protection of the innocent. Bin Laden declared war on civilians – children, women and men just going about their daily task. Did the Americans drop a soding great bomb on the compound to kill him as well as those in the vicinity? No – they went in with a surgical strike and took out the piece of $hit. It was a military action – not an indiscriminate terrorist atrocity – and the head of a fanatical order that had declared war on our way of life and who had much innocent blood on his hands was killed. So what? Damn good riddance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 Should of sent some of the the liberal bores on here to talk him out of his compound cos i'm sure he would either of blown himself up or willingly surrended to our American brothers just to escape . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) Well said Antony - I worked out a long time ago that hell hath no fury like a leftie with moral myopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 donna miller - 2011-05-09 9:30 AM It strikes me as being totally unbelievable that all you "self proclaimed" experts on Middle Eastern terrorism, with all your claims that you know more than the media have reported, didn't offer your services to the authorities long ago. Perhaps bin laden would have been captured within weeks of murdering 3000 people in the twin towers. Your scenarios and suggestions about how he should/could have been captured alive would have been invalueble to the world. The sad fact is, none of you know any more than they (the authorities) have allowed you to know, and yet you still continue this " I know better than you" BS. bin laden is dead, accept it whatever the method used, you are not going to change anything. Neither he, nor his followers gave a monkeys ass as to the rights and wrongs of their executions, beheadings and murders of innocent people, including their Muslim brothers and sisters, and yet the only thing you lot are bothered about is who is the cleverest, holier than thou, and most persistant motorhomer. Get a life and grow up. In my opinion (and despite any of your personal thoughts about me, I am as entitled to have one as much as any other person) I think this thread should be locked, It's run it's course and no-one is willing to let anyone else have the last word. >:-( Donna. Is that really you in your Avatar? Cos if it is I agree with everything your saying. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 And if that is really Barry, Donna - watch out when he gets his light sabre out 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 jhorsf - 2011-05-09 10:29 AM The USA is far from perfect when it decides such things as this if another country had done this there would have been an outcry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp No more than the outcry when we invented the concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War#Concentration_camps_.281900_-_1902.29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 THE END................................... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 CliveH - 2011-05-09 3:26 PM (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) Well said Antony - I worked out a long time ago that hell hath no fury like a leftie with moral myopia. Goodness. Do you think BGD is a 'leftie' ? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Ha Ha, love that last picture. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Thank Alla for that! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Thank Alla for that! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Thank Alla for that! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-05-09 4:32 PM THE END................................... :D Why oh why is it that when we get a really thought provoking post such as the quote above the damned web site does not duplicate it like it does several others. Well said that man. Still dont think it was right though :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Donna. Is that really you in your Avatar? Cos if it is I agree with everything your saying. :-D guess who :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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