HymerVan Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I have decided to change my Motorhome and the supplying dealer is willing to sell my present motorhome on my behalf. I anticipate delivering the vehicle to him for that purpose shortly although it will be several months before the new vehicle will be delivered. I am conscious of the risk of insolvency of the dealer (and have read earlier posts) and my assessment is that the risk is low. There are other dangers though e.g. being responsible for fixed penalty offences whilst the vehicle is being driven by others e.g. on a test drive. Any comments on the following queries or others would be appreciated :- 1. Should I cancel my own insurance and rely on the dealers motor trade cover (my own cover allows only me to drive) 2. If I do NOT cancel my insurance will it cover certain risks e.g. theft or fire. 3. Should I inform DVLA of the arrangement. 4. Should I deliver the registration document to the selling dealer BEFORE any sale takes place. 5. Will the selling dealer expect the vehicle to be road taxed ? Thanks in anticipation for all contributions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 "possession" is nine tenths of the law? remember that one? I would be extremely careful *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 as Judge says "Be careful", you need your own insurance still in force to cover damage, theft, fire etc. I would ask for a proper legal document of agreement to be drawn up and signed by both parties. You need to agree who will be responsible for any damage or bits going missing, and your insurance will probably ask a few questions. Mine certainly did, they would only cover mine when a dealer was selling it for me if it was in a locked building at night, in a locked compound with CCTV and an alarm. Luckily mine was kept as required. I have to say it was a good experience selling mine that way, the dealer found several interested parties, did all the test drives and negotiations etc and sold it in two weeks for a lot more than I paid for it! It was a VW and he is a specialist VW dealer. Do a good colour copy of the log book and only part with the original when you have the money in the bank, H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 possesion of documents mean absolutely nothing? call the DVLA and they will send anyone a set! :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have done this, and it worked well for us. You need a simple, formal, written, agreement with the dealer. Ours was based upon an agreed fixed value that was to be returned to me, the dealer took what he could get above that. Others work on an agreed percentage of the sale price. The agreement should record the name and address of the dealer, your name and address, the make and model of the van, its registration number, chassis number and date of first registration. It should record that you agree to leave the vehicle with the dealer for sale or return, and that no charge (or an agreed charge) will be made for preparation of the vehicle for sale, for maintaining it in good order, or for any guarantee offered - possibly subject to you leaving the vehicle with the dealer for a minimum period (4 weeks in our case). It should confirm when payment will be made to you on sale of the vehicle - in our case deemed to be the date on which the purchaser took possession. It should declare that your vehicle is yours to sell and is free from outstanding finance, or what arrangement has been made to deal with outstanding finance (possibly payment by the dealer on receipt of the purchaser's final payment, with the balance to you.) It should then confirm that while in the care of the dealer, on test drive, or in the hands of their employees, the vehicle will be covered against any loss or damage howsoever caused. It should be signed by both parties, and dated, and each should have a copy with original signatures, not just a copy of the signed document. The whole lot fits easily on one side of A4. You keep the log book, and do not complete the sold to a trader part. Once the van is sold, you take it to the dealer, and he completes the change of ownership details. At this time he will raise an invoice for the purchase/sale of the vehicle. In essence it enters and leaves his stock on the same day. While the vehicle is on a motor traders premises, as I understand it, it cannot be insured by you, and must be insured by the trader. The agreement makes clear title rests with you, even though the vehicle is on his premises. You are clearly confident the company is sound, they should be happy to show you their insurance policy, so that you can see the renewal date, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Brian has given an excellent summary of what to do, I would add that it would be wise for you to take a set of photos to ensure that the van goes to the new owner in exactly the same condition as when it left your possession. Damage could occur whilst people are test driving, or even just looking round the interior with a view to buying, and it would be unfair if this made a negative impact on the monies you received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Just one query on Brian's post, which will be a change since he went through the process. Will the recent changes to the SORN Regulations have any effect ? As you can't Insure the Vehicle whilst on the "Dealers' premises, I would assume you need to surrender the Tax Disc & notify DVLA ? Would it be that then the Dealer would fit Trade Plates for any test drive off his premises. ? Even though he does not OWN the Vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 donna miller - 2011-07-08 11:57 AM Brian has given an excellent summary of what to do, I would add that it would be wise for you to take a set of photos to ensure that the van goes to the new owner in exactly the same condition as when it left your possession. ....................... Dead right Donna! I did that, and forgot to mention it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 flicka - 2011-07-08 10:15 PM Just one query on Brian's post, which will be a change since he went through the process. Will the recent changes to the SORN Regulations have any effect ? As you can't Insure the Vehicle whilst on the "Dealers' premises, I would assume you need to surrender the Tax Disc & notify DVLA ? Would it be that then the Dealer would fit Trade Plates for any test drive off his premises. ? Even though he does not OWN the Vehicle. True, that is a change: excellent points. I don't know, but the dealer and/or DVLA should be able to advise. So far as I know, trade plates are merely there to prove that the carrier has the minimum legal insurance on an "any vehicle" basis. If that is correct, ownership should not be an issue, but definitely worth checking. Any test drive must be on the dealer's insurance, since the owner's insurance would be invalidated once the van is on the trader's premises. I seem to remember this is under the rule that the same thing must not be insured by more than one insurer (prevention of making more than one claim for the same event, deemed fraud). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 To be honest I cannot see why you would want to do this, and make life more complicated for yourself, just push the dealer for the value agreed in a part exchange allowance, after all your van could sit there for ever and a day, especially given the time scale you mention with Winter fast approaching by then, and any potential buyer with his own van to P/X could be ruled out as well depending on how the dealer wants to play it. The dealer is in a win win situation, you've bought from him, he eventually say's sorry mate here's your van back we've had no luck, or he makes a good few quid for doing almost nothing,of course there is nothing wrong with that if you get your result, but what if you don't. Plus our nearest dealer leaves all their stock open for anyone to wander around with the inevitable damage, and odd bits nicked. Our last van we P/X with them was still on their pitch months later we were saddened to see the broken wardrobe door, and cracked shower tray,and nicked fridge catch, when I questioned them about their "open door" policy they shrugged and said it went with the territory and they have to sort everything on completion of a sale. No wonder their mark up from our P/X allowance of 19K was 26K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 The point that flicka makes about the insurance and its relationship with SORN is an interesting one. My insurers have stated :- "I can confirm that the policy on your motorhome that you have with us will be invalid once you hand the vehicle over to the dealer. There is no other cover we can offer on this". I have asked them to clarify exactly what they mean and what action they will take if and when I advise them that the vehicle has been taken over. At present I DO understand that there will be limitations in what I can claim if the dealer has possession (and indeed their may be no claims available) but I DO NOT understand where "invalidity" comes in because if the vehicle comes back to me I would expect that the availability of insurance would revert in all its effect. I suspect in practice the correct action may be determined by what they actually do and in particular if the vehicle remains insured per the MID. I do not think there is a "double insurance" situation here because the dealer and I have different interests and different liabilities. I do not think that an overlap in cover automatically invalidates or nullifies insurance (save where there is an actual or intended fraud). I may or may not have to declare SORN. Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Not sure you read my post above, forgive me for saying so, but it would appear you are the one using a sledgehammer to break a nut. Just P/X it.......for the same agreed value, or go elsewhere would seem to be far simpler. :-S :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 HymerVan - 2011-07-10 12:03 PM .......................because if the vehicle comes back to me I would expect that the availability of insurance would revert in all its effect. ............................I do not think there is a "double insurance" situation here because the dealer and I have different interests and different liabilities. I do not think that an overlap in cover automatically invalidates or nullifies insurance (save where there is an actual or intended fraud). I may or may not have to declare SORN. Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut !! Surely easiest to cancel insurance while on dealer's premises and, if it doesn't sell, insure it again. Not sure whether you are able to suspend the insurance. Insurance is a contract. You'll need to speak to your insurer, and if necessary, to one of the principals to see if there is any leeway. Much the same with VED. Cancel and get the refund. If the van doesn't sell, tax it anew. You say you have ordered a new van. If your's sticks, you may end up with two. Were that to happen, would you leave the existing van with the dealer on sale or return indefinitely, or take it back? But, what then? We put ours up for sale with a dealer, but did not order the replacement until it sold. Under your circumstances I'm inclined to agree that p/x might be the simpler, and more secure, route to adopt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Hymervan, I did something similar to what you are doing, except thet it was for delivery of a new car. I let the dealer have the car early, as part exchange, to get the best deal possible. I was not going to use it whilst out of the UK for a few weeks and collect the new car when I returned to the UK. Two problems arose, firstly they had sold my car, not a problem in itself but the new car was delayed by 2 months so I was without a vehicle. The dealer would not loan me a car to cover the delay. So it was public transport and pushbike. Secondly he held the money,possesion and 9/10's spring to mind. Eventually I took delivery of my new car and was much relieved. Little did I know that the dealer was in financial trouble and went bust 2 weeks later. So by the skin of my teeth (2 weeks) I got away with it. Similar situation with the Crown Currency Saga, I got my money just a couple of days before they stopped trading. I was too trusting and very lucky to get away with it BUT never again. So PLEASE listen to the experienced members of the forum and their good advice " Trade it in or sell it your self " Tooooo many pitfalls any other way. Good Luck Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 There were previous posts where an owner came to a similar arrangement with the dealer and had the van parked in his line up. The dealer then went bust. The recievers hung onto the motorhome for some considerable time if my memory is correct. Not sure about the eventual outcome other than it was messy. I would not do it. Either sell the van privately or part-ex it with the dealer would be my advice. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 For what its worth I agree with Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Hymervan If you still intend to go down this path, I offer you some text which (subject to your Legal Advisor's approval) should be useful to include in any Contract. "The Motorhome (Reg.No.& VIN No.) held on behalf of the Legal Owner (Name, Address & telephone No.) by the Vendor and retained at the Vendor’s premises. The Vendor shall risk, identify and hold the Goods as Bailee and in fiduciary capacity for the Legal Owner until such time as Sale is effected to a bona-fide Purchaser. In the event of any Bankruptcy, Liquidation, Winding-Up Order and/or Receivership Proceedings against the Vendor, the Legal Owner reserves the right of entry into any Premises to enable full recovery of the Motorhome, without impedence by any Liquidator or Administrator. who may be appointed to act in such event." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I went through a similar exercise some years ago where the dealer had my van well in advance ot the new van being built and supplied to him. We did draft an agreement - can't recall exactly what was in there now but it was much as Brian has listed - and the van did sell before the new one arrived at his premises. The basis of the agreement was that he gave me (effectively) a minimum trade in price and agreed to share the balance of anything above that price when it sold. Firstly, he never, ever declared how much the van sold for but said it was no more than the price we agreed. Second he not only kept all the money until the new van arrived he did not pay the balance of my finance on the old van until some weeks after the sale and purchase had gone through. Even then it was as a result of my pressing him along with the finance house who were aware by then of the situation and were re-financing the new van. The salesman concerned maintained first that he had sent the cheque to them ('on my daughter's life' he said) but that the owner had told him to hang onto it. Thirdly, he didn't pay the balance to the converter for the new van either! It all got a bit messy and confrontational in the end when, a few days after taking delivery, I took the new van back to the converter for a couple of small snags doing and he 'seized' it there and then. Contact was made with the selling dealer and it ended by the salesman driving to the converters to deliver the money they owed him and my taking back possession of the van. The owner of the business, when I spoke to him, blamed it all on the salesman but I have to say, I still see the same salesman on the company stand at shows and when our eyes meet he averts them very quickly. It can be a harsh lesson. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 My first reply should have been of course he's willing to do that, but given the potential pitfalls forgive me saying you'd be an idiot to do that. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Hymerman, Are you in to deep that all of our comments are now pretty pointless ? or can you just walk away from the dealer with your van at no cost to yourself ? Who has your van now ? and finally have you ordered a new van and if so how was your deposit paid ? If you can walk away I suggest that you do just that and start again with either a private sale or a normal part exchange with either this dealer of possibly and maybee preferably another dealer. All of us on the site have your interests at heart, but in order for us to be usefull, I think that we need answers to the above questions. Mike *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 If the dealer goes bankrupt and you can prove that 'you' are the owner of the vehicle and not the dealer then you make arrangements with the liquidator to redeem your goods. The liquidator can only sell the dealer's possessions NOT other people's goods, but you must have concrete proof that the van is yours. The onus is on you. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 I have been reading and absorbing the copious advice which this thread has attracted the majority of it being very good,detailed and relevant. My original post was focussed on relatively narrow issues and that was because I was very well aware of the potential dangers caused by the insolvecy of the dealer. I appreciate the level of anxiety that the some posters have shown and I appreciate that this is caused by genuine concern for my financial welfare, a concern which I share. I dont want to ventilate deal specific details or personal issues on the forum but in order to answer questions raised and perhaps allay fears :- 1. I NEED neither to sell nor to buy and have committed to neither. 2. There are two possible selling dealers both of which are extrermely sound financially. 3. Personal circumstances are likely to prevent us using the Van this year so it may make sense to dispose of it ahead of receiving the new van. Thanks very much for all contributions. I will make a decision shortly and post the final outcomes when they are known. On a diferent but related issue. Consumer Credit Act protection does not as I understand it apply to purchases over £30,000 so in many cases paying a deposit by credit card will not enhance protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 I said that I would advise the final outcome. It is quite simply that I have achieved a private sale and I am now Vanless. We plan to buy a new Van next year from a converter not a million miles from Anstruther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugga Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 HymerVan - 2011-08-18 7:34 AM I said that I would advise the final outcome. It is quite simply that I have achieved a private sale and I am now Vanless. We plan to buy a new Van next year from a converter not a million miles from Anstruther. Sorry your vanless, but well done for selling your motorhome, I should think you are very relieved :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 a wise move.... I would buy over the winter and sell in the summer if you can :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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