Theft of catalytic converter (yes, yet another!)

[Shaun]

It's a valid point, and I suppose some possible kind of get-out clause, but is it realistic? I'm thinking what does performance gain really mean from the underwriting perspective, when it's a motorhome? Still, it wouldn't do any harm to check with the insurer, so I'll run it by Safeguard to see what they have to say on the matter.

 

Shaun

[Guest Peter James]

Sorry, another post here from somebody who has never actually tried it. But maybe not quite as daft as the one which tells us the metals in the cat only cost £1 *-)

 

I have looked at my van (X2/50 2.2 2008) and found there are no sensors downstream of the CAT. So I fail to see how the ECU could detect anything if you remove it?

[Shaun]

Peter, I'm not sure if the cats on these vehicles have changed between first release at the end of 2006 and the more recent ones. Mine's a 2007, 2.3 engine, and I'm trying to fathom where the sensor would have been attached to at the engine end. My understanding is that the sensor itself is attached to the cat, so when that's nicked, the sensor goes with it. Given that the thief will probably have got in and out as quickly as possible, I expected a dangling wire to have been left behind, but there's nothing.

 

Nick describes the sensor as a probe and when disconnected from just the cat, dashboard lights came on. I'm wondering whether that's because the sensor was still connected to the ECU. However, if the sensor is also removed from the ECU, is it feasible that a different state of play is registered, and the engine stops trying to monitor signals from the sensor, and reverts to an engine management program which is based on there being no cat on the vehicle? This would explain why in the absence of both cat and sensor, the engine runs happily and no warning lights come on.

 

Shaun

[Shaun]

I've just come back from an exhaust place, part of the Powerflow chain which Nick suggested. Cheers, Nick!

 

They couldn't match the flange which the cat had connected to - not that it was unusual, but they just didn't stock it. So, they chopped off the flange and welded a pipe at that end and bolted it normally at the other end. The job took 40 minutes.

 

I drove it home, up and down hills and it seems just as it did before the cat and sensor were removed. The 2.3 is a great lump, so it's difficult to judge if performance has increased. However, there's definitely no less performance, and no warning lights anywhere.

 

Cost: £83.49 including VAT.

 

I'm going to tell Safeguard what I've done and see if it's OK to postpone the insurance claim pending a decent trial of the van without its cat. I've hopefully saved us both a fortune, so I'm hoping I would be able to go back to them later on should this delightfully simple solution transpire not to be all that it should.

 

Meanwhile, I don't have to worry about a replacement cat being nicked.

 

Shaun

[Steve928]

I presume that they will have fabricated the 2 support arms (that will have gone with the stolen cat) that fitted into the 2 exhaust rubber mountings just above the cat?

You wouldn't want the system flopping around without these as I suspect that the flexible section would soon give way.

 

You can see the 2 mounting arms on this picture of a de-cat pipe.

On the original part they are welded to the outer diameter of the cat itself.

 

[Shaun]

Yes, Steve, I asked them to do that as it was obviously needed. It all looks pretty solid.

 

Shaun

[Steve928]

That's good - glad that you're all sorted and Cat-free! :-)

[Guest peter]

People have been putting de-cat pipes on cars for years to get better performance and economy. As long as no lambda sensor downstream of the cat i don't see any problem at all.

[everhopeful]

I wonder why our Police don't raid a few scrapyards and put the frighteners on them and the suppliers.

 

It must be obvious that these metals have come from CATs, so why can't the yards be asked for details of suppliers and suppliers be asked for details of where the CATs have come from? Legal CATs can only come from vehicle scrappers or the replacement market, both being able to supply the registration number of the donor vehicle.

 

If it was made difficult to sell the metals then wouldn't our CATs be a little safer, or have I missed something.

 

I'll guess that the Police don't give a stuff until the number of thefts start upsetting their crime figures!

 

[duetto owner]

under the scrap metal dealers act 1964 they have to keep records of all scrap metal and the police are used to make regular monthly inspections to compare with crime on their books.

 

would be interesting if over the years this has been quietly dropped also local council can inspect too.

 

I wonder if the freedom of information act on how often these checks are made has been done. . one for an article in MMM to investigate.

[alf]

duetto owner - 2011-06-30 9:02 AM

 

under the scrap metal dealers act 1964 they have to keep records of all scrap metal and the police are used to make regular monthly inspections to compare with crime on their books.

 

would be interesting if over the years this has been quietly dropped also local council can inspect too.

 

I wonder if the freedom of information act on how often these checks are made has been done. . one for an article in MMM to investigate.

 

David the iffy dealers dont record when buying scrap at a fraction of the going price, they then hide the stolen scrap they are worse than the ones doing the stealing if no one bought they would not steal.

They generally record your vehicle reg no

 

When found dealing with stolen scrap the dealers licence ought to be taken away but I guess THAT would be classed as against their HUMAN RIGHTS

[Guest Peter James]

everhopeful - 2011-06-29 10:01 PM

 

I'll guess that the Police don't give a stuff until the number of thefts start upsetting their crime figures!

 

..... which they won't as long as people don't bother to report thefts to the police ....

[John Anne]

Hi everyone,

 

Sadly this epidemic seems to be spreading around the country. A friend of mine has had his catalytic converter stolen from his van - not a motorhome. This happened whilst he was parked up near a site he was doing a job on. It would seem that the tea leaves have decided its easier than breaking in to the van for tools to steal.

 

Based on this and considering that prevention is better than cure, together with the part sleepless nights we were having about a potential bill of £2000+ to replace the missing items, not to mention 'murphys law' that would ensure that we were hit just before leaving for a holiday! We have invested in a Cat Clamp. I must admit I was a little doubious about buying something like this without being able to view the product in my hands, but given all of the above we went for it.

 

I can only say that I have been very impressed by the whole experience of obtaining the Cat Clamp. The company were very helpful prior to order and within 18 hours of ordering it the courier was knocking on my door.

 

As for the Cat Clamp itself I can only say that it is a substantial piece of kit and quite easy to fit. It took me about 90 mins single handed and that was laid on the floor shuffling about under the MH. With help I could have probably done it in half the time.

 

At least we are sleeping better now in the knowledge that we have probably done all we can to deter theft and that if the worst did occur, Cat Clamp gives insurance cover as part of the purchase price.

 

We have included a couple of photos to show you the finished product.

 

I hope it helps others who may be going through the same dilema as we were.

 

Happy to answer any questions you may have.

 

[bobalobs]

A bit off topic but friends of ours last year had the solar panel stolen off the roof of their Murvi Morello . Suspect resulting from people on the scaffoldind on a building next to their house spotting it . Seems nothing is safe nowadays. The supplier of the replacement said it is an increasing problem. No longer using Sikaflex is enough.

[euroserv]

Hello Shaun et al,

 

A very satisfactory outcome. Well done.

 

We have not had any cat's stolen from Ducato's (yet) but will get a replacement pipe fabricated just in case. If I can get the flange part so that it's just a bolt-on replacement you might see them for sale on Ebay soon!

 

I have to confess that when i asked our mechanics to investigate unplugging the sensor to see what happened I was not directly supervising the experiment. I have this week been underneath both 2.3 and 3.0 vans and have found that there is no sensor after the one in the exhaust manifold! There is only one problem that I can foresee with replacing the cat and that is a small variation in back-pressure. Extremely unlikely to be a problem.

 

I have got a Merc sprinter coming today because a customer has had 4 complete exhaust systems nicked in a couple of weeks to see what can be done. I hope a similar solution would help here too.

 

This will be ok for most Euro4 vehicles but not Euro5 because the DPF that will be present as well as the cat will definitely have electrical connections and be a very important part of the combustion process. Leave Euro5 well alone! Get your Euro4 vehicle while you can!

 

Nick

[onecal]

Hi, Great idea, hope it never happens again to you. Not wanting to put a damper on things the converter can still be cut off in seconds with the shears the fire crew uses. This is what they use, gone in seconds.  It does not matter what model,  the only answer to this crime is they have to be caught.

Regards,

Brendan

[John Anne]

onecal - 2011-07-07 12:19 PM

 

Hi, Great idea, hope it never happens again to you. Not wanting to put a damper on things the converter can still be cut off in seconds with the shears the fire crew uses. This is what they use, gone in seconds.  It does not matter what model,  the only answer to this crime is they have to be caught.

Regards,

Brendan

 

Hi Brendan,

 

I agree that most things can be stolen with the right equipment, but I understand that my friends catalytic converter was stolen with the use of one of these small battery operated metal saws. The Cat Clamp aircraft grade stainless steel rope should deter this?

 

As I said, we have probably done as much as we can to deter the opportunist. Let's hope it is enough to convince them to move on to an easier target.

 

Cheers.

[BGD]

I know our old-dog 1992 MH on a Peugeot J5 2.5TD base is as slow as an arthritic sloth, and bloody noisy, and drips a bit of oil, and drinks a bit of diesel, but........................

 

............at least there's no jaw-droppingly pricey Cat to steal, no ECU or electronic sensors to fail, no switching to "limp-home" mode whenever the ECU thinks it's time a for a practical joke; it loves uber-cheapo 20W50 mineral oil, and there's actually space in the engine bay to get at everything for (easy) servicing.

Oh, and no-one would ever nick it as they'd be too ashamed to be seen chugging along in it.

 

[John Anne]

BGD - 2011-07-07 1:25 PM

 

I know our old-dog 1992 MH on a Peugeot J5 2.5TD base is as slow as an arthritic sloth, and bloody noisy, and drips a bit of oil, and drinks a bit of diesel, but........................

 

............at least there's no jaw-droppingly pricey Cat to steal, no ECU or electronic sensors to fail, no switching to "limp-home" mode whenever the ECU thinks it's time a for a practical joke; it loves uber-cheapo 20W50 mineral oil, and there's actually space in the engine bay to get at everything for (easy) servicing.

Oh, and no-one would ever nick it as they'd be too ashamed to be seen chugging along in it.

 

Hi BGD,

 

Wow almost 22 years old! Well Done. It must have been very expensive when new.

 

We intend keeping ours that long too, perhaps it's the only way we will get value for money ;-) unless we are priced off the road with diesel costs, road tax and insurance.

 

Wonder what engines and the associated electronics will look like in 2030 (?)

[Shaun]

It's now a week since I had the stolen cat replaced with straight pipe. Given all the commentary and advice from this thread, anyone possibly affected by a similar theft can take a long, hard look at all of this.

 

When my cat was stolen, I was at first mortified that it had happened right beneath my bedroom windows. They're shut at night to keep noise at bay, but on this occasion a bit of noise would have helped, as I doubt anyone could saw off a cat in the dead of a summer night and not be heard.

 

Anyway, I then read the recent MHF thread from a lady not too far from me who'd had much the same thing happen to her, and she was also shocked at how close to her the thief/thieves would have been. She was due to go on holiday and was adamant there was no way she'd not replace like for like. There was advice about leaving the cat off, but that wasn't going to happen. However, as there was a lack of stock in the UK, instead, she sourced used parts and had them fitted just in time for her holiday. The consequence was to save the insurance company a lot of money, but the reward to this policyholder for the much-reduced claim, was a doubling of renewal premium soon thereafter (add your expletive of choice in the direction of the insurers at this juncture).

 

In my case, I reckoned it's difficult to know how one claim will affect multiple insurances where the policyholder has more than one vehicle, as many of us do. I was therefore concerned by the ongoing insurance implications, plus the possible theft of the replacement cat.

 

If we tot up the cost of the replacement cat plus ancillary parts, then add to that the cost of a steel rope cage around the replacement cat, we're now at over two and a half grand. Fiat's parts monopoly doesn't help at all, so all in all, this is a major concern to many motorhomers for a section of the exhaust system which isn't strictly necessary.

 

I've had the insurers on the phone to acknowledge the withdrawal of my claim. I would have preferred a written response to my email, but verbally they have no problem with my replacing the cat with a piece of pipe. I've stressed that if this very cheap solution doesn't work out for whatever reason, I reserve the right to resurrect the claim at a later date. Verbally, there was no problem with that.

 

Shaun

 

 

[onecal]

Hi John and Ann , true but from the info I am getting back most are taken with the use of shears used by fire crew,they have been stolen some years back from fire and rescue crews, these are silent in operation and I am afraid the wires would not be much of a deterrent.

Regards,

Brendan

[John Anne]

The distress and possibly anger that Shaun must have experienced on discovering this theft and one that happened on his doorstep must have been terrible. He has my total sympathy.

 

His solution to the problem is, to some extent, comforting to those of us who have similar engines and who may be facing the same problem one day. At the very least we know that a cost effective repair can be carried out which does not appear to affect the running or performance of the engine. It would be good to know how well the engine continues to perform when a few hundred miles are added without the presence of a catalytic converter?

 

I think that if it had been us who were the victims then I too would have looked for a more economical solution also as opposed to spending £2000+. So we can only thank Shaun for sharing this experience with us.

 

Nevertheless, given that my catalytic converter is still intact on the MH - I think! (must go and check after this) I thought it better to at least try and protect it from the less well tooled up 'tea leaves'. I fully accept that if they come with hydraulic shears then I might as well give them the keys because they can take the top off the cab if they wanted to. But that doesn't mean I'll leave the doors open for them just in case they come with that type of tool. No, I lock and alarm the MH as a deterent. That is why I have fitted the Cat Clamp - as a deterent.

 

If the worst happens then I will probably follow in Shauns' footsteps - assuming that his MH continues to operate correctly.

 

I wonder what else will set the trend of stolen items in these time of austerity? We already know that diesel is another target, but that is a topic for another thread!

 

In the meantime we intend to keep the wheels rolling then the bu**ers can't get at the MH :->

[Guest pelmetman]

BGD - 2011-07-07 1:25 PMI know our old-dog 1992 MH on a Peugeot J5 2.5TD base is as slow as an arthritic sloth, and bloody noisy, and drips a bit of oil, and drinks a bit of diesel, but........................ ............at least there's no jaw-droppingly pricey Cat to steal, no ECU or electronic sensors to fail, no switching to "limp-home" mode whenever the ECU thinks it's time a for a practical joke; it loves uber-cheapo 20W50 mineral oil, and there's actually space in the engine bay to get at everything for (easy) servicing.Oh, and no-one would ever nick it as they'd be too ashamed to be seen chugging along in it.

1992 that's just a mere sprog:D...............Mines 1990,non turbo, with wind up windows8-), and I've still got my old analogue car phone, which works............or would if there was an analogue signal, and no expensive pussy(lol)

But it does everything a new motorhome can..................If a little slower:D

[onecal]

Yes , something is better than nothing, having it locked up in a shed/garage out of view is best but I understand not always possible. the only real solution is put them where they should be, behind bars without the shears.

Regards,

Brendan

[BGD]

pelmetman - 2011-07-07 9:37 PM

BGD - 2011-07-07 1:25 PMI know our old-dog 1992 MH on a Peugeot J5 2.5TD base is as slow as an arthritic sloth, and bloody noisy, and drips a bit of oil, and drinks a bit of diesel, but........................ ............at least there's no jaw-droppingly pricey Cat to steal, no ECU or electronic sensors to fail, no switching to "limp-home" mode whenever the ECU thinks it's time a for a practical joke; it loves uber-cheapo 20W50 mineral oil, and there's actually space in the engine bay to get at everything for (easy) servicing.Oh, and no-one would ever nick it as they'd be too ashamed to be seen chugging along in it.

1992 that's just a mere sprog:D...............Mines 1990,non turbo, with wind up windows8-), and I've still got my old analogue car phone, which works............or would if there was an analogue signal, and no expensive pussy(lol)

But it does everything a new motorhome can..................If a little slower:D

Our first MH ( 5 years ago) looked just like yours: we bought a 1992 Euramobil overcab, on a Peugeot J5 non turbo 2.5 litre diesel chassis cab. performance was uttelry utterly dire. 80kms per hour flat out. Down to second gear on any sort of incline. But chugged on forever. Brilliant fun - cos there was noting to break, and nothing to worry about if it got muddy or dirty. And it only cost 6,000 euros, so if it broke down I'd have just have left it. But it didn't.It chugged with us (slowly) for two years all over Spain and Portugal. Never missed a beat. Then we thanked it for it's selfless and loyal service by showing utter disloyalty: by buying another 1992 MH; this time a bigger, 6-berth A-class Aryal Autostar, with again a Peugeot 2.5 chassis, but with a turbo - all for 17,000 euros.I then flogged the first MH for €2,000 more than we'd bought if for, and thus for the last 3 years we've chugged around in the (for us) uber-quick, cruises-at-100kms-per-hour, Autostar. Have put around 60,000 kms on it (it only had 70,000 kms when we bought it), and spent getting on for 100 nights away in it....... all over Spain and France and Portugal, many times.Brilliant fun, costs buggerall, has never let us down, looks utterly awful, but is cheap and cheerful and everything works. It's so damn simple and basic that there's virtually nothing to break.Yay for venerable Motorhomes! :-D